2018 Summer Game Plan

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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Daniel on Wed May 16, 2018 2:55 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
dark_forces wrote:As far as the value of the players we're talking about being moved, what do you think the value of someone like Sheary actually is?
As far as draft picks are concerned, I'm thinking a second - but maybe the second is in 2019.
My preference would be another youngish player (under 27) who's caught in a numbers game with his current team. I'm thinking of a LW, who has speed, can kill penalties and chip in 10-12 goals. I just think we need a versatile LW for depth who can eventually replace Hagelin and fill Sheary's roster spot this season.

I don't disagree that a good young guy who has speed and PK ability would be good to add, but, IMO, the Penguins need another legitimate 20 goal scorer on the LW. For the past 3 years, Kessel and Hornqvist have each put up 20 or more goals from the RW. They haven't got that same level of production from the LW.

As far as Sheary, a late 2nd or a 3rd round pick is probably what could be expected. Maybe a late round pick and an above average (but not exceptional the teams best) prospect.

On the LW, we got 22 out of Guentzel this year. No other LW eclipsed 20 this year.
Last year, Sheary managed 23 goals, but no other LW hit that mark last year
The year before, nobody on the LW hit 20 goals.

The Penguins would be wise to pick up one more consistent LW. I expect Guentzel to continue the 20+ goals per season pace, but I'd like to see more from the LW position as a whole. It's all about matchups, and heading into next season, the Penguins expected top 3 RWs are all exclusive RWs in Kessel, Hornqvist, and Sprong.


If the LW is playing good defense, who cares if they score more than 20 goals? Sure, we'd like balance, but these are the last 3 seasons for scoring rank by team:

2017-18 - 3rd 3.29
2016-17 - 1st 3.39
2015-16 - 3rd 2.94

If the Pens can get a LW that score more than 20 without giving up defense, of course upgrade, but if they are scoring 20, someone else is likely scoring less.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby brwi on Wed May 16, 2018 3:02 pm

FLPensFan wrote:Skinner would be a great add to update the team speed. I have been saying that for 2 years now. But, if I'm Carolina, there isn't much the Penguins are going to offer me that makes me want to move him. I'm not taking a package centered around Kessel or Letang for him. In Kessel, why would I take a guy 5 or 6 years older, who is more expensive, and plays a similar game? With Slavin, Faulk, Hanafin, Pesce, Fleury, and Jake Bean in the fold, why would I want Letang over any of them.....again when he is 5-6 years older and more expensive.

If I'm Carolina, and the Penguins are asking about Skinner, I'm probably asking for Sprong and Jarry, and probably something else.


All of the above is very true, but I have two words for why it's possible to maybe get Skinner or Faulk away from the Canes without giving away the store: Don Waddell. The impossible becomes possible!

The bit about how everyone on the Canes is available except for Aho is meaningless. Almost every player without a NTC or modified one is available at the "right price."
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby thehockeyguru on Wed May 16, 2018 5:29 pm

So it was mentioned that Sheary would like bring a 2nd or 3rd, what would Letang fetch from a team like Detroit or Buffalo who were rumored to have interest last season?
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby dark_forces on Wed May 16, 2018 8:49 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:So it was mentioned that Sheary would like bring a 2nd or 3rd, what would Letang fetch from a team like Detroit or Buffalo who were rumored to have interest last season?

According to the TIOPS take on the Letang to Detroit scenario, they opine that Gustav Nyqvist and a first round pick (the one belonging vegas) may entice the Penguins. Nyqvist would look good next to Geno.
They also said that the Pens are open to offers on Letang.
The also offer Buffalo as a destination, but weren't sure what would work for the Pens coming back. They say Boterill wants desperately to bring in a winner and a leader.
They also mention Arizona (tocchet connection) and Florida as dark horse destinations. In Florida, they say Letang could play top 4 on the right side behind Ekblad.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby farnham16 on Wed May 16, 2018 9:14 pm

Either Sprong or Kessel is getting traded this summer. Sullivan isn't going to want both guys on the team. The are virtually the same exact player and its pretty obvious Sullivan doesn't like coaching either one of them.

