Pens Need Speed (Younger Legs)...

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Pens Need Speed (Younger Legs)...

Postby Realist on Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:54 am

It is clear that the Pens aren't the fastest team in the league. Even Bryan Rust now looks slow. 4th oldest team now per Mark Madden's analysis:

https://triblive.com/sports/columnists/ ... d-a-plan-b

One of the worst mistakes the Pens made in the mid 1990's was keeping guys too long.
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Re: Pens Need Speed (Younger Legs)...

Postby Penguins Knight on Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:39 pm

Speed is not the problem. Not scoring goals and not playing better defensively are the problems.
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Re: Pens Need Speed (Younger Legs)...

Postby Jim on Wed Nov 07, 2018 1:26 pm

Realist wrote:One of the worst mistakes the Pens made in the mid 1990's was keeping guys too long.


Trade Malkin. 2nd oldest on the team behind Cullen.
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Re: Pens Need Speed (Younger Legs)...

Postby Penguins Knight on Wed Nov 07, 2018 2:26 pm

How about trade Letang? The Penguins do not need to make mistakes of keeping defensemen who five away the pucks and contributes to goals against too long.
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Re: Pens Need Speed (Younger Legs)...

Postby Realist on Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:06 pm

Penguins Knight wrote:Speed is not the problem. Not scoring goals and not playing better defensively are the problems.


Too simplistic a view my friend. There are reasons they aren't scoring goals and their defensive play is part of that.
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Re: Pens Need Speed (Younger Legs)...

Postby Penguins Knight on Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:13 pm

Simple does not have to be complex.
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Re: Pens Need Speed (Younger Legs)...

Postby RisslingsMissingTeeth on Wed Nov 07, 2018 3:17 pm

Speed IS the problem. Scoring goals comes from outworking/outskating the competition. We did this and won 2 cups. Then JR lost his mind and started thinking it was the players vs the style of play and resigned all of the old guys. It will kill us just like it has killed the Kings and Hawks. These contracts are huge weights on our ankles. Maybe not fully this year, but you will really start seeing this next year.
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Re: Pens Need Speed (Younger Legs)...

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:39 pm

A few comments here:

- I do believe their age is becoming an issue to some extent, but, so is their drive. There is a reason teams can't just coming back with the same team year in and year out and keep winning the Cup. Players age, players decline. You win two or three Cups, while the players won't say it, I do believe subconciously the drive to win another lessens a bit....you want to win it, but, you also know, if you fall short, you have already won a few Cups. You need to have that influx of guys that have not won it to have that drive to battle for a loose puck on the boards in November.

- On the flip side, it is nearly impossible to keep the a teams Cup window open for 10 plus years like the Penguins have done. Unfortunately, Bylsma pissed a lot of those years away, but, you look at a team like Toronto. They are young, they are stacked up front....but, they still need defense, are still missing one of their top forwards due to money issues, and have another top forward that is going to need a huge raise next year. I don't see how Toronto keeps Tavares, Matthews, Nylander, Marner, Gardiner, Reilly, and Andersen all together, and still fills out a Cup contending team. Look at Tampa. They are stacked. They just signed Yanni Gourde to a 5.something million a year deal. Brayden Pointe has almost identical numbers, so you figure next year he should be in line for a similar deal. Vasilevskiy is one of the best young goalies in the game, and needs a new deal in two years. Next year, they already have 72.4M committed to their cap for only 14 players. They only have 3 defenseman signed for next season (Hedman, McDonagh, Sergachev). Sergachev will also need a new, big deal after next season. Something will have to give in Tampa, too. Even if they can dump McDonagh, Brayden Pointe will suck up the majority of that cap space. Roughly 10M to sign 3-4 defenseman for next season??? Good luck.

