Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby Jim on Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:10 pm

Puck-Lurker wrote:
longtimefan wrote:IF you have a subscription, I'd highly recommend Matt Gatzka's series on advanced stats on DK's site. I guess it depends on what weight you give the advanced stats, but I find it compelling. There's no question the Pens seem to prefer starting the season with Sid and the kids, to see if they continue to produce the way they did at the end of last season and in the finals. There's also been grumblings for a while that Crosby doesn't like playing with Hornqvist, but Horny split his regular season time almost equally between Sid and Geno. 312.12 minutes with Sid, 301.20 with Geno. A look at the advanced stats paints a surprising picture.

(( please see original post for excellent reading material ))


My eyes have lied to me!

That's good stuff, thank you. :thumb:

I am now completely out of ideas to bring/trade in a C and get Sprong to dress... :cry:


People have brainwashed themselves into thinking that a player needs to be one of the top-10 fastest skaters in the league in order to make any impact on the Penguins. Speed, speed, speed, speed, speed... that is all that goes through people's minds. People think that Hagelin is top-6 because he has speed. Counter to that, if a guy doesn't have speed he obviously must not be worth having...
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby pens_CT on Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:20 pm

Jim wrote:
Puck-Lurker wrote:
longtimefan wrote:IF you have a subscription, I'd highly recommend Matt Gatzka's series on advanced stats on DK's site. I guess it depends on what weight you give the advanced stats, but I find it compelling. There's no question the Pens seem to prefer starting the season with Sid and the kids, to see if they continue to produce the way they did at the end of last season and in the finals. There's also been grumblings for a while that Crosby doesn't like playing with Hornqvist, but Horny split his regular season time almost equally between Sid and Geno. 312.12 minutes with Sid, 301.20 with Geno. A look at the advanced stats paints a surprising picture.

(( please see original post for excellent reading material ))


My eyes have lied to me!

That's good stuff, thank you. :thumb:

I am now completely out of ideas to bring/trade in a C and get Sprong to dress... :cry:


People have brainwashed themselves into thinking that a player needs to be one of the top-10 fastest skaters in the league in order to make any impact on the Penguins. Speed, speed, speed, speed, speed... that is all that goes through people's minds. People think that Hagelin is top-6 because he has speed. Counter to that, if a guy doesn't have speed he obviously must not be worth having...


I don't think it's the sole requirement, but if given a choice, and all other things being equal, I believe that Sullivan would prefer the better skater over a plodder.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby Jim on Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:33 pm

pens_CT wrote:I don't think it's the sole requirement, but if given a choice, and all other things being equal, I believe that Sullivan would prefer the better skater over a plodder.


Well, if all other things were equal, then obviously.

If all other things were equal, but one guy hit harder, you would want him.
If all other things were equal, but one guy shot harder, you would want him.
If all other things were equal, but one guy passed better, you would want him.
If all other things were equal, but one guy makes $3M less, you would want him.

But everything else is rarely equal.

Most of the time when posters being up players to bring in, the first thing said is "He's fast" or "I don't want him, he's not a fast skater"

when I am going for guys on PlayStation I want fast guys. I don't really care about anything else on there. But real life is very different and a team full of Kraft's and Fata's won't get you very far.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby pens_CT on Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:53 pm

Jim wrote:
pens_CT wrote:I don't think it's the sole requirement, but if given a choice, and all other things being equal, I believe that Sullivan would prefer the better skater over a plodder.


Well, if all other things were equal, then obviously.

If all other things were equal, but one guy hit harder, you would want him.
If all other things were equal, but one guy shot harder, you would want him.
If all other things were equal, but one guy passed better, you would want him.
If all other things were equal, but one guy makes $3M less, you would want him.

But everything else is rarely equal.

Most of the time when posters being up players to bring in, the first thing said is "He's fast" or "I don't want him, he's not a fast skater"

when I am going for guys on PlayStation I want fast guys. I don't really care about anything else on there. But real life is very different and a team full of Kraft's and Fata's won't get you very far.


My point is that Sullivan wants to play fast and prefers guys who can skate. You can't send out eighteen Hagelins and expect to win with speed guys only who have no hands. Likewise you can't send a bunch of Hornqvists out there either.
In his system if you can't skate you have to add something whether it's defense or battle level as he calls it. When they look to add players via trade I'm sure that speed rates pretty high on the list, but so long as you bring some other characteristics that works in his style of play it's not the only attribute.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby longtimefan on Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:28 pm

pens_CT wrote:
Jim wrote:
pens_CT wrote:I don't think it's the sole requirement, but if given a choice, and all other things being equal, I believe that Sullivan would prefer the better skater over a plodder.