My guess is Kessel. Rutherford takes advantage of his great regular season and maximizes profit.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby thehockeyguru on Wed May 16, 2018 9:18 pm

dark_forces wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:So it was mentioned that Sheary would like bring a 2nd or 3rd, what would Letang fetch from a team like Detroit or Buffalo who were rumored to have interest last season?

According to the TIOPS take on the Letang to Detroit scenario, they opine that Gustav Nyqvist and a first round pick (the one belonging vegas) may entice the Penguins. Nyqvist would look good next to Geno.
They also said that the Pens are open to offers on Letang.
The also offer Buffalo as a destination, but weren't sure what would work for the Pens coming back. They say Boterill wants desperately to bring in a winner and a leader.
They also mention Arizona (tocchet connection) and Florida as dark horse destinations. In Florida, they say Letang could play top 4 on the right side behind Ekblad.


Nyquist is a UFA after next season, would be nice to get someone back with a bit more term.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby FLPensFan on Wed May 16, 2018 9:50 pm

Daniel wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
dark_forces wrote:As far as the value of the players we're talking about being moved, what do you think the value of someone like Sheary actually is?
As far as draft picks are concerned, I'm thinking a second - but maybe the second is in 2019.
My preference would be another youngish player (under 27) who's caught in a numbers game with his current team. I'm thinking of a LW, who has speed, can kill penalties and chip in 10-12 goals. I just think we need a versatile LW for depth who can eventually replace Hagelin and fill Sheary's roster spot this season.

I don't disagree that a good young guy who has speed and PK ability would be good to add, but, IMO, the Penguins need another legitimate 20 goal scorer on the LW. For the past 3 years, Kessel and Hornqvist have each put up 20 or more goals from the RW. They haven't got that same level of production from the LW.

As far as Sheary, a late 2nd or a 3rd round pick is probably what could be expected. Maybe a late round pick and an above average (but not exceptional the teams best) prospect.

On the LW, we got 22 out of Guentzel this year. No other LW eclipsed 20 this year.
Last year, Sheary managed 23 goals, but no other LW hit that mark last year
The year before, nobody on the LW hit 20 goals.

The Penguins would be wise to pick up one more consistent LW. I expect Guentzel to continue the 20+ goals per season pace, but I'd like to see more from the LW position as a whole. It's all about matchups, and heading into next season, the Penguins expected top 3 RWs are all exclusive RWs in Kessel, Hornqvist, and Sprong.


If the LW is playing good defense, who cares if they score more than 20 goals? Sure, we'd like balance, but these are the last 3 seasons for scoring rank by team:

2017-18 - 3rd 3.29
2016-17 - 1st 3.39
2015-16 - 3rd 2.94

If the Pens can get a LW that score more than 20 without giving up defense, of course upgrade, but if they are scoring 20, someone else is likely scoring less.

It would be different if Kessel, Hornqvist, or Sprong could play both sides of center.....but they don't, so when your LW group is already weak, you are one injury away from fielding a really crappy LW group. It's about matchups and versatility.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Daniel on Wed May 16, 2018 10:41 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
Daniel wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
dark_forces wrote:As far as the value of the players we're talking about being moved, what do you think the value of someone like Sheary actually is?
As far as draft picks are concerned, I'm thinking a second - but maybe the second is in 2019.
My preference would be another youngish player (under 27) who's caught in a numbers game with his current team. I'm thinking of a LW, who has speed, can kill penalties and chip in 10-12 goals. I just think we need a versatile LW for depth who can eventually replace Hagelin and fill Sheary's roster spot this season.

I don't disagree that a good young guy who has speed and PK ability would be good to add, but, IMO, the Penguins need another legitimate 20 goal scorer on the LW. For the past 3 years, Kessel and Hornqvist have each put up 20 or more goals from the RW. They haven't got that same level of production from the LW.

As far as Sheary, a late 2nd or a 3rd round pick is probably what could be expected. Maybe a late round pick and an above average (but not exceptional the teams best) prospect.

On the LW, we got 22 out of Guentzel this year. No other LW eclipsed 20 this year.
Last year, Sheary managed 23 goals, but no other LW hit that mark last year
The year before, nobody on the LW hit 20 goals.