- Pittsburgh really needs to evaluate how some of these players are working out longer term. If Jack Johnson, for instance, can continue playing more than just one good game with Letang, can you trade Maatta for something decent this summer...a good, younger, faster LW maybe? Johnson-Letang, Dumoulin-Schultz, Riikola-Oleksiak as your d pairings? I mean, I always hear Rutherford loves Olli, and, he is a good, young kid. But he just seems to struggle a lot because of his speed issues, and they aren't going away. The Penguins don't have a lot of chips to play to upgrade the team.
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Re: Pens Need Speed (Younger Legs)...

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:45 pm

Penguins Knight wrote:How about trade Letang? The Penguins do not need to make mistakes of keeping defensemen who five away the pucks and contributes to goals against too long.

Letang is their best defenseman right now. He is having a bounce back season, and there have already been some whispers from people outside of Pittsburgh mentioning him in the Norris conversation. I don't think he is going anywhere. Letang has only been on the ice for 7 even strength goals this season, lowest on the team for those who have played more than 10 games on defense. His goals for percentage (above 50% means you are on the ice for more goals scored by your team than against your team) is 5th best in the league right now for defenseman at even strength.

His Corsi, Shots, and Scoring Chances For are all going to push him lower down the list because the team is getting outshot almost every game, which isn't Letang's fault, it's a team issue.
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Re: Pens Need Speed (Younger Legs)...

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:00 pm

Adding to what I said above about keeping teams together to long, and bringing back mostly the same team year after year....

GM Jim Rutherford on Pens pre-game radio: "I wonder if this group's been together too long." Adds he'll make changes in "short order" if problems persist.
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Re: Pens Need Speed (Younger Legs)...

Postby Malkintent on Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:32 pm

Letang has been great so far this season and people still want to trade him. Unbelievable.
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Re: Pens Need Speed (Younger Legs)...

Postby Pruezy11881 on Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:52 pm

New bodies from WBS have interjected some energy into the lineup this evening, so there's that.
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Re: Pens Need Speed (Younger Legs)...

Postby Penguins Knight on Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:08 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
Penguins Knight wrote:How about trade Letang? The Penguins do not need to make mistakes of keeping defensemen who five away the pucks and contributes to goals against too long.

Letang is their best defenseman right now. He is having a bounce back season, and there have already been some whispers from people outside of Pittsburgh mentioning him in the Norris conversation. I don't think he is going anywhere. Letang has only been on the ice for 7 even strength goals this season, lowest on the team for those who have played more than 10 games on defense. His goals for percentage (above 50% means you are on the ice for more goals scored by your team than against your team) is 5th best in the league right now for defenseman at even strength.

His Corsi, Shots, and Scoring Chances For are all going to push him lower down the list because the team is getting outshot almost every game, which isn't Letang's fault, it's a team issue.


If Letang plays back up to a standard of winning, my opinion of him will change.
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Re: Pens Need Speed (Younger Legs)...

Postby Penguins Knight on Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:09 pm

FLPensFan wrote:Adding to what I said above about keeping teams together to long, and bringing back mostly the same team year after year....

GM Jim Rutherford on Pens pre-game radio: "I wonder if this group's been together too long." Adds he'll make changes in "short order" if problems persist.


The Penguins usually make minor moves around December. If the team continues to sputter, several players will be changing addresses.
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Re: Pens Need Speed (Younger Legs)...

Postby Penguins Knight on Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:11 pm

Malkintent wrote:Letang has been great so far this season and people still want to trade him. Unbelievable.


Letang made himself expendable with bad play over the 2017-2018 season. Playing better now means he is improving himself to be traded, or he is serious about returning to a standard of winning.
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Re: Pens Need Speed (Younger Legs)...

Postby Realist on Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:43 pm

FLPensFan wrote:A few comments here:

- I do believe their age is becoming an issue to some extent, but, so is their drive. There is a reason teams can't just coming back with the same team year in and year out and keep winning the Cup. Players age, players decline. You win two or three Cups, while the players won't say it, I do believe subconciously the drive to win another lessens a bit....you want to win it, but, you also know, if you fall short, you have already won a few Cups. You need to have that influx of guys that have not won it to have that drive to battle for a loose puck on the boards in November.


