OK, let's blow it up

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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Great58 on Wed May 15, 2019 10:15 am

FLPensFan wrote:
Jim wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:Dan Kingerski has an article today on Pittsburgh Hockey Now stating that the biggest mistake Rutherford made was not trading Phil Kessel over this past summer.

Kingerski claims trading Hagelin in season was the wrong core piece to trade, and Kessel should have went during the summer. Kingerski claims that several "middling" teams had made some interesting offers for Kessel at the draft, and that recent follow up with Penguins sources have said it definitely was not unanimous among Penguins management to keep Kessel this past summer.


The more that I think on this the more BS I think it is. If this "writer" knows that the offers were interesting, why doesn't he say who and what they are? Journalistic integrity? HA! No. You can't state specific when there are no specifics to state.

I'm by no means defending Kingerski's credibility, but, it's pretty simple....if, for example, only 4 people knew about said interesting offer(s), and, for example, Rutherford and Guerin are two of the 4, well, you've probably just got someone in some hot water for leaking information they shouldn't have, and it's likely not hard to narrow down who was the leak. And then at that point, if they still have a job, they aren't going to share information with you anymore.

People tend to share a lot off the record. You break that trust, you won't be reporting with any decent sources in the future.

Wasn't Kingerski the source of the rumor that a trade of Kessel to the Wild at the draft is a done deal? I'll eat my hat if that happens, but because of the source I'd be willing to bet that that WON'T happen.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby 100565 on Wed May 15, 2019 10:17 am

FLPensFan wrote:

There is some good and bad to this, in terms of the Penguins offseason. The bad is, most of the guys being talked about in the trade sense are pretty much at their low point in terms of value.....Johnson, Hornqvist, Maatta, Kessel, Letang.

The good news, however, is there appear to be a lot of teams that are going to be looking to shake things up this offseason. Whether any, all, or part of it happens remains to be seen. I was going to do an in-depth on this, but a quick rundown shows:

--Florida is said to be going hard after Panarin and Bobrovsky. Maybe they go there. What happens if they don't?
--Columbus may be losing Panarin and Bobrovsky, and Duchene, and Dzingel. What are they going to do?
--The Islanders have a lot of UFAs and RFAs: Eberle, Nelson, Greiss, Lee all UFA. Beauvillier and Da Colle RFA. Can they sign them all? How does that affect teams?
--Edmonton just brought in Holland. I don't see a "one fell swoop" type of activity, but his job is to start shaping that roster into a playoff team.
--Tampa has 74M committed next season for 17 players. They have 3 UFAs on defense, and Brayden Point is looking at 5-7M on an RFA deal.
--Vancouver has 9 RFAs on their NHL roster right now, including Brock Boeser. A bunch on defense, and Edler as a UFA.
--Nashville is said to be contemplating moving PK Subban
--Ottawa is rebuilding, and has a lot of "free parking" space available just to get to the cap floor.
--Winnipeg has 12 players committed next season, 55.5M in cap space committed. Laine and Kyle Conner are RFAs and will need sizeable deals. Jacob Trouba is an RFA and will be looking for a raise on his 5.5M deal. Tyler Myers is a UFA. Are they going to try and resign Kevin Hayes? Lots of decisions here.
--Rangers are rebuilding. They have some money. They have picks. They have a few younger guys who are RFAs (Buchnevich, Lemieux, Pionk, Deangelo, Claesson)
--Vegas already has 82.3M committed to next season for 17 players. That's the most of anyone in the league, and they have William Karlsson, Nosek, Gusev, and Schuldt to resign as RFAs, plus fill out their roster. They are going to have to move some players.
--LA has been looking to rebuild roster all season.

Add in Pittsburgh looking to make moves, and that's almost half the league that has some big roster and cap decisions to make this offseason. That could end up being the saving grace for Rutherford. There are several teams (PIT, VGK, TB) that are going to have to make some type of moves just to field a full team under the cap. There are several other teams (CBJ, WPG, NYI) that have key players as UFAs or RFAs that may affect their roster decisions.


Agreed. A perfect storm brewing for major roster changes this offseason - league wide.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby 1967penguins on Wed May 15, 2019 10:27 am

FLPensFan wrote:Sullivan needs to stop playing favorites for some of these 3rd/4th line, bottom pairing guys. He preaches "putting the best team on the ice to win," but in reality he strays from that. He needs to do a better job in that regard.


I wholeheartedly agree with this. Do you think it is stubbornness or insecurity that drives these types of decisions? IMO, Sullivan is starting to embody some of Bylsma's unwillingness to allow younger players a shot, with the obvious exception of his "favorites".
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby KG on Wed May 15, 2019 11:30 am

Was just reading EJ Hradek said that Detroit May move Athanasiou for some defense.

FLP you called Athanasiou for Maatta. Maybe it happens?!
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Jim on Wed May 15, 2019 11:49 am

The reality of the game is that you either have a commitment to youth, or a commitment to win now. You can't do both.