The Penguins would be wise to pick up one more consistent LW. I expect Guentzel to continue the 20+ goals per season pace, but I'd like to see more from the LW position as a whole. It's all about matchups, and heading into next season, the Penguins expected top 3 RWs are all exclusive RWs in Kessel, Hornqvist, and Sprong.


If the LW is playing good defense, who cares if they score more than 20 goals? Sure, we'd like balance, but these are the last 3 seasons for scoring rank by team:

2017-18 - 3rd 3.29
2016-17 - 1st 3.39
2015-16 - 3rd 2.94

If the Pens can get a LW that score more than 20 without giving up defense, of course upgrade, but if they are scoring 20, someone else is likely scoring less.


It would be different if Kessel, Hornqvist, or Sprong could play both sides of center.....but they don't, so when your LW group is already weak, you are one injury away from fielding a really crappy LW group. It's about matchups and versatility.


Hornqvist doesn't miss much time and Kessel never misses time. Sprong is a non discussion since he hasn't played much.

The team scores goals and to me it doesn't matter where it comes from. I get what your saying and in principal I don't disagree, just don't think it's as big a priority as you do. If Kessel and Sprong are half your RW, you really can't get a pure scoring LW, you'd need someone like a Hagelin to balance them out.

Just to add, I think ZAR can help the LW quite a bit if given an expanded role. Seems like Sullivan was doing that when he got hurt, would have been nice to see him through the Capitals series.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby thehockeyguru on Thu May 17, 2018 9:41 am

TIOPS also mentioned that the Canes are actively looking to move Jordan Staal, I just can't see the Pens as a fit though.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Jim on Thu May 17, 2018 10:57 am

Pitts wrote:
maopens wrote:Maybe Geno is recruiting his linemate.

Trading Sheary and adding Kovalchuk would be an interesting change to our offense.

Kovalchuk would solve the barren LW option for the Pens as well! Hmmmmm.


Just need to remember that Kovalchuk is 35 years old right now.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Defence21 on Thu May 17, 2018 11:53 am

It might seem drastic, but I'd be open to dealing both Letang and Kessel.

In Letang, the Pens get out from under a large contract of a player who misses a lot of time and makes mind-numbingly bad decisions on a regular basis. In my opinion, the bad outweighs the good (albeit not by much). If the Pens can land John Carlson via free agency or OEL or another high end/top pair defender via trade, this is a no-brainer for me.

In Kessel, the Pens sell high on a player coming off a career year. They also move on from someone Sullivan clearly has issues with. While I would never suggest moving a proven star to make room for a rookie, having Sprong, a player very similar in skill-set, style, and attitude, makes it at least a little easier to swallow.

In return, the Pens should be looking for youth, though not necessarily unproven prospects. If they can land a few draft picks and players with NHL experience that fill team needs, they would clear some cap space to sign a high end left winger for Malkin and a top-pair defender to replace Letang.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby thehockeyguru on Thu May 17, 2018 12:10 pm

Defence21 wrote:It might seem drastic, but I'd be open to dealing both Letang and Kessel.

In Letang, the Pens get out from under a large contract of a player who misses a lot of time and makes mind-numbingly bad decisions on a regular basis. In my opinion, the bad outweighs the good (albeit not by much). If the Pens can land John Carlson via free agency or OEL or another high end/top pair defender via trade, this is a no-brainer for me.

In Kessel, the Pens sell high on a player coming off a career year. They also move on from someone Sullivan clearly has issues with. While I would never suggest moving a proven star to make room for a rookie, having Sprong, a player very similar in skill-set, style, and attitude, makes it at least a little easier to swallow.

In return, the Pens should be looking for youth, though not necessarily unproven prospects. If they can land a few draft picks and players with NHL experience that fill team needs, they would clear some cap space to sign a high end left winger for Malkin and a top-pair defender to replace Letang.


I agree with this to an extent. I agree with everything you said about Letang. Because I like the idea of brining in Carlson on a similar AAV as Letang so from a salary standpoint that could be a wash.

Regarding Kessel I am torn. I like the idea of having a right side of Hornqvist, Kessel, Sprong, and Rust. But deep down dont think Sullivan will allow both Kessel and Sprong to be on the roster.