Couldn't have put it better myself!!
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Re: Pens Need Speed (Younger Legs)...

Postby Steve on Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:21 pm

The Pens also have a bunch of guys who seem to contribute more in the playoffs compared to the regular season. (Guentzel, Kessel, Rust, Hagelin, Hornqvist, Cullen etc). Not the worst problem to have in November.

The age will catch up with them, we all know that - but I don't think it's a problem now or next season at least.
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Re: Pens Need Speed (Younger Legs)...

Postby Steve on Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:24 pm

Penguins Knight wrote:
Malkintent wrote:Letang has been great so far this season and people still want to trade him. Unbelievable.


Letang made himself expendable with bad play over the 2017-2018 season. Playing better now means he is improving himself to be traded, or he is serious about returning to a standard of winning.


Or a third possibility, he had a full offseason to train and he didn't rush back from any major surgeries.
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Re: Pens Need Speed (Younger Legs)...

Postby LimerickPensFan on Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:39 pm

Penguins Knight wrote:
Malkintent wrote:Letang has been great so far this season and people still want to trade him. Unbelievable.


Letang made himself expendable with bad play over the 2017-2018 season. Playing better now means he is improving himself to be traded, or he is serious about returning to a standard of winning.

I guarantee that Rutherford is not thinking that way. Letang is one of the untouchables on this team. Not quite to the level of Sid and Geno, but not too far back.
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Re: Pens Need Speed (Younger Legs)...

Postby lemieuxReturns on Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:52 pm

Letang has been great so far this season. If however you ever entertained the idea of trading Letang. Now would be the time to do it.

I think the problem is too much cap space tied up in defense. That would be a problem no matter how well they were playing. It’s a major problem with how bad they are playing. We have never spent this much (percentage wise) on defense in the cap era. Rutherford forgets that when he cut down on defense spending and increased forward spending we won cups.
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Re: Pens Need Speed (Younger Legs)...

Postby State College Penguin on Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:39 pm

Realist wrote:It is clear that the Pens aren't the fastest team in the league. Even Bryan Rust now looks slow. 4th oldest team now per Mark Madden's analysis:

https://triblive.com/sports/columnists/ ... d-a-plan-b

One of the worst mistakes the Pens made in the mid 1990's was keeping guys too long.



Big time believer that all these deals for rentals and others that JR has done throughout the years are starting to come back to haunt us. The system is devoid of talent. We trade picks away like they throw beads at Mardi Gras parades. In the past, we have had guys like Murray, Rust, Sheary, Guentzel and such down on the farm to bring up and they helped a lot. We don't have that player anymore.

I'm hoping the old man saves the picks and tries to rebuild the system that is devoid of talent.
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Re: Pens Need Speed (Younger Legs)...

Postby Jim on Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:41 pm

State College Penguin wrote:
Realist wrote:It is clear that the Pens aren't the fastest team in the league. Even Bryan Rust now looks slow. 4th oldest team now per Mark Madden's analysis:

https://triblive.com/sports/columnists/ ... d-a-plan-b

One of the worst mistakes the Pens made in the mid 1990's was keeping guys too long.



Big time believer that all these deals for rentals and others that JR has done throughout the years are starting to come back to haunt us. The system is devoid of talent. We trade picks away like they throw beads at Mardi Gras parades. In the past, we have had guys like Murray, Rust, Sheary, Guentzel and such down on the farm to bring up and they helped a lot. We don't have that player anymore.

I'm hoping the old man saves the picks and tries to rebuild the system that is devoid of talent.


So have some hit or miss 1st rounders and 3 total Cups. Good decision.
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Re: Pens Need Speed (Younger Legs)...

Postby Daniel on Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:50 pm

State College Penguin wrote:
Realist wrote:It is clear that the Pens aren't the fastest team in the league. Even Bryan Rust now looks slow. 4th oldest team now per Mark Madden's analysis:

https://triblive.com/sports/columnists/ ... d-a-plan-b

One of the worst mistakes the Pens made in the mid 1990's was keeping guys too long.



