Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby ville5 on Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:35 pm

DelPen wrote:Craig Patrick hired on as a scout.

At 72?
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby Steve on Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:38 pm

ville5 wrote:
DelPen wrote:Craig Patrick hired on as a scout.

At 72?


Remember Craig, we're not looking for the best players, we're looking for the right ones.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby Jim on Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:54 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
murphydump55 wrote:I just don’t trust our GM. Sure point to the Cups all you want but that second Cup was one/won with a pretty high PDO which is extremely hard to replicate. As someone posted before, it seems that since Botterill left, a lot of Rutherford’s true colours are shining through, much like they did in Carolina.

I’m shocked he got extended. I thought for sure they’d promote Guerin by this time. Not saying Guerin is right for the job, I just thought he’d be next.

I'm not sure I buy all the Botteril stuff to the same degree. I think Rutherford has a history of having a shelf life. He'll do a lot of good, and then start to make a lot of really bad moves and start having to make more moves to cover up his bad moves. What I do know is that Rutherford, Botteril, and Guerin discuss trades first, as well as some other people. I am drawing a blank right now on what trade they were "debating" on the draft floor several years ago well after everyone else cleared out.

Rutherford has made 30 trades as Penguins GM. I was going to do a detailed breakdown of all his trades last night, but didn't feel like it. Here's a quick down of them just rating them all who was acquired:

Really good deals - Hornqvist, Kessel,Bonino, Daley, Justin Schultz
Good deals - Ian Cole, Carl Hagelin, 5th rounder (for Condon), Hainsey, Oleksiak
No impact - Rob Klinhammer, Max Lapierre, Melindy/Jeffrey/O'Donoghue, Streit, Andrey Pedan, Michael Leighton, Josh Jooris
Bad deals - David Perron, Daniel Winnik, Ben Lovejoy, 3rd rounder (for Bennett), Frank Corrado, 2nd rounder to Vegas
Awful deals - Mattias Plachta, Ryan Reaves, Conditional 4th (for Sheary/Hunwick)
INCOMPLTE - Tanner Pearson, Derick Brassard

Brassard is trending towards bad deal because he isn't working out.


Your doing a bad mix of calling some trades good or bad from when they were made, and others from how they worked out. You are also ignoring salary dump value.

How is the Reaves trade awful when they picked the same guy that they were going to anyway? Are you saying that losing Sundqvist for Reaves makes it awful? How was getting ANYTHING for Bennett bad?
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby murphydump55 on Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:33 pm

ville5 wrote:
DelPen wrote:Craig Patrick hired on as a scout.

At 72?


Just saw a list of his last 5-6 trades for the Penguins. Yikes. Ugly.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby Hatrick on Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:04 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
Skatingpen wrote:Guys, while I love your never ending attempt to fix this team, there are way to many issues that any trade will fix

You are correct. No one trade or two trades that will fix the issues, but, one or two trades, combined with increased effort, can turn things around.

It's kind of interesting to me, and I didn't do it on purpose, that 3 of the trade targets I mentioned were all guys I thought they should have went after last year....Grabner and Bozak, and to a lesser extent, Athanisiou. There was mutual interest in Grabner, I know that for sure. The money he got is less than Bryan Rust and Carl Hagelin. So, not sure why it didn't work out. Only thing I can think of is at the time, Rutherford was so attached to Rust and wouldn't move Hagelin there was no room for Grabner. Also recall, Penguins had heavy interest in Domi, but reportedly wouldn't part with Rust and/or Simon.

Imagine this to start the season:

Guentzel-Crosby-Grabner
Domi-Malkin-Hornqvist
Hagelin-Brassard-Kessel
Sheahan-Cullen-Sprong
xGrant

It still wouldn't have solved the Cullen mistake, but that lineup adds youth, skill and speed, instead of adding age and not much skill.