Well, if all other things were equal, then obviously.

If all other things were equal, but one guy hit harder, you would want him.
If all other things were equal, but one guy shot harder, you would want him.
If all other things were equal, but one guy passed better, you would want him.
If all other things were equal, but one guy makes $3M less, you would want him.

But everything else is rarely equal.

Most of the time when posters being up players to bring in, the first thing said is "He's fast" or "I don't want him, he's not a fast skater"

when I am going for guys on PlayStation I want fast guys. I don't really care about anything else on there. But real life is very different and a team full of Kraft's and Fata's won't get you very far.


My point is that Sullivan wants to play fast and prefers guys who can skate. You can't send out eighteen Hagelins and expect to win with speed guys only who have no hands. Likewise you can't send a bunch of Hornqvists out there either.
In his system if you can't skate you have to add something whether it's defense or battle level as he calls it. When they look to add players via trade I'm sure that speed rates pretty high on the list, but so long as you bring some other characteristics that works in his style of play it's not the only attribute.


This brings back memories of the Badger Bob Johnson-Scotty Bowman conundrum. Very different coaches. Both preferred big and fast players like Kevin Stevens. If push came to shove however, Badger favored speed, whereas Scotty preferred muscle. During Badger's year here, Mark Recchi became a young superstar, and Paul Coffey was the undisputed linchpin of the defense. Although Badger was also a huge proponent of bringing in Ulf Samuellsson and Ronnie Francis to help balance the scale. After the first Cup, and the unfortunate death of Badger, Scotty took over a no win situation. Recchi struggled to the point of being moved to center for a period of time, and Bowman played Coffey at left wing. The team struggled to secure a playoff spot, and eventually traded Recchi and Coffey to bring in Tocchet and Kjell Samuelsson. The type of players who better fit into Scotty's scheme. Of course, the trade was instrumental in securing the Pens' second straight Cup win.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby Great58 on Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:46 am

pens_CT wrote:
Jim wrote:
pens_CT wrote:I don't think it's the sole requirement, but if given a choice, and all other things being equal, I believe that Sullivan would prefer the better skater over a plodder.


Well, if all other things were equal, then obviously.

If all other things were equal, but one guy hit harder, you would want him.
If all other things were equal, but one guy shot harder, you would want him.
If all other things were equal, but one guy passed better, you would want him.
If all other things were equal, but one guy makes $3M less, you would want him.

But everything else is rarely equal.

Most of the time when posters being up players to bring in, the first thing said is "He's fast" or "I don't want him, he's not a fast skater"

when I am going for guys on PlayStation I want fast guys. I don't really care about anything else on there. But real life is very different and a team full of Kraft's and Fata's won't get you very far.


My point is that Sullivan wants to play fast and prefers guys who can skate. You can't send out eighteen Hagelins and expect to win with speed guys only who have no hands. Likewise you can't send a bunch of Hornqvists out there either.
In his system if you can't skate you have to add something whether it's defense or battle level as he calls it. When they look to add players via trade I'm sure that speed rates pretty high on the list, but so long as you bring some other characteristics that works in his style of play it's not the only attribute.

They even sought someone who could skate when they went looking for "protection" and brought in Reaves.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby no name on Tue Sep 12, 2017 3:21 pm

Its not about speed, speed and pushing the pace are slightly different. Kunitz, Hainsey and Horney are not the fastest, but when need be they knew how to "push the pace" covert their guy and disrupt the play, get in the lane. Force the guy with the puck to make the play the fastest. Sure speed helps but coachable players and players who apply themselves are just as important.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby ville5 on Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:16 pm

http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/31-t ... situation/
6. We’ll do more stuff from the media tour in a little bit, but let’s look at some of the other current storylines. Sounds like Pittsburgh has re-ignited its search for another centre. Not sure about names. Have heard rumblings about Detroit’s Riley Sheahan, but not specific to the Penguins.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby ville5 on Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:18 pm

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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby Jim on Tue Sep 12, 2017 5:26 pm

ville5 wrote:http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/marc-andre-fleury-waived-no-trade-go-calgary/
MAF would've waived for the Flames.


