Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Forum for Pittsburgh Penguins-related messages.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby murphydump55 on Tue Nov 20, 2018 8:57 pm

Puck-Lurker wrote:
murphydump55 wrote:
IntangibleBeer wrote:
DelPen wrote:Sullivan needs to go. Doesn’t matter who is responsible for the mess, can’t trade everyone so need to make a big change. This team is playing like garbage and all I hear are stupid cliches after the game from Sullivan.


I'm not there, yet. Stupid cliches are part of the job of the head coach - any head coach. I know they don't make you or me happy, but it's not like the coach is going to divulge critical player issues or deep thoughts on TV. I mean, can you see HCMS saying this in the post-game press conference? "Yeah, so-and-so is border-line psychotic and won't drive the center like we want him to do and that's why we didn't score a goal on that shift in the 2nd period." :lol: Uhmm. I don't think so. :roll: :wink:
HCMS came into a mess in 2015 and pulled the team out of a funk. He's gone 2 for 3 in Stanley Cups. Large chunks of the team have been replaced, including a significant change in assistant coaches (Recchi for Tocchet). I would not pull the trigger on replacing Sullivan at this point. Let's give the guy the chance to right the ship.


Wait you mean these public interviews don't tell truths? Like when Sullivan came to Jack Johnson's defense when he was on the ice for every single goal against? You're right, it's not like he's going to come out and say that Johnson is playing like a replacement level player like he's done his whole career. He's going to try to build confidence in him and BS his way through the interview. Or like when they ask Crosby if he likes playing with Reaves? We really expect him to say no? There's a few out there that tell it like it is, and they're usually labelled as idiots. (Wilson, Torts, etc)

Call me crazy... But I think there just might be compelling evidence Tortorella is an idiot.

He doesn't tell it like it is, he tells you what best served his ego to say.

No class.


Agreed. I just meant he speaks his mind, as minute is it may be. He rarely holds back, whether it's right or wrong, he's not using cliches and talking around a subject. Most recently was his blurb about the league being too soft and buddy-buddy. He's still an idiot, don't get me wrong.
murphydump55
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,856
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:06 pm
Location: the real hockeyville and apparently a janitor from Eastern Canada LOL

Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby Southern Fan on Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:26 am

Pens need to go with Murray in goal even if he gives up 3 goals on 25 shots. Either it will work or we will be in on the Hughes sweepstakes.

Five guys in front him need to figure out how to defend for him.

Blowing up the team won’t do anything.

If you look at Metro standings, things aren’t as bleak as they seem.

With Cullen out, we are a healthy scratch of Johnson away from 80% of the complaints going away on the board.
Southern Fan
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 3,168
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 9:51 am

Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby johnnews on Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:33 am

This team gets healthy tonight with Sid back, joining Brassard's return. They'll go on a run, finish 4th in the conference and this will all be forgotten.
johnnews
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 216
Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 10:44 am

Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby penny lane on Wed Nov 21, 2018 8:58 am

I've washed the negative vibes away~ I'm on board with johnews/Southern Fan.

Let's Go Pens!
penny lane
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 34,164
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 5:29 pm
Location: Advent is perfect for the start of good play- teamwork.

Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby murphydump55 on Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:41 am

johnnews wrote:This team gets healthy tonight with Sid back, joining Brassard's return. They'll go on a run, finish 4th in the conference and this will all be forgotten.


This isn’t far fetched. I could see it.
murphydump55
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,856
Joined: Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:06 pm
Location: the real hockeyville and apparently a janitor from Eastern Canada LOL

Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby IntangibleBeer on Wed Nov 21, 2018 9:54 am

Southern Fan wrote:Pens need to go with Murray in goal even if he gives up 3 goals on 25 shots. Either it will work or we will be in on the Hughes sweepstakes.

Five guys in front him need to figure out how to defend for him.

Blowing up the team won’t do anything.

If you look at Metro standings, things aren’t as bleak as they seem.

With Cullen out, we are a healthy scratch of Johnson away from 80% of the complaints going away on the board.


:thumb:

I think you're on to something. It is sink or swim time for Murray. DeSmith is a bit better right now, but I don't like him as a starting goalie for the rest of the season.