You either:
Accept that you are not going to win now, nor for the next few years because your stars are not star enough, and go with trying to fill in with young high potential and hope that they all get good enough to win before their contracts get too pricey. Moving older players out for picks and prospects that will help 5 years from now.

Try to win now because your stars are star enough so you keep filling in around them with needed parts to win now before those stars go over the hill. Moving picks and prospects for the pieces that can hopefully deliver now as opposed to 5 years from now.

A youth movement while trying to win now doesn't work. The pieces simply don't fit together.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby FLPensFan on Wed May 15, 2019 12:01 pm

KG wrote:Was just reading EJ Hradek said that Detroit May move Athanasiou for some defense.

FLP you called Athanasiou for Maatta. Maybe it happens?!

If it happens, I think Penguins are going to need to kick in something extra now.

Last offseason, I called for a Maatta for Athanisiou trade. Jim correctly enlightened me that Athanisiou really hadn't done much, and Maatta was overpayment. In the end, after more research, I whole heartedly agreed with Jim. AA had 17 goals and 33 points last year.

This year he jumped to 30 goals, 54 points. He's got speed, he can play all 3 forward positions (LW/C I believe are his best spots.), and he's very good defensively. He's 3M for the 2019-2020 season, but another 25-30 goal season, 50-60 points, and he jumps to 5-6M a year range. Expect that to happen.

Larkin, Mantha, Athanisiou, Bertuzzi, Rasmussen, & Svechnikov (Sergei's older brother Evgeny) all up front Detroit. 6 higher end forwards all under 25.
Now you look at their defense, and you have DeKeyser at 29, Witkowski at 29 (also UFA), you have Ericsson and Daley both signed for 19-20 and both 35 years old, and you have 38 year old Kronwall as a UFA. They also have 33 year old Mike Green who missed half the season with some virus/infectious disease.

I could see a Maatta and Simon/pick for AA. Detroit has tons of youth up front to spare. I try to look at things objectively from both sides. If I were them, I would be willing to move a young forward for a younger defenseman. They had problems getting AA to sign the current 3M deal, so he seems like the most likely candidate. Maatta fits the young defenseman mold. It would be their evaluation of his talent. I personally think Maatta has it in him to play better....but just not under Sullivan. Maatta did while under Bylsma, and regressed under Sullivan. I think a change of scenery would do Maatta wonders.

Or the shorter answer, yes, I would add something from the Penguins side, but I think AA would be a good add and fit with the supposed team identity.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby FLPensFan on Wed May 15, 2019 12:12 pm

Jim wrote:The reality of the game is that you either have a commitment to youth, or a commitment to win now. You can't do both.

You either:
Accept that you are not going to win now, nor for the next few years because your stars are not star enough, and go with trying to fill in with young high potential and hope that they all get good enough to win before their contracts get too pricey. Moving older players out for picks and prospects that will help 5 years from now.

Try to win now because your stars are star enough so you keep filling in around them with needed parts to win now before those stars go over the hill. Moving picks and prospects for the pieces that can hopefully deliver now as opposed to 5 years from now.

A youth movement while trying to win now doesn't work. The pieces simply don't fit together.

1000% false. I think people get carried away with the term youth, thinking it's some young, inexperienced green rookie who won't do much of anything for several years. Or that by going youth, you trade away everyone over 30 for a bunch of guys 24 and under.

The Penguins have Guentzel at 24. The trade for McCann and Bjugstad is exactly the type of deals Rutherford needs to be looking for. McCann is 22 and shows some possible potential to be a 20 goal, 50 point guy. Rutherford also added one young player for another with the Sprong trade. So now we have a 22 year old defenseman who seems like he could be a solid #4 d-man in another year or so.

The Penguins could do themselves some favors and add another 1 or 2 young guys who have a chance to be part of their core. Continuing to hang onto Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Kessel, and Hornqvist as your core guys is a recipe for disaster. Guentzel has moved himself into the mix. I'd like to see McCann flourish and possibly be in the conversation as one of their core guys. I'd love to see the Penguins move out a Kessel or Hornqvist type, for whatever the return, but eventually replace them with another 24 or under type forward that has 20 goal-50 point potential.

I see know reason why doing that means you can't win. Carolina has Staal (30), Williams (37), and McIlhenney (35) as over 30 players. That's it. I don't think anyone saw them as contenders. They had the right pieces. They made it work. The Penguins don't need to go that drastic, but Carolina is proof that you can be young and a successful playoff team.

Boston is doing it the opposite way. Bergeron, Krejci, Chara, Marchand, Krug, and Rask have been around for awhile.....but they have added some good young pieces like Pastranak, DeBrusk, Heinen, McAvoy, and Carlo into their core. But I also see their window closer to closed than being a big factor over the next 5 years.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Jim on Wed May 15, 2019 12:40 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
KG wrote:Was just reading EJ Hradek said that Detroit May move Athanasiou for some defense.

FLP you called Athanasiou for Maatta. Maybe it happens?!

If it happens, I think Penguins are going to need to kick in something extra now.