I said at the time the rust contract was a dumb overpay. I wanted them to go after grabner and they could have without even moving anyone but then they overpaid rust and then did the Johnson deal.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby DelPen on Mon Nov 19, 2018 10:25 pm

Sullivan needs to go. Doesn’t matter who is responsible for the mess, can’t trade everyone so need to make a big change. This team is playing like garbage and all I hear are stupid cliches after the game from Sullivan.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby cojac on Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:46 pm

DelPen wrote:Sullivan needs to go. Doesn’t matter who is responsible for the mess, can’t trade everyone so need to make a big change. This team is playing like garbage and all I hear are stupid cliches after the game from Sullivan.

Agree, I’d be on the phone with Joel Quenneville
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby FLPensFan on Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:40 am

cojac wrote:
DelPen wrote:Sullivan needs to go. Doesn’t matter who is responsible for the mess, can’t trade everyone so need to make a big change. This team is playing like garbage and all I hear are stupid cliches after the game from Sullivan.

Agree, I’d be on the phone with Joel Quenneville

STL just fired Yeo. Berube interim. How long before Quenneville is in STL?
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby cojac on Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:18 am

FLPensFan wrote:
cojac wrote:
DelPen wrote:Sullivan needs to go. Doesn’t matter who is responsible for the mess, can’t trade everyone so need to make a big change. This team is playing like garbage and all I hear are stupid cliches after the game from Sullivan.

Agree, I’d be on the phone with Joel Quenneville

STL just fired Yeo. Berube interim. How long before Quenneville is in STL?

Pens need a coach that will teach them defense, JQ, AV, MT part deux
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby Great58 on Tue Nov 20, 2018 6:29 am

FLPensFan wrote:
cojac wrote:
DelPen wrote:Sullivan needs to go. Doesn’t matter who is responsible for the mess, can’t trade everyone so need to make a big change. This team is playing like garbage and all I hear are stupid cliches after the game from Sullivan.

Agree, I’d be on the phone with Joel Quenneville

STL just fired Yeo. Berube interim. How long before Quenneville is in STL?

Quinville is 60, and getting paid $6M for the remainder of this season and next to do nothing. A) Does it make sense that he immediately rushes back into coaching B) That he does it with a hot mess of a team and C) Are the Blues or the Pens willing to make a financial offer that would entice him to do so?
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby Humperdink on Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:23 am

ville5 wrote:
DelPen wrote:Craig Patrick hired on as a scout.

At 72?


I cracked up when I read this yesterday. The team is getting old and slow and so is the front office!!

(Edit: At 80, Gene Ubriaco is also available)
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby BurghThing on Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:56 am

Fire Yeo!!!


Ahh that brings back memories
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby blurryhaze312 on Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:35 am

Jim wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
murphydump55 wrote:I just don’t trust our GM. Sure point to the Cups all you want but that second Cup was one/won with a pretty high PDO which is extremely hard to replicate. As someone posted before, it seems that since Botterill left, a lot of Rutherford’s true colours are shining through, much like they did in Carolina.

I’m shocked he got extended. I thought for sure they’d promote Guerin by this time. Not saying Guerin is right for the job, I just thought he’d be next.

I'm not sure I buy all the Botteril stuff to the same degree. I think Rutherford has a history of having a shelf life. He'll do a lot of good, and then start to make a lot of really bad moves and start having to make more moves to cover up his bad moves. What I do know is that Rutherford, Botteril, and Guerin discuss trades first, as well as some other people. I am drawing a blank right now on what trade they were "debating" on the draft floor several years ago well after everyone else cleared out.

Rutherford has made 30 trades as Penguins GM. I was going to do a detailed breakdown of all his trades last night, but didn't feel like it. Here's a quick down of them just rating them all who was acquired:

Really good deals - Hornqvist, Kessel,Bonino, Daley, Justin Schultz
Good deals - Ian Cole, Carl Hagelin, 5th rounder (for Condon), Hainsey, Oleksiak
No impact - Rob Klinhammer, Max Lapierre, Melindy/Jeffrey/O'Donoghue, Streit, Andrey Pedan, Michael Leighton, Josh Jooris
Bad deals - David Perron, Daniel Winnik, Ben Lovejoy, 3rd rounder (for Bennett), Frank Corrado, 2nd rounder to Vegas
Awful deals - Mattias Plachta, Ryan Reaves, Conditional 4th (for Sheary/Hunwick)
INCOMPLTE - Tanner Pearson, Derick Brassard

Brassard is trending towards bad deal because he isn't working out.