For me, I would move Sheary first. I would much rather pay Kessel 6.8M than Sheary 3M, but I do understand that we may not want to pay Kessel 6.8M for the last few seasons under his contract.

So 3 questions:

What can you get back for Letang?
What can you get back for Sheary?
What can you get back for Kessel?

Trading out these players means you need to bring in a Top 4 defenseman (likely Carlson), a Top 6 RW, and a Top 9 LW (possibly JVR).

So if you move those 3 players I think you at minimum need to get a Top 6 RW to play with Malkin IF you can replace Kessel and Letang with Carlson and JVR.

Guentzel - Crosby - Hornqvist
Hagelin - Malkin - RW via Trade
JVR - Brassard - Sprong
Kuhnhackl / ZAR - Sheahan - Rust
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby dark_forces on Thu May 17, 2018 12:43 pm

I see that NY Islander nikolai kulemin is a UFA and a natural LW with some skill. I recall how the Pens attempted to sign him last time he was a free agent so he could be reunited with hometown buddy Malkin.
I'm not sure what his injury situation was last season, but he may come cheap on a 1 year - prove it deal - and boost his numbers alongside Malkin.
This also presumes we deal Sheary for a pick or prospect to clear his cap hit. Just a thought.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby FLPensFan on Thu May 17, 2018 1:24 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:
Defence21 wrote:It might seem drastic, but I'd be open to dealing both Letang and Kessel.

In Letang, the Pens get out from under a large contract of a player who misses a lot of time and makes mind-numbingly bad decisions on a regular basis. In my opinion, the bad outweighs the good (albeit not by much). If the Pens can land John Carlson via free agency or OEL or another high end/top pair defender via trade, this is a no-brainer for me.

In Kessel, the Pens sell high on a player coming off a career year. They also move on from someone Sullivan clearly has issues with. While I would never suggest moving a proven star to make room for a rookie, having Sprong, a player very similar in skill-set, style, and attitude, makes it at least a little easier to swallow.

In return, the Pens should be looking for youth, though not necessarily unproven prospects. If they can land a few draft picks and players with NHL experience that fill team needs, they would clear some cap space to sign a high end left winger for Malkin and a top-pair defender to replace Letang.


I agree with this to an extent. I agree with everything you said about Letang. Because I like the idea of brining in Carlson on a similar AAV as Letang so from a salary standpoint that could be a wash.

Regarding Kessel I am torn. I like the idea of having a right side of Hornqvist, Kessel, Sprong, and Rust. But deep down dont think Sullivan will allow both Kessel and Sprong to be on the roster.

For me, I would move Sheary first. I would much rather pay Kessel 6.8M than Sheary 3M, but I do understand that we may not want to pay Kessel 6.8M for the last few seasons under his contract.

So 3 questions:

What can you get back for Letang?
What can you get back for Sheary?
What can you get back for Kessel?

Trading out these players means you need to bring in a Top 4 defenseman (likely Carlson), a Top 6 RW, and a Top 9 LW (possibly JVR).

So if you move those 3 players I think you at minimum need to get a Top 6 RW to play with Malkin IF you can replace Kessel and Letang with Carlson and JVR.

Guentzel - Crosby - Hornqvist
Hagelin - Malkin - RW via Trade
JVR - Brassard - Sprong
Kuhnhackl / ZAR - Sheahan - Rust

If I am trading Letang and Kessel, my two main objectives are to get younger and free up cap space. So either open cap space, or 2 players taking up the price of one of those big contracts. Deals that I would target (and could need more from one side or the other, but this would be starting point)

I don't see Sheary getting you much more than a 2nd/3rd round pick.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Defence21 on Thu May 17, 2018 1:29 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
Defence21 wrote:It might seem drastic, but I'd be open to dealing both Letang and Kessel.

In Letang, the Pens get out from under a large contract of a player who misses a lot of time and makes mind-numbingly bad decisions on a regular basis. In my opinion, the bad outweighs the good (albeit not by much). If the Pens can land John Carlson via free agency or OEL or another high end/top pair defender via trade, this is a no-brainer for me.