He probably would have been okay with nearly any team.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby FLPensFan on Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:42 pm

ville5 wrote:http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/31-thoughts-making-sense-matt-duchenes-situation/
6. We’ll do more stuff from the media tour in a little bit, but let’s look at some of the other current storylines. Sounds like Pittsburgh has re-ignited its search for another centre. Not sure about names. Have heard rumblings about Detroit’s Riley Sheahan, but not specific to the Penguins.

Now that the winds have died down here in Florida (if only I had power at my home).......

There was a small snippet last week in DK's Friday Insider piece, saying that several players that Yohe spoke to want the 3C to be an excellent penalty killer:

I spoke with a couple of players about the mystery third-line center who will be coming to Pittsburgh presumably at some point this fall. They only want one thing: A guy who can kill penalties, and kill them well.

Yohe also asked a veteran player about Rutherford finding a 3C, and that player said they have total faith in Rutherford. He has never let this team down or made a bad move as far as this vet was concerned.

Outside of those pieces of feedback, if the Penguins were to be forced to use an internal option to start the season, I would keep my eye on DiPauli. I only got a chance to watch parts of two games of the rookie tournament, but the guy was all over the place, in a good way. Seemed every time his line was on the ice, his line had the puck and his name was being mentioned. Some have described him as a center version of Bryan Rust, speedy with a little bit of an edge. He's a really good skater, and supposed to be pretty good defensively. Because of injury last year, he likely needs a half season in the AHL, but it wouldn't shock me if he was the internal 3C or even 4C candidate.

Same insider piece mentioned above also talked about Tommy Kuhnhackl. Brief and to the point, he played with a serious groin injury for long stretches of the season, and didn't really recover from it until July. He knows he has something to prove coming into camp.

I have never heard Penguins management talk about trading Maatta, but if Pouliot has a really good start of camp, I still could see the Penguins trying something like Maatta and Sheary for Duchene (with maybe a pick or Jarry added). I don't think Rutherford is going to come near Sakic's price, and nobody will. I do think the Penguins would rather just see Maatta improve, but, if Pouliot, the better skater, could finally get it together like is being talked up, maybe the Penguins finally pull the trigger for what would be at least 2 more good attempts at the cup with Duchene at 3C guaranteed. In Friedman's 31 thoughts, the video on that page had Friedman saying he still thinks the Penguins are on the fringe/ one of the teams looking at Duchene if the price is right.

Going in the complete opposite direction with Duchene, consider this. Taylor Hall is a .84 points per game player over his career. In 453 games, he has 152 goals and 381 points. Matt Duchene is a .73 points per game player over his career. In 572 games, he has 174 goals and 418 points. If a year or two after the fact, many think Hall for Larsson was a fair deal, why in the world does Sakic think he can get X, Y, Z plus for Duchene. Duchene has 2 years left at 6M per. Hall had 4 years left at 6M per at the time of his trade. Hall was thought to be just as valuable to Edmonton before McDavid and Draisaitl arrived. Hall was the best out of him, Eberle, and RNH. Duchene isn't better than McKinnon, and is likely on par with Landeskog. Asking for what Sakic is likely asking is utter nonsense. Duchene for Slavin, Duchene for Hamonic, Duchene for Ellis/Ekholm/Josi, or Duchene for Jones/Werenski would have all been fair deals. Duchene for Schultz from a Pittsburgh standpoint, however, Schultz is too much like Barrie for that to be a match. Just some straight up perspective on Duchene.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby pens_CT on Tue Sep 12, 2017 7:17 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
ville5 wrote:http://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/31-thoughts-making-sense-matt-duchenes-situation/
6. We’ll do more stuff from the media tour in a little bit, but let’s look at some of the other current storylines. Sounds like Pittsburgh has re-ignited its search for another centre. Not sure about names. Have heard rumblings about Detroit’s Riley Sheahan, but not specific to the Penguins.

Now that the winds have died down here in Florida (if only I had power at my home).......

There was a small snippet last week in DK's Friday Insider piece, saying that several players that Yohe spoke to want the 3C to be an excellent penalty killer:

I spoke with a couple of players about the mystery third-line center who will be coming to Pittsburgh presumably at some point this fall. They only want one thing: A guy who can kill penalties, and kill them well.

