Top 6 Winger Acquisition Thread

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Re: Top 6 Winger Acquisition Thread

Postby Shakes on Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:40 pm

Obligatory because of Satan mention:

Image

My 2 cents: Satan didn't produce much with Sid (or anyone) because he was so bad, he got sent down. Obviously, he redeemed himself by riding buses for a few weeks and then making a nice contribution to the Cup run. But not a good example for any "Sid doesn't make players better" argument.
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Re: Top 6 Winger Acquisition Thread

Postby pcm on Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:51 pm

Definitely Malkin's "style" is more specific, and thus seems to require a certain skillset to mesh well with. IMO he does best with a sniper (Sykora, Neal) and a puck-fetcher, (Malone, Kunitz). Jokinen excels at the puck-possession game and so allows that line to play keep away with the puck, but once they lose it, Malkin is the only guy who can get it back.

Sid on the other hand plays a much more simple style, and so can play well with guys who are good on the cycle or have some speed in transition or even just a wicked shot and decent hockey awareness... but preferably at least 2 of the above.

It can take guys a little whilie to figure out the difference between playing with Sid and playing on the 3rd line, but honestly, I don't think Dupuis' loss there is anything more than losing a top 9 winger. Gibbons and Megna are both scoring at a much higher rate than Dupuis was this season...
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Re: Top 6 Winger Acquisition Thread

Postby Jim on Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:34 pm

MRandall25 wrote:Wait, did someone say Sid doesn't make the players around him better, but Malkin does?

Does not compute. Colby Armstrong is a prime example. Also could consider Kunitz and Dupuis, both of which were nowhere near this level of play on other teams.

That's just an asinine thought. If anything, I'd argue it's the opposite: Malkin has had less of an effect on the guys he plays with than Crosby has. Remember all the talk about putting Kunitz on Malkin's line because he couldn't play with anyone else last year?


I do not think that either one of them, Crosby or Malkin, has shown a real knack of making anyone better. Armstrong might be the only argument for either center. Although this year is a little different, Kunitz's stats have not really changed at all between the last 4.5 years with Pittsburgh and the 3.5 with Anaheim. Dupuis' increase in production is usually attributed to his off-ice dedication. Dupuis' diet and exercise and training. Neal was basically a 30 goal guy in Dallas so he was no slacker himself. Bumping to a 40 goal guy could be explained at least partially due to system and him just getting into the prime of his career, he left Dallas at 23 years old don't forget.

If you look at all of the wingers that Crosby and Malkin have had over their career... and you can only pick out ONE sure fire "better" (Armstrong) and two "maybe better" players (Dupuis and Neal)... that is a very low percentage.
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Re: Top 6 Winger Acquisition Thread

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:41 pm

I'd say this is the 3rd season that Kunitz has been drastically better numberwise than any other point in his career.
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Re: Top 6 Winger Acquisition Thread

Postby pcm on Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:49 pm

Seems like people's expectations for a player "making their linemates better" is turning a trashcan or Robbie Brown into a 50 goal scorer.
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Re: Top 6 Winger Acquisition Thread

Postby columbia on Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:51 pm

What's the exact definition of making someone else a better player?
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Re: Top 6 Winger Acquisition Thread

Postby knives of ice on Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:55 pm

BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:
Defence21 wrote:
BurghersAndDogsSports wrote:This isn't a knock on anyone but an honest question:

Can someone explain to me how any of these rumors make sense for us in terms of the cap? Everyone keeps saying LTIR credits but even with those we are way less than a million under the cap, around $500,000 I think. Understanding that you only take on a portion of the salary because there are not a ton of games left, still for us to even consider Moulson and Ott (and I personally want nothing to do with either especially based on what we would have to trade) we have to send quite a bit of salary back.

Or I am really missing something here?

You're not missing anything, but you've got to understand that there are a few guys that are expendable on this team and can be traded/waived/demoted to create additional space. Take Pyatt, for example. If he doesn't work out, you replace him and you've got enough room to add a player of a comparable cap hit. Same with Kobasew. You've got to figure one of Megna or Gibbons gets returned to the AHL when Bennett gets back from injury. That clears some additional space. What about Engelland and/or Bortuzzo? Both are expendable and could go, given that Despres could be recalled in a pinch to be the 6th defenseman if needed.

There's cap space to be created if Shero has intentions of bolstering his roster. It's not in clear view, but it's there.


Ok cool. Thanks.