In Kessel, the Pens sell high on a player coming off a career year. They also move on from someone Sullivan clearly has issues with. While I would never suggest moving a proven star to make room for a rookie, having Sprong, a player very similar in skill-set, style, and attitude, makes it at least a little easier to swallow.

In return, the Pens should be looking for youth, though not necessarily unproven prospects. If they can land a few draft picks and players with NHL experience that fill team needs, they would clear some cap space to sign a high end left winger for Malkin and a top-pair defender to replace Letang.


I agree with this to an extent. I agree with everything you said about Letang. Because I like the idea of brining in Carlson on a similar AAV as Letang so from a salary standpoint that could be a wash.

Regarding Kessel I am torn. I like the idea of having a right side of Hornqvist, Kessel, Sprong, and Rust. But deep down dont think Sullivan will allow both Kessel and Sprong to be on the roster.

For me, I would move Sheary first. I would much rather pay Kessel 6.8M than Sheary 3M, but I do understand that we may not want to pay Kessel 6.8M for the last few seasons under his contract.

So 3 questions:

What can you get back for Letang?
What can you get back for Sheary?
What can you get back for Kessel?

Trading out these players means you need to bring in a Top 4 defenseman (likely Carlson), a Top 6 RW, and a Top 9 LW (possibly JVR).

So if you move those 3 players I think you at minimum need to get a Top 6 RW to play with Malkin IF you can replace Kessel and Letang with Carlson and JVR.

Guentzel - Crosby - Hornqvist
Hagelin - Malkin - RW via Trade
JVR - Brassard - Sprong
Kuhnhackl / ZAR - Sheahan - Rust

If I am trading Letang and Kessel, my two main objectives are to get younger and free up cap space. So either open cap space, or 2 players taking up the price of one of those big contracts. Deals that I would target (and could need more from one side or the other, but this would be starting point)

I don't see Sheary getting you much more than a 2nd/3rd round pick.

I agree. Between Letang and Kessel, the Penguins are committing significant salary to two aging and somewhat flawed players. Letang as injury prone and very up and down, and Kessel as very one-dimensional. If they can part with both and get younger and save cap space, they create depth, while also creating cap space to make a move for a player that might better fit the team.

As for Sheary, I think he's almost certainly gone, even if the return is minimal. The player is, quite simply, nothing more than a product of Crosby. He's done absolutely nothing anywhere else in the lineup, and really hasn't done much with Crosby of late, either. The Pens should take what they can get for him and Hunwick to free up their considerable cap space for a third pairing defenseman.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Hatrick on Thu May 17, 2018 1:29 pm

1.resign most of the RFA. None of them should be bank breaking, sheahan won't make much more than this year(somewhere around 2mil) and proved better than I expected at the time of deal. Oleksiak I actually really liked that deal to start with and he proved to be a solid bottom pair guy. Rust should see a modest increase but nothing crazy I hope. Kuhn is a solid 4th line guy but if his contract would be too much could be replaced for cheaper. Jarry and Simon I think are both also RFA, keep both.

2. let our only UFA(Rowney) go. Easy decision.

3. trade as long as you can find any buyer to take the salary: sheary and hunwick
that is $5million against the cap. I thought sheary was overpaid before the season began and it looks even worse now. Hope a team is hopeful enough they can turn it around there, don't care if we don't get much back other than the salary relief.

4. Listen to offers but don't trade unless the deal is right: letang and hagelin
Even more salary against the cap with these two but they both still have value both in trade market and to the team.. at times at least. Hagelin waited half the year to show up but did, letang had some good flashes after the calendar changed but also had many bonehead moments but there shouldn't be any kneejerk reactions here. He is still an asset albeit one that has decreased in value.

5. I would keep brassard and Kessel, while they combine for a significant cap hit even with a lot of salary being paid for by other teams and neither one was great in the playoffs(and at times actually stunk) both deserve the benefit of the doubt, injury made a big impact on both, and in the case of brassard familiarity should help.

6. GET HEALTHY AND REST-self explanatory. One benefit of being eliminated earlier is more time for everyone(including brassard and kessel but also malkin and others) to rest as compared to playing into june.

7. Use some of the returns of the trades to strengthen the defensive pairings, However you do it I don't care; whether it is players coming back in the trades(i.e scuderi for daley type deal) or just from the cap room made available from unloading contracts or you trade the assets you got back from making the cap room to go out and get some defensive piece in a separate deal.