Yohe also asked a veteran player about Rutherford finding a 3C, and that player said they have total faith in Rutherford. He has never let this team down or made a bad move as far as this vet was concerned.

Outside of those pieces of feedback, if the Penguins were to be forced to use an internal option to start the season, I would keep my eye on DiPauli. I only got a chance to watch parts of two games of the rookie tournament, but the guy was all over the place, in a good way. Seemed every time his line was on the ice, his line had the puck and his name was being mentioned. Some have described him as a center version of Bryan Rust, speedy with a little bit of an edge. He's a really good skater, and supposed to be pretty good defensively. Because of injury last year, he likely needs a half season in the AHL, but it wouldn't shock me if he was the internal 3C or even 4C candidate.

Same insider piece mentioned above also talked about Tommy Kuhnhackl. Brief and to the point, he played with a serious groin injury for long stretches of the season, and didn't really recover from it until July. He knows he has something to prove coming into camp.

I have never heard Penguins management talk about trading Maatta, but if Pouliot has a really good start of camp, I still could see the Penguins trying something like Maatta and Sheary for Duchene (with maybe a pick or Jarry added). I don't think Rutherford is going to come near Sakic's price, and nobody will. I do think the Penguins would rather just see Maatta improve, but, if Pouliot, the better skater, could finally get it together like is being talked up, maybe the Penguins finally pull the trigger for what would be at least 2 more good attempts at the cup with Duchene at 3C guaranteed. In Friedman's 31 thoughts, the video on that page had Friedman saying he still thinks the Penguins are on the fringe/ one of the teams looking at Duchene if the price is right.

Going in the complete opposite direction with Duchene, consider this. Taylor Hall is a .84 points per game player over his career. In 453 games, he has 152 goals and 381 points. Matt Duchene is a .73 points per game player over his career. In 572 games, he has 174 goals and 418 points. If a year or two after the fact, many think Hall for Larsson was a fair deal, why in the world does Sakic think he can get X, Y, Z plus for Duchene. Duchene has 2 years left at 6M per. Hall had 4 years left at 6M per at the time of his trade. Hall was thought to be just as valuable to Edmonton before McDavid and Draisaitl arrived. Hall was the best out of him, Eberle, and RNH. Duchene isn't better than McKinnon, and is likely on par with Landeskog. Asking for what Sakic is likely asking is utter nonsense. Duchene for Slavin, Duchene for Hamonic, Duchene for Ellis/Ekholm/Josi, or Duchene for Jones/Werenski would have all been fair deals. Duchene for Schultz from a Pittsburgh standpoint, however, Schultz is too much like Barrie for that to be a match. Just some straight up perspective on Duchene.


I'm not holding my breath that Pouliot is going to contribute anything at the NHL level. If by some miracle he has a good camp Rutherford could certainly combine Maatta and Sheary for Duchene but as you pointed out that probably isn't good enough for Sakic. I think Colorado holds on to him unless Duchene takes it to the next level and doesn't report to camp.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby Henry Hank on Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:59 am

The idea of Pouliot making anyone expendable, let alone a guy who's played top 4 D minutes on a Cup team, is laughable.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby Owchar76 on Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:36 am

Henry Hank wrote:The idea of Pouliot making anyone expendable, let alone a guy who's played top 4 D minutes on a Cup team, is laughable.


If Pouliot does play well enough to earn a spot in the bottom pairing, is this so hard to envision?

Dumoulin Letang
Cole Schultz
Pouliot Hunwick

Doesn't seem that crazy to me. What would be crazy is having a 4.1 million dollar defenseman in our bottom pairing. Now, on the flip side, we are almost guaranteed to lose Cole next year. Maatta would obviously slide into that spot next year. I guess it's all about priorities in Rutherford's eyes.

As FLPensfan posted above, Sakic needs to come back to earth. If Hall only netted Larsson, why should Duchene net a top 4 D, a forward and a top prospect? Dream on Joe. If he's not relieved of his duties this year, something is wrong.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby Maestro on Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:15 am

I'd much rather have a $6mil "third line" center with Kessel on the RW, producing 3 deadly scoring lines and a shut-down nasty 4th line than a $4.1 mil 3rd pairing LD with two lines (3rd/4th) that won't be able to score much through the season and likely almost not at all in the playoffs.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby wondermoose on Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:15 am

There is nothing Pouliot can do during training camp or the first game or the first month or the first half of the season that could make any of their top four expendable.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby Defence21 on Wed Sep 13, 2017 11:47 am

wondermoose wrote:There is nothing Pouliot can do during training camp or the first game or the first month or the first half of the season that could make any of their top four expendable.