Your doing a bad mix of calling some trades good or bad from when they were made, and others from how they worked out. You are also ignoring salary dump value.

How is the Reaves trade awful when they picked the same guy that they were going to anyway? Are you saying that losing Sundqvist for Reaves makes it awful? How was getting ANYTHING for Bennett bad?


And not only that, but they didn't trade a 1st for Reaves. They converted a 1st into a 2nd. If they traded a 1st and Sunqvist for Reaves, yea that's an awful deal. Considering the swap in draft picks, I'd say it was a "No/Little Impact" deal.

I also wouldn't call Sheary/Hunwick awful, either. It was a mix of good/bad - you clear cap space (good), but you also dumped Sheary which ideally you would have liked to keep if he could have turned his 1.5 year slump around (bad), but then you sign JJ to long term money (bad).

The cap savings on Fleury for shipping him off to Vegas should also be in the range of "Decent/Good" especially since he played a "do me a favor" card on the Brassard deal.

FLPensFan wrote:Brassard is trending towards bad deal because he isn't working out.


Then that's a "Bad" deal with an asterisk, right? It was heralded as a great move when it was made, especially with all the shiftiness and intricacies of the trade. How the player turns out can't be laid at the GMs feet when you bring a legitimate 2nd line center in to be your 3rd C behind Crosby/Malkin.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby Pitts on Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:57 am

The Brassard deal looked pretty good last night.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby penny lane on Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:07 am

Would Cam Neely ever answer a call from Pittsburgh? Z Chara out- Jack Johnson to the rescue?
Probably not ever happening.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby Defence21 on Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:29 am

penny lane wrote:Would Cam Neely ever answer a call from Pittsburgh? Z Chara out- Jack Johnson to the rescue?
Probably not ever happening.

I don't see how that deal helps either team. Chara is old and slow, and Johnson is not playing well (and hasn't in years) and signed for the longterm.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby IntangibleBeer on Tue Nov 20, 2018 11:29 am

DelPen wrote:Sullivan needs to go. Doesn’t matter who is responsible for the mess, can’t trade everyone so need to make a big change. This team is playing like garbage and all I hear are stupid cliches after the game from Sullivan.


I'm not there, yet. Stupid cliches are part of the job of the head coach - any head coach. I know they don't make you or me happy, but it's not like the coach is going to divulge critical player issues or deep thoughts on TV. I mean, can you see HCMS saying this in the post-game press conference? "Yeah, so-and-so is border-line psychotic and won't drive the center like we want him to do and that's why we didn't score a goal on that shift in the 2nd period." :lol: Uhmm. I don't think so. :roll: :wink:

HCMS came into a mess in 2015 and pulled the team out of a funk. He's gone 2 for 3 in Stanley Cups. Large chunks of the team have been replaced, including a significant change in assistant coaches (Recchi for Tocchet). I would not pull the trigger on replacing Sullivan at this point. Let's give the guy the chance to right the ship.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby Jim on Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:51 pm

penny lane wrote:Would Cam Neely ever answer a call from Pittsburgh? Z Chara out- Jack Johnson to the rescue?
Probably not ever happening.


Johnson is not going anywhere. But Maatta...

I don't want any of their $6M forwards, as they are $6M... They only things that that have that I would want are Heinen and DeBrusk. They are in bad injury shape right now but that is a big cost. Some kind of package of Maatta and Sprong for one of those two...
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby Jim on Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:52 pm

Defence21 wrote:
penny lane wrote:Would Cam Neely ever answer a call from Pittsburgh? Z Chara out- Jack Johnson to the rescue?
Probably not ever happening.

I don't see how that deal helps either team. Chara is old and slow, and Johnson is not playing well (and hasn't in years) and signed for the longterm.


Chara is hurt (out)
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby Defence21 on Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:54 pm

Jim wrote:
Defence21 wrote:
penny lane wrote:Would Cam Neely ever answer a call from Pittsburgh? Z Chara out- Jack Johnson to the rescue?
Probably not ever happening.