8. The gaps in forwards and in net can be filled from within by ZAR, possibly sprong(I wasn't so high on him coming into the year like many on this site so I am not surprised he didn't get much time this year but even before GMJR's comments I expected him to get more next season) for forwards, Desmith and Jarry for goalies. Save any cap space for d, do not bother going for more forwards or goalies.(unless Tavares wants to take a huge salary discount to win and you put him at 3c and obviously move brass to wing which might happen anyway. While our defense would still be pretty bad the forward group would be unstoppable)
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Hatrick on Thu May 17, 2018 1:42 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:TIOPS also mentioned that the Canes are actively looking to move Jordan Staal, I just can't see the Pens as a fit though.

a year too late for that, last year he would have been but not now. Just like the Tavares situation only staal already has the $6m contract and Tavares would likely be getting $10. They have depth at the position now with both brassard and sheahan who weren't there last year, the upgrade isn't enough to make up for the increase in cap hit.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby RisslingsMissingTeeth on Thu May 17, 2018 2:25 pm

One area I clearly do not fall in line with the rest of this board is why Sheary should be gone and yet Rust stays. I think they both disappointed this year with Sheary scoring more than Rust and being a better fore-checker and PP guy and Rust being a better PK guy which are a dime a dozen.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby thehockeyguru on Thu May 17, 2018 2:34 pm

RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:One area I clearly do not fall in line with the rest of this board is why Sheary should be gone and yet Rust stays. I think they both disappointed this year with Sheary scoring more than Rust and being a better fore-checker and PP guy and Rust being a better PK guy which are a dime a dozen.


Rust and Sheary both posted under 20 Goals this season, I think the primary reason Sheary makes more sense is the 3M price tag. Rust is a 3rd line guy and shouldn't be close to making 3M per.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby FLPensFan on Thu May 17, 2018 2:38 pm

RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:One area I clearly do not fall in line with the rest of this board is why Sheary should be gone and yet Rust stays. I think they both disappointed this year with Sheary scoring more than Rust and being a better fore-checker and PP guy and Rust being a better PK guy which are a dime a dozen.

Peel away and remove their offensive production from both players. What are you left with?

Rust is a much, much better player defensively. I think Rust has much better straight line speed, while Sheary has more agility in tight/better on his edges. But that defensive play is why Rust is a lot more valuable, in my book. Rust also seems better at moving up and down the lineup.

If you told me I could pay 1 guy 3M and cut/trade the other guy, I'm going to take Rust 10 times out of 10 because he is a more complete player. That's not to say Rust didn't slump or disappoint this year either, but more to the fact that when he isn't scoring, he's still a good defensive player and PK guy, whereas Sheary is not.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby FLPensFan on Thu May 17, 2018 2:44 pm

Defence21 wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
Defence21 wrote:It might seem drastic, but I'd be open to dealing both Letang and Kessel.

In Letang, the Pens get out from under a large contract of a player who misses a lot of time and makes mind-numbingly bad decisions on a regular basis. In my opinion, the bad outweighs the good (albeit not by much). If the Pens can land John Carlson via free agency or OEL or another high end/top pair defender via trade, this is a no-brainer for me.

In Kessel, the Pens sell high on a player coming off a career year. They also move on from someone Sullivan clearly has issues with. While I would never suggest moving a proven star to make room for a rookie, having Sprong, a player very similar in skill-set, style, and attitude, makes it at least a little easier to swallow.

In return, the Pens should be looking for youth, though not necessarily unproven prospects. If they can land a few draft picks and players with NHL experience that fill team needs, they would clear some cap space to sign a high end left winger for Malkin and a top-pair defender to replace Letang.


I agree with this to an extent. I agree with everything you said about Letang. Because I like the idea of brining in Carlson on a similar AAV as Letang so from a salary standpoint that could be a wash.

Regarding Kessel I am torn. I like the idea of having a right side of Hornqvist, Kessel, Sprong, and Rust. But deep down dont think Sullivan will allow both Kessel and Sprong to be on the roster.