I might have missed it, but I don't see anyone suggesting a top-4 d-man could become expendable if Pouliot has a good camp. Maatta, by most accounts, is slated for the third pairing with Hunwick.

I'm not necessarily interested in trading Maatta, as I think he still has a lot more to show. I also have zero faith in Pouliot. That said, Ruhwedel and Pouliot (pending a good camp) would be fine splitting icetime as the 6th defender for most of the season, with a veteran coming to Pittsburgh sometime after January.

If getting a third line center capable of advancing the three scoring line system means dealing Maatta, I'd likely do it. That, however, assumes the return is worthwhile and precisely what the team is looking for.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:07 pm

Mackey has an article today slightly suggesting a Riley Sheahan for Derrick Pouliot trade. Says the Wings are likely shopping him, and Sheahan would likely be kind of a resurrection project like Schultz. Not a big Sheahan fan, but he is good defensively. 50% faceoff guy for his career, which is ok but not Cullen type levels. He'd be an ok pickup to start the season, but not sure I like him as a long term solution.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby pens_CT on Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:38 pm

FLPensFan wrote:Mackey has an article today slightly suggesting a Riley Sheahan for Derrick Pouliot trade. Says the Wings are likely shopping him, and Sheahan would likely be kind of a resurrection project like Schultz. Not a big Sheahan fan, but he is good defensively. 50% faceoff guy for his career, which is ok but not Cullen type levels. He'd be an ok pickup to start the season, but not sure I like him as a long term solution.


He's a guy they probably could have traded for in June since he has been rumored to be on the block since the trade deadline last year. Would certainly be a fall back kind of guy and for two million in a cap hit you are hoping his 3 goal output was a one year fluke. Not sure what the Wings would do with Poliout, since they have nine defensemen under contract. Seems like you could get Sheahan for just a pick.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby Jim on Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:40 pm

I'll give you a 4th if you keep 500k
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby Maestro on Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:05 pm

If Pouliot doesn't make the team then that deal makes sense as he'd likely be claimed. R.S. as the 4th center sounds good.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby pens_CT on Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:11 pm

Maestro wrote:If Pouliot doesn't make the team then that deal makes sense as he'd likely be claimed. R.S. as the 4th center sounds good.


They are not going to pay 2 million for a 4th line center. Now if you can have the Wings retain close to a million then that's a different situation.
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby Maestro on Wed Sep 13, 2017 7:14 pm

pens_CT wrote:
Maestro wrote:If Pouliot doesn't make the team then that deal makes sense as he'd likely be claimed. R.S. as the 4th center sounds good.


They are not going to pay 2 million for a 4th line center. Now if you can have the Wings retain close to a million then that's a different situation.


0 goals in the first 81 games last year would be too big of a gamble for me to say, 'hey Coach, here is your new #3 center. You're welcome.'
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby BONVIE on Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:34 pm

I do wonder if Rutherford is waiting on the Duchene situation. If Carolina gets him, they would need to move Staal. Colorado could conceivably facilitate such a move by first acquiring Staal, eating a portion of his money and then flipping him to Pittsburgh.
So, basic outline: Canes get Duchene, Pens get Staal and COL gets a package of assets from both teams, mostly from the Pens.
I’d have no interest in paying the freight on Duchene, but Jordan Staal for less than his current price? Now we can talk about Sheary and Maatta and a pick
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Re: Off-Season Discussion Thread 2017-2018

Postby thehockeyguru on Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:59 pm

BONVIE wrote:I do wonder if Rutherford is waiting on the Duchene situation. If Carolina gets him, they would need to move Staal. Colorado could conceivably facilitate such a move by first acquiring Staal, eating a portion of his money and then flipping him to Pittsburgh.
So, basic outline: Canes get Duchene, Pens get Staal and COL gets a package of assets from both teams, mostly from the Pens.
I’d have no interest in paying the freight on Duchene, but Jordan Staal for less than his current price? Now we can talk about Sheary and Maatta and a pick


Getting Staal would be terrible
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