Apparently, JS' absence, from a defensive aspect, has been huge. Team D as a whole has been mediocre. I'm guessing that defensive assistant coach Jacques Martin has been talking himself blue these past 4 weeks. If he can't get them to play D, I think we definitely need a player or two upgrade. I got a kick out of his one-on-one interview with Errey during the last game. Asked about better D, he said something like the team needs to spend more time in the offensive zone. :lol: Yeah, I guess that would lead to better defense. :wink: (Except when they get caught up ice pinching).

I agree, blowing up the team accomplishes nothing and just means more work and more time spent putting back together players and systems that weren't really broken. I don't know that they are a shift away, as Malkin said, but they might be a major tweak away.

Still time to salvage the season (it's only November), but things need to start happening soon. Can't dig a big hole; you never know when the others teams will catch fire.
IntangibleBeer
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,417
Joined: Sat May 15, 2010 9:17 am
Location: Cranberry Township, PA

Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby RisslingsMissingTeeth on Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:40 am

Keep seeing different people suggest firing MS. That thinking makes no sense to me at all. Kind of like the Hawks firing Q. This team doesn't have much talent. Certainly not enough speed or young guys to match the style of the new NHL. JR danced with the devil to win his cups. Sully is doing what he can with the garbage he's been dealt. You fire a coach because you don't think they are using people correctly or their system is bad. I just don't see this at all with him. Sprong isn't good so giving a bad player more minutes would be an excuse TO fire a coach.

This is team is old and getting slower by the minute. Fire JR and start the rebuild.
RisslingsMissingTeeth
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,239
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby Malkintent on Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:53 am

How have the Pens not gotten better scouts after all these years? Look at the guys teams like the Bolts and Stars get with late picks while the best the Pens seem to do is the occasional depth guy.
Malkintent
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,587
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:14 am
Location: Please help my dog https://www.gofundme.com/sumdm7d8

Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby Pruezy11881 on Wed Nov 21, 2018 11:19 am

RisslingsMissingTeeth wrote:Keep seeing different people suggest firing MS. That thinking makes no sense to me at all. Kind of like the Hawks firing Q. This team doesn't have much talent. Certainly not enough speed or young guys to match the style of the new NHL. JR danced with the devil to win his cups. Sully is doing what he can with the garbage he's been dealt. You fire a coach because you don't think they are using people correctly or their system is bad. I just don't see this at all with him. Sprong isn't good so giving a bad player more minutes would be an excuse TO fire a coach.

This is team is old and getting slower by the minute. Fire JR and start the rebuild.

Bowman and Chirelli fired their respective coaches in an attempt to save their jobs. They are trying to get the whole team's attention to make them play better even though they don't have the talent to compete on a nightly basis. They both are aware that the teams they put together aren't complete and may have made questionable moves/signings or didn't pull the trigger that would help the team. If the firing of the head coach fails to improve the teams performance this season (again based on the players the GMs have or have not put into place) I wouldn't be surprised to see one or both of them replaced by next season. The coaches are essentially scape goats so the GM stays employed even though their own shortcomings have been the root cause all along.
Pruezy11881
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,714
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:09 am
Location: Erie, PA

Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby Daniel on Wed Nov 21, 2018 12:33 pm

Malkintent wrote:How have the Pens not gotten better scouts after all these years? Look at the guys teams like the Bolts and Stars get with late picks while the best the Pens seem to do is the occasional depth guy.


That's a hard question to answer, considering the last couple of years JR has fielded a team with no competition for young players and a coach that would rather have a depth guy per line.
Daniel
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 4,126
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:10 pm
Location: Fort Worth

Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:50 pm

Friedman's 31 thoughts today says Pittsburgh was trying to get Brandon Montour from Anaheim, but the Ducks likely weren't interested. Friedman says Jakob Silverberg is someone who does fit Penguins profile, as he is a bottom 6 guy with 5 goals,5 assists on the season and UFA at season'send.

--Friedman mentioned Penguins and Ducks before possibly making a lateral move, so Maatta for Montour was my guess. Even if Pittsburgh has to throw in a pick, I'd keep pressing this deal.