Big time believer that all these deals for rentals and others that JR has done throughout the years are starting to come back to haunt us. The system is devoid of talent. We trade picks away like they throw beads at Mardi Gras parades. In the past, we have had guys like Murray, Rust, Sheary, Guentzel and such down on the farm to bring up and they helped a lot. We don't have that player anymore.

I'm hoping the old man saves the picks and tries to rebuild the system that is devoid of talent.


I don't think the system is devoid of talent, I think it's devoid of opportunity. They might not have top end talent, but they don't need top end talent. They just need steady NHL players, which I believe WBS has.

Look at the roster. Not a single person earned the roster spot this preseason. The lineup was set before training camp even began. You can say Riikola earned a roster spot, but he's barely played and the slotted 7th defensemen has been playing for Schultz. So the one spot available was the 8th defensemen, which doesn't really qualify. You can make the argument that Simon earned a spot, but I think he was slotted and only had to not fall on his face.

JR created a roster based on waiver exemption and not competition. If he wanted Cullen for leadership, fine have him as 13th forward and not sign Grant. Allow a WBS C to compete for the spot gifted to Cullen. He's starting down the same path as Patrick and Shero in that the roster is filled with veterans with no slots for kids to earn.
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Re: Pens Need Speed (Younger Legs)...

Postby FLPensFan on Sat Nov 10, 2018 12:50 pm

The system is void of top end talent. There is 1 potential top 6 prospect in Sprong, with an outside chance of Bellerive or Miletic being a top 6 player. There are no top 4 defense prospects other than Addison. Everything is bottom 6 and bottom pairing. Even giving away picks, that shouldn't be the case. The dont hit on enough picks.

I have also mentioned before, however, is that while they trade 1st rounders away, they tend to acquire 1st round talent via trade. Cole, Sheahan, Oleksiak, Johnson, Brassard, and Kessel were all recent 1st round acquisitions made by the Penguins under Rutherford.

But, what good does top4 d or top 6 forward prospects do you when you wont play them. Rust has struggled mightily this season yet hes gotten multiple attempts with Sid. So the earning the spot stuff for Sprong is utter BS at this point. A game like tonight against a West team is perfect time to try Sprong with Sid.
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Re: Pens Need Speed (Younger Legs)...

Postby Daniel on Sat Nov 10, 2018 1:30 pm

FLPensFan wrote:The system is void of top end talent. There is 1 potential top 6 prospect in Sprong, with an outside chance of Bellerive or Miletic being a top 6 player. There are no top 4 defense prospects other than Addison. Everything is bottom 6 and bottom pairing. Even giving away picks, that shouldn't be the case. The dont hit on enough picks.

I have also mentioned before, however, is that while they trade 1st rounders away, they tend to acquire 1st round talent via trade. Cole, Sheahan, Oleksiak, Johnson, Brassard, and Kessel were all recent 1st round acquisitions made by the Penguins under Rutherford.

But, what good does top4 d or top 6 forward prospects do you when you wont play them. Rust has struggled mightily this season yet hes gotten multiple attempts with Sid. So the earning the spot stuff for Sprong is utter BS at this point. A game like tonight against a West team is perfect time to try Sprong with Sid.


On paper, the system is void of top end talent, but in reality who knows. Say what you want about Sheary, but he went from being UFDA to top line winger. No one would have considered him a top end talent on paper, but he was able to play with Sid. One can argue that Sheary has been better than most of the 1st round picks from what would have been his draft class.

Point is, if JR is going to go into a season with a full roster with no one earning a spot, he's going to see what he's seeing now and people will continue to assume the system is devoid of talent. The Pens won the cup with an influx of youth. Not blue chip prospects, but good solid players. You need a guy like ZAR, for example, to push guys like Rust.
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