Even looking at replacing some dollars like that it still just doesn't seem to be a ton of money unless someone with a decent sized contracts goes - and I am referring to some of the rumors of higher salaried players not just the depth guys. Adding a player with an over $3 million hit plus a depth guy or two making $1 million still just doesn't seem likely to me without waving bye bye to Nisky.



the penguins have plenty of cap space i believe from an article i read, well plenty for a trade deadline. assuming Vokoun doesn't play the entire year they have his salary from LTIR and all the injuries from LTIR to work with. plus, at the deadline only the remaining portion of what a player is owed that year counts against the cap. a 4 million or so per year player is only owed around 500k for the rest of the year.
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Re: Top 6 Winger Acquisition Thread

Postby Gaucho on Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:55 pm

Helping them to inflated stats.

The Pens don't need Sid and Geno to make players better. The key is to find guys who complement them, and with Kunitz, Duper, and Neal that's exactly what Shero has been able to accomplish.
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Re: Top 6 Winger Acquisition Thread

Postby columbia on Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:58 pm

Gaucho wrote:Helping them to inflated stats.


Yeah, that's what people seem to go on.

Does Crosby place Kunitz in a position to score far more often than say Sutter would? Absolutely.
Kunitz still has to bury it and that's independent of Crosby's skill level.
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Re: Top 6 Winger Acquisition Thread

Postby malksby8771 on Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:14 pm

I'd trade a first for moulson. He's a recent 30 goal scorer with a cap hit of 3.1 million, we can't possibly beat that as far as rentals are concerned. Whether we should trade for a rental or a young guy with some term is another story.
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Re: Top 6 Winger Acquisition Thread

Postby Gaucho on Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:19 pm

That seems like way too much for a poor man's James Neal who's useless at even strength and not even going to play on the 1st PP.
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Re: Top 6 Winger Acquisition Thread

Postby malksby8771 on Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:20 pm

Late to the conversation here on both topics my apologies, but malkin clearly made Neal a better player. He's second in the nhl with 1.22 points per game and fourth in the nhl with 0.47 goals per game. No offense to brad Richards, but he didn't make Neal a goal per every 2 games player and certainly not a point per game player. Kudos to geno for helping Neal reach his full potential here. Who's to say Crosby can't do the same to our next (hopefully young) trade acquisition?
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Re: Top 6 Winger Acquisition Thread

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:25 pm

Neal also came to Pittsburgh early in his 20s. I added him to the list of players that Malkin made look better, but i'm not sure if thats what happened now that i think about it.
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Re: Top 6 Winger Acquisition Thread

Postby Gaucho on Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:27 pm

I'd say Neal simply became a better player on his own and thus turned out to be the perfect complementary wing for Geno.

Semantics.
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Re: Top 6 Winger Acquisition Thread

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:31 pm

Neal put up similar numbers on Sid's wing with Geno out, IIRC
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Re: Top 6 Winger Acquisition Thread

Postby Defence21 on Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:33 pm

malksby8771 wrote:I'd trade a first for moulson. He's a recent 30 goal scorer with a cap hit of 3.1 million, we can't possibly beat that as far as rentals are concerned. Whether we should trade for a rental or a young guy with some term is another story.

But why does this team need more scoring from the top-two lines? They are fourth line the league in scoring. Regardless of Crosby's right winger, his line will produce. And, if it doesn't, it won't be because the winger is bad, but rather the opposition is shutting the line down, as Boston did in the playoffs. The Penguins need depth. They need a third liner that can produce some points and play a physical game. I'd give a 1st for the right guy for this role.
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Re: Top 6 Winger Acquisition Thread

Postby malksby8771 on Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:38 pm

And yes to whomever inquired, we have much more cap space than what capgeek has currently listed. We have 28 players on the roster. After sending down Connor, gibbons etc and waiving kobasew (I hope) and possibly sending down bortuzzo if necessary, that's about 3 million total in space plus the 4.6M LTIR accrued space. Assuming vokoun returns after the deadline, we'd still be able to rent virtually any one player with a decent sized cap hit or any two players with small hits
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Re: Top 6 Winger Acquisition Thread

Postby no name on Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:58 pm

WHat is the big deal with who Sid and Geno make better???? Ok some players gel with great players some don't. Its really that simple.

For the playoffs i don't think we have any inhouse options for Sid s wing that would suffice for a long playoff run. They got no experience and toughness to play against the likes of Boston, Chicago or Anahem. Shero needs to find a guy with size some grit, and plays a well rounded game (both ends of the ice). Jokinen... unless Shero can find another guy like that we can stick with Jussi.
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Re: Top 6 Winger Acquisition Thread

Postby pcm on Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:03 pm

Like Brandon Saad?
Bennett is listed as taller and heavier, fwiw.
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Re: Top 6 Winger Acquisition Thread

Postby DesertPenguin on Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:11 pm

Circling back to Chris Stewart out of StL. He is in Hitchcock's doghouse again, playing 4th line minutes. The fact remains though, he is a young power foward and a proven goal scorer, under contract through next season at a little over 4m. His issue is consistency, but when he is on he is excellent. One would think playing on Sid's line would get his attention. Seems like a guy that needs a change of scenery.