For me, I would move Sheary first. I would much rather pay Kessel 6.8M than Sheary 3M, but I do understand that we may not want to pay Kessel 6.8M for the last few seasons under his contract.

So 3 questions:

What can you get back for Letang?
What can you get back for Sheary?
What can you get back for Kessel?

Trading out these players means you need to bring in a Top 4 defenseman (likely Carlson), a Top 6 RW, and a Top 9 LW (possibly JVR).

So if you move those 3 players I think you at minimum need to get a Top 6 RW to play with Malkin IF you can replace Kessel and Letang with Carlson and JVR.

Guentzel - Crosby - Hornqvist
Hagelin - Malkin - RW via Trade
JVR - Brassard - Sprong
Kuhnhackl / ZAR - Sheahan - Rust

If I am trading Letang and Kessel, my two main objectives are to get younger and free up cap space. So either open cap space, or 2 players taking up the price of one of those big contracts. Deals that I would target (and could need more from one side or the other, but this would be starting point)

I don't see Sheary getting you much more than a 2nd/3rd round pick.

I agree. Between Letang and Kessel, the Penguins are committing significant salary to two aging and somewhat flawed players. Letang as injury prone and very up and down, and Kessel as very one-dimensional. If they can part with both and get younger and save cap space, they create depth, while also creating cap space to make a move for a player that might better fit the team.

As for Sheary, I think he's almost certainly gone, even if the return is minimal. The player is, quite simply, nothing more than a product of Crosby. He's done absolutely nothing anywhere else in the lineup, and really hasn't done much with Crosby of late, either. The Pens should take what they can get for him and Hunwick to free up their considerable cap space for a third pairing defenseman.

Yep, as I was telling someone else, it is a balancing act with the Penguins roster. Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Hornqvist, and Kessel are all signed for at least the next 4 years, and they are all currently 30/31 years old. Statistics would say there is a very low probability that all 5 of those guys are still going to be playing at a high level with little decline in 3 or 4 years.

So you need to find the balance of those guys still having value and trading, versus hanging on to them too long that they only get you scraps if you can move them.

As an example, not saying this is all the pieces, but if I could trade Phil Kessel for Sam Reinhart and Jake McCabe from Buffalo.....I've take a 30 year old Kessel and acquired a 22 year old RW on the rise, and a solid bottom pairing 24 year old defenseman. The Penguins are going to need to make several moves like this over the next 2-3 years, unless they want to just have a barren team when it is time for Crosby and Malkin to retire.

If they do things the right way, they should be able to trade off some of the bigger players at the right time to essentially retool on the fly, with the possibility of not missing the playoffs and being a lottery pick for a few years. That is my hope.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby Defence21 on Thu May 17, 2018 2:57 pm

FLPensFan wrote:Yep, as I was telling someone else, it is a balancing act with the Penguins roster. Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Hornqvist, and Kessel are all signed for at least the next 4 years, and they are all currently 30/31 years old. Statistics would say there is a very low probability that all 5 of those guys are still going to be playing at a high level with little decline in 3 or 4 years.

So you need to find the balance of those guys still having value and trading, versus hanging on to them too long that they only get you scraps if you can move them.

As an example, not saying this is all the pieces, but if I could trade Phil Kessel for Sam Reinhart and Jake McCabe from Buffalo.....I've take a 30 year old Kessel and acquired a 22 year old RW on the rise, and a solid bottom pairing 24 year old defenseman. The Penguins are going to need to make several moves like this over the next 2-3 years, unless they want to just have a barren team when it is time for Crosby and Malkin to retire.

If they do things the right way, they should be able to trade off some of the bigger players at the right time to essentially retool on the fly, with the possibility of not missing the playoffs and being a lottery pick for a few years. That is my hope.

Reubuilding on the fly is so difficult for most teams to do, because they have a few stars and a bunch of supporting talent. Replace a star or two with younger players, and it often signals a decline and missed playoff (or several). But, with the Penguins, they have enough star players that dealing one on offense and one on defense, and then replacing with youth won't prevent them from making the playoffs at all. It also frees up cap space to then sign a younger free agent or two. For example, while Carlson isn't young, per say, he is younger than Letang, and would solidify the group with a more consistent and healthy player.