--For Silverberg, it would likely have to be Rust for Silverberg, but do you give up a guy signed for 4 years for a pending UFA. He's also more on the border of top 6 minutes, so, pressing him as a 3rd or 4th line winger, he's not going to produce like Pittsburgh would need. He's averaging just over 17 minutes per game right now, and has actually averaged a bit higher the past two season. Rust is currently getting just under 2 minutes TOI less per game than Silverberg. Silverberg had 40 points last year, 49 the year before, and two 39 point seasons prior. All 4 of those seasons beat Rust's highest point total of 38.....so, you can get a sense that Silverberg is probably going to be looking for a raise on his 3.75M contract.
FLPensFan
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 9,909
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:30 pm
Location: South Florida

Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby shmenguin on Wed Nov 21, 2018 1:52 pm

If we're talking about an actual shake up, that means doing something drastic. And that doesn't just mean ditching someone we all want ditched. So with that...

Penguins Offer: Kessel, Maatta and J Johnson
Team X Offers: King's Ransom

If a team gets point-per-game Kessel, they'll take on Johnson. And I think there are GM's out there who would covet Maatta - even despite his skating and getting worked over on infinity highlight reels.

I like Kessel's production of course, but I think he still has a lot of problems as a player. Scoring usually wipes those problems away, but in May, after another 90-100 games, all we're going to see are the problems - like last year. I also think his lack of discipline is trickling down the lineup. He's not alone. Sid gets super disengaged for large stretches at a time and Geno is constantly on the verge of doing something irresponsible. Can't exactly trade those guys, but I think we need to make a gesture to the younger players that you can't just play your way out of following the rules. We went through this cycle before...our stars started relying on instinct alone and boom - there we were, losing in spectacular fashion every year. Then we re-calibrated and appropriately tore the league up. We need another re-calibration.

If you think Kessel's scoring is a non-starter for this, keep in mind that he's now running our power play, and getting a boat load of points off of it. He does a great job (when his goofy stick doesn't lead to the worst turnovers you'll ever see), but he's non-essential. We can swing back across the ice over to Sid, put Guentzel in his spot, and you won't see significant a drop off. At even strength, there will likely be a drop off. But the significance depends on the return and how the team progresses. It's NOT a death sentence. Kessel can go, and we'll be fine if things break the right way. If the alternative is just shuffling around guys like Rust and Sprong, that doesn't fix anything.

As far as what we get back, I'm not even sure who would be a potential partner. I would hope to get a young top 6 wing, a puck moving top 4 Dman and some replenishment of the farm. That sets us up nicely going forward.

Guenztel - Sid - Horny
Pearson - Malkin - [ACQUIRED]
Rust - Brassard - Sprong (lol)
Simon - Sheahan/Cullen/Grant/Wilson/Whoever

Letang - Dumo
Schultz - [ACQUIRED]
Oleksiak/Rue/Rikola

Kessel's value will never be higher, and this team may never sink lower. And with this deal, you could replace [ACQUIRED] with something pretty sexy. So let's go.
shmenguin
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 25,068
Joined: Mon Nov 06, 2006 10:34 pm

Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby FLPensFan on Wed Nov 21, 2018 2:15 pm

shmenguin wrote:If we're talking about an actual shake up, that means doing something drastic. And that doesn't just mean ditching someone we all want ditched. So with that...

Penguins Offer: Kessel, Maatta and J Johnson
Team X Offers: King's Ransom

If a team gets point-per-game Kessel, they'll take on Johnson. And I think there are GM's out there who would covet Maatta - even despite his skating and getting worked over on infinity highlight reels.

I like Kessel's production of course, but I think he still has a lot of problems as a player. Scoring usually wipes those problems away, but in May, after another 90-100 games, all we're going to see are the problems - like last year. I also think his lack of discipline is trickling down the lineup. He's not alone. Sid gets super disengaged for large stretches at a time and Geno is constantly on the verge of doing something irresponsible. Can't exactly trade those guys, but I think we need to make a gesture to the younger players that you can't just play your way out of following the rules. We went through this cycle before...our stars started relying on instinct alone and boom - there we were, losing in spectacular fashion every year. Then we re-calibrated and appropriately tore the league up. We need another re-calibration.