Now, can we afford him? Barely, but yes. If Vokoun does not come back, we can fit him if we move one of Engo, Pyatt or Bortuzzo in the deal. Our minimal cap space is skewed by having Conner, Ebbett, Kobasew, Gibbons, Megna all eating up space.

FORWARDS
Chris Kunitz ($3.725m) / Evgeni Malkin ($8.700m) / James Neal ($5.000m)
Jussi Jokinen ($2.100m) / Sidney Crosby ($8.700m) / Chris Stewart ($4.150m)
Taylor Pyatt ($1.550m) / Brandon Sutter ($2.067m) / Beau Bennett ($0.900m)
Tanner Glass ($1.100m) / Joe Vitale ($0.550m) / Craig Adams ($0.700m)
DEFENSEMEN
Paul Martin ($5.000m) / Brooks Orpik ($3.750m)
Kris Letang ($3.500m) / Rob Scuderi ($3.375m)
Matt Niskanen ($2.300m) / Olli Maatta ($0.894m)
Robert Bortuzzo ($0.600m) / Deryk Engelland ($0.567m)
GOALTENDERS
Marc-Andre Fleury ($5.000m)
Jeff Zatkoff ($0.538m)
LTIR
Pascal Dupuis ($3.750m)
Tomas Vokoun ($2.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2013-14 crunched using simulation date of 2014-03-05)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): -$465,000

If Vokoun comes back, you need to move someone like Orpik to make it work.

FORWARDS
Chris Kunitz ($3.725m) / Evgeni Malkin ($8.700m) / James Neal ($5.000m)
Jussi Jokinen ($2.100m) / Sidney Crosby ($8.700m) / Chris Stewart ($4.150m)
Taylor Pyatt ($1.550m) / Brandon Sutter ($2.067m) / Beau Bennett ($0.900m)
Tanner Glass ($1.100m) / Joe Vitale ($0.550m) / Craig Adams ($0.700m)
DEFENSEMEN
Paul Martin ($5.000m) / Robert Bortuzzo ($0.600m)
Kris Letang ($3.500m) / Rob Scuderi ($3.375m)
Matt Niskanen ($2.300m) / Olli Maatta ($0.894m)
Deryk Engelland ($0.567m)
GOALTENDERS
Marc-Andre Fleury ($5.000m)
Jeff Zatkoff ($0.538m)
Tomas Vokoun ($2.000m)
LTIR
Pascal Dupuis ($3.750m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2013-14 crunched using simulation date of 2014-03-05)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $1,285,000

That even leaves you enough room to call up Despres or upgrade Pyatt at 3rd LW. If it's me, I make a move for someone like Ott or Kulemin for the 3rd line and call it a day. If you really want Despres up, move Engo or Bort to make room for him in one of those deals.
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Re: Top 6 Winger Acquisition Thread

Postby Defence21 on Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:13 pm

DesertPenguin wrote:Circling back to Chris Stewart out of StL. He is in Hitchcock's doghouse again, playing 4th line minutes. The fact remains though, he is a young power foward and a proven goal scorer, under contract through next season at a little over 4m. His issue is consistency, but when he is on he is excellent. One would think playing on Sid's line would get his attention. Seems like a guy that needs a change of scenery.

Now, can we afford him? Barely, but yes. If Vokoun does not come back, we can fit him if we move one of Engo, Pyatt or Bortuzzo in the deal. Our minimal cap space is skewed by having Conner, Ebbett, Kobasew, Gibbons, Megna all eating up space.

FORWARDS
Chris Kunitz ($3.725m) / Evgeni Malkin ($8.700m) / James Neal ($5.000m)
Jussi Jokinen ($2.100m) / Sidney Crosby ($8.700m) / Chris Stewart ($4.150m)
Taylor Pyatt ($1.550m) / Brandon Sutter ($2.067m) / Beau Bennett ($0.900m)
Tanner Glass ($1.100m) / Joe Vitale ($0.550m) / Craig Adams ($0.700m)
DEFENSEMEN
Paul Martin ($5.000m) / Brooks Orpik ($3.750m)
Kris Letang ($3.500m) / Rob Scuderi ($3.375m)
Matt Niskanen ($2.300m) / Olli Maatta ($0.894m)
Robert Bortuzzo ($0.600m) / Deryk Engelland ($0.567m)
GOALTENDERS
Marc-Andre Fleury ($5.000m)
Jeff Zatkoff ($0.538m)
LTIR
Pascal Dupuis ($3.750m)
Tomas Vokoun ($2.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2013-14 crunched using simulation date of 2014-03-05)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): -$465,000

If Vokoun comes back, you need to move someone like Orpik to make it work.