I don't see how that deal helps either team. Chara is old and slow, and Johnson is not playing well (and hasn't in years) and signed for the longterm.


Chara is hurt (out)

Yeah -- completely misread that. Didn't realize Chara was hurt. Thought it was a Chara for Johnson swap suggestion. Still can't see Boston wanting Johnson.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby Pitts on Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:20 pm

The 5 year deal effectively killed any shot at a trade should they decide Johnson didn't work out after all. No clue why they threw that at him right away.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby murphydump55 on Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:29 pm

IntangibleBeer wrote:
DelPen wrote:Sullivan needs to go. Doesn’t matter who is responsible for the mess, can’t trade everyone so need to make a big change. This team is playing like garbage and all I hear are stupid cliches after the game from Sullivan.


I'm not there, yet. Stupid cliches are part of the job of the head coach - any head coach. I know they don't make you or me happy, but it's not like the coach is going to divulge critical player issues or deep thoughts on TV. I mean, can you see HCMS saying this in the post-game press conference? "Yeah, so-and-so is border-line psychotic and won't drive the center like we want him to do and that's why we didn't score a goal on that shift in the 2nd period." :lol: Uhmm. I don't think so. :roll: :wink:
HCMS came into a mess in 2015 and pulled the team out of a funk. He's gone 2 for 3 in Stanley Cups. Large chunks of the team have been replaced, including a significant change in assistant coaches (Recchi for Tocchet). I would not pull the trigger on replacing Sullivan at this point. Let's give the guy the chance to right the ship.


Wait you mean these public interviews don't tell truths? Like when Sullivan came to Jack Johnson's defense when he was on the ice for every single goal against? You're right, it's not like he's going to come out and say that Johnson is playing like a replacement level player like he's done his whole career. He's going to try to build confidence in him and BS his way through the interview. Or like when they ask Crosby if he likes playing with Reaves? We really expect him to say no? There's a few out there that tell it like it is, and they're usually labelled as idiots. (Wilson, Torts, etc)
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby Puck-Lurker on Tue Nov 20, 2018 5:35 pm

murphydump55 wrote:
IntangibleBeer wrote:
DelPen wrote:Sullivan needs to go. Doesn’t matter who is responsible for the mess, can’t trade everyone so need to make a big change. This team is playing like garbage and all I hear are stupid cliches after the game from Sullivan.


I'm not there, yet. Stupid cliches are part of the job of the head coach - any head coach. I know they don't make you or me happy, but it's not like the coach is going to divulge critical player issues or deep thoughts on TV. I mean, can you see HCMS saying this in the post-game press conference? "Yeah, so-and-so is border-line psychotic and won't drive the center like we want him to do and that's why we didn't score a goal on that shift in the 2nd period." :lol: Uhmm. I don't think so. :roll: :wink:
HCMS came into a mess in 2015 and pulled the team out of a funk. He's gone 2 for 3 in Stanley Cups. Large chunks of the team have been replaced, including a significant change in assistant coaches (Recchi for Tocchet). I would not pull the trigger on replacing Sullivan at this point. Let's give the guy the chance to right the ship.


Wait you mean these public interviews don't tell truths? Like when Sullivan came to Jack Johnson's defense when he was on the ice for every single goal against? You're right, it's not like he's going to come out and say that Johnson is playing like a replacement level player like he's done his whole career. He's going to try to build confidence in him and BS his way through the interview. Or like when they ask Crosby if he likes playing with Reaves? We really expect him to say no? There's a few out there that tell it like it is, and they're usually labelled as idiots. (Wilson, Torts, etc)

Call me crazy... But I think there just might be compelling evidence Tortorella is an idiot.

He doesn't tell it like it is, he tells you what best served his ego to say.

No class.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby Malkintent on Tue Nov 20, 2018 7:42 pm

Wilson tells it like it is? I thought he just headshots people and is massively overpaid.
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Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby murphydump55 on Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:56 pm

Malkintent wrote:Wilson tells it like it is? I thought he just headshots people and is massively overpaid.


Ron Wilson
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