For the record, I really like the idea of Reinhart as a player to target. He's very young, affordable, and skilled.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby RisslingsMissingTeeth on Thu May 17, 2018 3:07 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:One area I clearly do not fall in line with the rest of this board is why Sheary should be gone and yet Rust stays. I think they both disappointed this year with Sheary scoring more than Rust and being a better fore-checker and PP guy and Rust being a better PK guy which are a dime a dozen.

Peel away and remove their offensive production from both players. What are you left with?

Rust is a much, much better player defensively. I think Rust has much better straight line speed, while Sheary has more agility in tight/better on his edges. But that defensive play is why Rust is a lot more valuable, in my book. Rust also seems better at moving up and down the lineup.

If you told me I could pay 1 guy 3M and cut/trade the other guy, I'm going to take Rust 10 times out of 10 because he is a more complete player. That's not to say Rust didn't slump or disappoint this year either, but more to the fact that when he isn't scoring, he's still a good defensive player and PK guy, whereas Sheary is not.


Watching Sheary this year, I saw a guy who was just trying way too hard. The game came naturally to him prior to this year. This year it seemed like he was trying to force the game. At 25 years old with 48 career goals (to Rust's 33 in 1 more season), I think he is worth keeping and coaching. All of this said, if we kept both or traded both it isn't like I would have much response either way.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby pens_CT on Thu May 17, 2018 3:12 pm

Defence21 wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:Yep, as I was telling someone else, it is a balancing act with the Penguins roster. Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Hornqvist, and Kessel are all signed for at least the next 4 years, and they are all currently 30/31 years old. Statistics would say there is a very low probability that all 5 of those guys are still going to be playing at a high level with little decline in 3 or 4 years.

So you need to find the balance of those guys still having value and trading, versus hanging on to them too long that they only get you scraps if you can move them.

As an example, not saying this is all the pieces, but if I could trade Phil Kessel for Sam Reinhart and Jake McCabe from Buffalo.....I've take a 30 year old Kessel and acquired a 22 year old RW on the rise, and a solid bottom pairing 24 year old defenseman. The Penguins are going to need to make several moves like this over the next 2-3 years, unless they want to just have a barren team when it is time for Crosby and Malkin to retire.

If they do things the right way, they should be able to trade off some of the bigger players at the right time to essentially retool on the fly, with the possibility of not missing the playoffs and being a lottery pick for a few years. That is my hope.

Reubuilding on the fly is so difficult for most teams to do, because they have a few stars and a bunch of supporting talent. Replace a star or two with younger players, and it often signals a decline and missed playoff (or several). But, with the Penguins, they have enough star players that dealing one on offense and one on defense, and then replacing with youth won't prevent them from making the playoffs at all. It also frees up cap space to then sign a younger free agent or two. For example, while Carlson isn't young, per say, he is younger than Letang, and would solidify the group with a more consistent and healthy player.

For the record, I really like the idea of Reinhart as a player to target. He's very young, affordable, and skilled.


From the Penguins perspective it makes sense, but take the Reinhart situation in Buffalo if you move him plus whatever for Kessel does that make Buffalo any closer to being a playoff team? You are getting a much more expensive player who is approximately 9 years older, Doesn't seem much of a win for the Sabres to me. You need to move Kessel to a team that thinks it's one scorer away from making the playoffs and has the cap space absorb his salary.
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Re: 2018 Summer Game Plan

Postby SubtropicalPenguin on Thu May 17, 2018 3:51 pm

I just don't get the point of moving Kessel. He's been outstanding here, outside of the playoff run this season. It was obvious he was nowhere near 100%, but he played near Conn Smythe level for the last two runs. His $6.8 million cap hit is very reasonable, even if he regresses a bit over the next couple of seasons. I just don't see a value in shipping him off with that cap hit.

Sure, I'd like to see Sprong be successful, but you don't move a proven top line guy like Kessel with Sprong as the backup plan. He's played 26 NHL games, and has 5 career points. The Pens can have a great lineup coming back next season. I would make a play for a solid LW, if possible, in free agency. Other than that, re-sign your RFA's, and add a little blue line depth. Hopefully a restful off-season will lead to a renewed effort next year. Don't rebuild - reload.
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