FORWARDS
Chris Kunitz ($3.725m) / Evgeni Malkin ($8.700m) / James Neal ($5.000m)
Jussi Jokinen ($2.100m) / Sidney Crosby ($8.700m) / Chris Stewart ($4.150m)
Taylor Pyatt ($1.550m) / Brandon Sutter ($2.067m) / Beau Bennett ($0.900m)
Tanner Glass ($1.100m) / Joe Vitale ($0.550m) / Craig Adams ($0.700m)
DEFENSEMEN
Paul Martin ($5.000m) / Robert Bortuzzo ($0.600m)
Kris Letang ($3.500m) / Rob Scuderi ($3.375m)
Matt Niskanen ($2.300m) / Olli Maatta ($0.894m)
Deryk Engelland ($0.567m)
GOALTENDERS
Marc-Andre Fleury ($5.000m)
Jeff Zatkoff ($0.538m)
Tomas Vokoun ($2.000m)
LTIR
Pascal Dupuis ($3.750m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2013-14 crunched using simulation date of 2014-03-05)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $1,285,000

That even leaves you enough room to call up Despres or upgrade Pyatt at 3rd LW. If it's me, I make a move for someone like Ott or Kulemin for the 3rd line and call it a day. If you really want Despres up, move Engo or Bort to make room for him in one of those deals.

I don't want a lazy floater on this team. The Penguins need go-getters, hard-workers, and players who understand what it will take to win. Stewart at $4+ million is NOT what this team needs, nor what I want to see them get. I'll be ticked if this is the case, quite honestly.
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Re: Top 6 Winger Acquisition Thread

Postby MRandall25 on Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:14 pm

Chris Stewart would probably end up worse than Alex Ponikarovsky, and that's saying something.

I want nothing to do with Chris Stewart. He's already changed scenery, and that has done nothing. He's a lazy, feckless player.
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Re: Top 6 Winger Acquisition Thread

Postby DesertPenguin on Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:20 pm

MRandall25 wrote:Chris Stewart would probably end up worse than Alex Ponikarovsky, and that's saying something.

I want nothing to do with Chris Stewart. He's already changed scenery, and that has done nothing. He's a lazy, feckless player.


Remember, Guerin was being called lazy and uninterested with the Islanders before we traded for him. He obviously has issues with Hitchcock, but Byslma's style is completely different. Maybe it doesn't work here indefinitely but I think they could make it work for a year or two.
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Re: Top 6 Winger Acquisition Thread

Postby Gaucho on Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:22 pm

Rather have Kadri than Stewart.
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Re: Top 6 Winger Acquisition Thread

Postby Defence21 on Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:32 pm

DesertPenguin wrote:
MRandall25 wrote:Chris Stewart would probably end up worse than Alex Ponikarovsky, and that's saying something.

I want nothing to do with Chris Stewart. He's already changed scenery, and that has done nothing. He's a lazy, feckless player.


Remember, Guerin was being called lazy and uninterested with the Islanders before we traded for him. He obviously has issues with Hitchcock, but Byslma's style is completely different. Maybe it doesn't work here indefinitely but I think they could make it work for a year or two.

The difference is that Guerin had a storied career that included a Stanley Cup, Olympic experience, All Star appearances, team captaincies, etc. He had essentially done it all. Stewart already needed a change of scenery, and when he got it, he fell into the same lazy pattern. He's never scored 30 goals (28 is his max), and his max points is 64. His other seasons read: 19, 53, 30, 36, 25. Basically, his points are in line with Kunitz and/or Dupuis, for the most part. The difference? Stewart has proven time and again that he's not willing to work hard. Putting him with Crosby might boost his numbers, but it's not going to change his game and more importantly his motivation. He needs to do that himself. Until he does that, he'll remain the most overpaid fourth liner in hockey.

I didn't like the Guerin trade at the time, but it worked out. Maybe the same would happen for Stewart, but the evidence is far less compelling in this case, and I'm not willing to take the $4 million gamble when there are other lower risk options out there that likely will give a higher reward for less money.
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