If you think Kessel's scoring is a non-starter for this, keep in mind that he's now running our power play, and getting a boat load of points off of it. He does a great job (when his goofy stick doesn't lead to the worst turnovers you'll ever see), but he's non-essential. We can swing back across the ice over to Sid, put Guentzel in his spot, and you won't see significant a drop off. At even strength, there will likely be a drop off. But the significance depends on the return and how the team progresses. It's NOT a death sentence. Kessel can go, and we'll be fine if things break the right way. If the alternative is just shuffling around guys like Rust and Sprong, that doesn't fix anything.

As far as what we get back, I'm not even sure who would be a potential partner. I would hope to get a young top 6 wing, a puck moving top 4 Dman and some replenishment of the farm. That sets us up nicely going forward.

Guenztel - Sid - Horny
Pearson - Malkin - [ACQUIRED]
Rust - Brassard - Sprong (lol)
Simon - Sheahan/Cullen/Grant/Wilson/Whoever

Letang - Dumo
Schultz - [ACQUIRED]
Oleksiak/Rue/Rikola

Kessel's value will never be higher, and this team may never sink lower. And with this deal, you could replace [ACQUIRED] with something pretty sexy. So let's go.

It doesn't sound like Rutherford is looking for a big shakeup right now....probably because there aren't a lot of teams offering what he might want this early in the season. In 2-3 weeks, that may start to change. I'll also add, I think there is ZERO POINT ZERO chance of a team taking on Maatta AND Johnson. Johnson's stuck here. Nobody is going to take him.

I've gone through about half the teams out there so far, and I'm not really seeing a team that lines up well

NJ: Palmieri and Butcher
COL: Zadarov and Landeskog
WPG: Trouba and Conner
CHI: Saad/DeBrincat and Forsling

I don't even really think any of those deals would work. It would probably be much easier to pull off if you traded Kessel and Maatta in separate deals.....Kessel for a defenseman, and Maatta for a forward.
FLPensFan
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 9,909
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:30 pm
Location: South Florida

Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby Cow_Master66 on Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:16 pm

"Time to salvage the season"? For as bad as it's been, this team is sitting 4 wins out of 1st place with 2 games in hand. :pop:
Cow_Master66
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri May 19, 2017 8:41 am

Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby Malkintent on Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:54 pm

Maybe just Kessel and Johnson then Maatta in a separate deal. I don't know. I'm hesitant to trade Kessel and go back to the days of Crosby and Malkin having to score all the goals or we lose.
Malkintent
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,587
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:14 am
Location: Please help my dog https://www.gofundme.com/sumdm7d8

Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby Malkintent on Wed Nov 21, 2018 7:55 pm

Any chance Pens could swing a Maatta/Saad deal? I know Saad sucked since going back to CHI but could be one of those buy low deals that pays off.
Malkintent
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,587
Joined: Mon Jun 08, 2015 1:14 am
Location: Please help my dog https://www.gofundme.com/sumdm7d8

Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby thehockeyguru on Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:23 am

Saw an article that said the Pens made a push for Montour but that the Ducks arent interested in moving him. I cant blame them. Another name that was mentioned was Jakob Silfverberg who is a impending UFA.

He's been consistent the last 4 seasons:
13G-26A
20G 19A
23G 26A
17G 23A

At 3.75M hes 250K more expensive than Rust, 2 years older, but much more productive / consistent. Jakob Silfverberg is a Right Handed shot but plays both wings.

Wonder if down the line a Montour and Silfverberg for Maatta, Rust, plus deal could materialize?
thehockeyguru
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,147
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:43 pm
Location: I'm 30 minutes away, I'll be there in 10.

Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby OKpensfan247 on Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:11 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:Saw an article that said the Pens made a push for Montour but that the Ducks arent interested in moving him. I cant blame them. Another name that was mentioned was Jakob Silfverberg who is a impending UFA.

He's been consistent the last 4 seasons:
13G-26A
20G 19A
23G 26A
17G 23A

At 3.75M hes 250K more expensive than Rust, 2 years older, but much more productive / consistent. Jakob Silfverberg is a Right Handed shot but plays both wings.

Wonder if down the line a Montour and Silfverberg for Maatta, Rust, plus deal could materialize?


Any thoughts on Montour’s and Silfverberg’s speed? Can they play in Sully’s system? I am assuming Montour should easily be faster/quicker than Maatta.
OKpensfan247
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 690
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:51 am
Location: Tulsa, OK

Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby thehockeyguru on Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:25 pm

OKpensfan247 wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:Saw an article that said the Pens made a push for Montour but that the Ducks arent interested in moving him. I cant blame them. Another name that was mentioned was Jakob Silfverberg who is a impending UFA.

He's been consistent the last 4 seasons:
13G-26A
20G 19A
23G 26A
17G 23A

At 3.75M hes 250K more expensive than Rust, 2 years older, but much more productive / consistent. Jakob Silfverberg is a Right Handed shot but plays both wings.

Wonder if down the line a Montour and Silfverberg for Maatta, Rust, plus deal could materialize?


Any thoughts on Montour’s and Silfverberg’s speed? Can they play in Sully’s system? I am assuming Montour should easily be faster/quicker than Maatta.


Compared to Maatta and Cullen they'll look like Apolo anton ohno.
thehockeyguru
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,147
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:43 pm
Location: I'm 30 minutes away, I'll be there in 10.

Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby OKpensfan247 on Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:26 pm

Haha
OKpensfan247
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 690
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:51 am
Location: Tulsa, OK

Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby OKpensfan247 on Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:30 pm

Sad about Cullen looking so slow and out of sorts. I remain hopeful he will still bring value at some point.

Sheahan has not looked much better.
OKpensfan247
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 690
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2012 9:51 am
Location: Tulsa, OK

Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby thehockeyguru on Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:51 pm

OKpensfan247 wrote:Sad about Cullen looking so slow and out of sorts. I remain hopeful he will still bring value at some point.

Sheahan has not looked much better.


I agree, which is why 2.1M for a 4C is crazy. I'm guessing next season Bleuger will be 4C and they spend around 3.5 - 4M on a 3C once Brassard is gone.
thehockeyguru
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,147
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:43 pm
Location: I'm 30 minutes away, I'll be there in 10.

Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby FLPensFan on Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:11 pm

thehockeyguru wrote:
OKpensfan247 wrote:Sad about Cullen looking so slow and out of sorts. I remain hopeful he will still bring value at some point.

Sheahan has not looked much better.


I agree, which is why 2.1M for a 4C is crazy. I'm guessing next season Bleuger will be 4C and they spend around 3.5 - 4M on a 3C once Brassard is gone.

Or, you dump Sheahan at the deadline, and use his 2.1M to resign Brassard. We're paying 3M of Brassards 5M, dumping Sheahan, well have enough to pay Brassard.
FLPensFan
AHL Hall of Famer
AHL Hall of Famer
 
Posts: 9,909
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:30 pm
Location: South Florida

Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby thehockeyguru on Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:15 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
OKpensfan247 wrote:Sad about Cullen looking so slow and out of sorts. I remain hopeful he will still bring value at some point.

Sheahan has not looked much better.


I agree, which is why 2.1M for a 4C is crazy. I'm guessing next season Bleuger will be 4C and they spend around 3.5 - 4M on a 3C once Brassard is gone.

Or, you dump Sheahan at the deadline, and use his 2.1M to resign Brassard. We're paying 3M of Brassards 5M, dumping Sheahan, well have enough to pay Brassard.


My issue there is Brassard is going to be 32 when you resign him. 5M for 4 years is probably what you are looking at, and that is a lot of money and term for a guy who hasn't found linemates he meshes with.

If he gets to free agency I'd see what kind of money Brock Nelson wants. I think he'd slot in very nicely at 3C.
thehockeyguru
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,147
Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 2:43 pm
Location: I'm 30 minutes away, I'll be there in 10.

Re: Shaking up the Penguins, Part 2

Postby Jim on Thu Nov 22, 2018 4:29 pm

Malkintent wrote:Any chance Pens could swing a Maatta/Saad deal? I know Saad sucked since going back to CHI but could be one of those buy low deals that pays off.


Saad at $6M is a horrible contract. Do not want.
Jim
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 16,587
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:18 pm
Location: Pittsburgh

PreviousNext

Return to Pittsburgh Penguins

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 25 guests


e-mail