Last offseason, I called for a Maatta for Athanisiou trade. Jim correctly enlightened me that Athanisiou really hadn't done much, and Maatta was overpayment. In the end, after more research, I whole heartedly agreed with Jim. AA had 17 goals and 33 points last year.

This year he jumped to 30 goals, 54 points. He's got speed, he can play all 3 forward positions (LW/C I believe are his best spots.), and he's very good defensively. He's 3M for the 2019-2020 season, but another 25-30 goal season, 50-60 points, and he jumps to 5-6M a year range. Expect that to happen.

Larkin, Mantha, Athanisiou, Bertuzzi, Rasmussen, & Svechnikov (Sergei's older brother Evgeny) all up front Detroit. 6 higher end forwards all under 25.
Now you look at their defense, and you have DeKeyser at 29, Witkowski at 29 (also UFA), you have Ericsson and Daley both signed for 19-20 and both 35 years old, and you have 38 year old Kronwall as a UFA. They also have 33 year old Mike Green who missed half the season with some virus/infectious disease.

I could see a Maatta and Simon/pick for AA. Detroit has tons of youth up front to spare. I try to look at things objectively from both sides. If I were them, I would be willing to move a young forward for a younger defenseman. They had problems getting AA to sign the current 3M deal, so he seems like the most likely candidate. Maatta fits the young defenseman mold. It would be their evaluation of his talent. I personally think Maatta has it in him to play better....but just not under Sullivan. Maatta did while under Bylsma, and regressed under Sullivan. I think a change of scenery would do Maatta wonders.

Or the shorter answer, yes, I would add something from the Penguins side, but I think AA would be a good add and fit with the supposed team identity.


I still don't like Athanisiou. A lot of guys a have a career year early/mid career... then go back to being meh.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Ericf on Wed May 15, 2019 1:01 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
Jim wrote:The reality of the game is that you either have a commitment to youth, or a commitment to win now. You can't do both.

You either:
Accept that you are not going to win now, nor for the next few years because your stars are not star enough, and go with trying to fill in with young high potential and hope that they all get good enough to win before their contracts get too pricey. Moving older players out for picks and prospects that will help 5 years from now.

Try to win now because your stars are star enough so you keep filling in around them with needed parts to win now before those stars go over the hill. Moving picks and prospects for the pieces that can hopefully deliver now as opposed to 5 years from now.

A youth movement while trying to win now doesn't work. The pieces simply don't fit together.

1000% false. I think people get carried away with the term youth, thinking it's some young, inexperienced green rookie who won't do much of anything for several years. Or that by going youth, you trade away everyone over 30 for a bunch of guys 24 and under.

The Penguins have Guentzel at 24. The trade for McCann and Bjugstad is exactly the type of deals Rutherford needs to be looking for. McCann is 22 and shows some possible potential to be a 20 goal, 50 point guy. Rutherford also added one young player for another with the Sprong trade. So now we have a 22 year old defenseman who seems like he could be a solid #4 d-man in another year or so.

The Penguins could do themselves some favors and add another 1 or 2 young guys who have a chance to be part of their core. Continuing to hang onto Crosby, Malkin, Letang, Kessel, and Hornqvist as your core guys is a recipe for disaster. Guentzel has moved himself into the mix. I'd like to see McCann flourish and possibly be in the conversation as one of their core guys. I'd love to see the Penguins move out a Kessel or Hornqvist type, for whatever the return, but eventually replace them with another 24 or under type forward that has 20 goal-50 point potential.

I see know reason why doing that means you can't win. Carolina has Staal (30), Williams (37), and McIlhenney (35) as over 30 players. That's it. I don't think anyone saw them as contenders. They had the right pieces. They made it work. The Penguins don't need to go that drastic, but Carolina is proof that you can be young and a successful playoff team.

Boston is doing it the opposite way. Bergeron, Krejci, Chara, Marchand, Krug, and Rask have been around for awhile.....but they have added some good young pieces like Pastranak, DeBrusk, Heinen, McAvoy, and Carlo into their core. But I also see their window closer to closed than being a big factor over the next 5 years.


Boston is a good model for what we should do, but the problem is those young guys were all 2014-16 draft picks, mostly first round, that Boston hit on, and it still took a few years for them to get to where they are now. They were in the SCF in 2013. Pens don’t have the quality of young people that were brought into Boston’s roster. So for the Pens to do that they need to find trades for young guys who are ready to play now. Do you see trading Phil, Maatta, Horny etc bringing back the quality of player as Pastrnak? We’ll be lucky to get a second round draft pick and a B prospect for any of those guys. Just reality. Either the Pens continue to make minor roster patches for better players like Phil and Horny being moved out for the next three years. Or they need to load up on picks and prospects and hope in 3-4 years they’ll be a contender again
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Cow_Master66 on Wed May 15, 2019 5:35 pm

For those that want JJ moved so bad, would you trade our 1st to make it happen?
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby FLPensFan on Wed May 15, 2019 6:46 pm

Cow_Master66 wrote:For those that want JJ moved so bad, would you trade our 1st to make it happen?

Absolutely not. And I don't think the cost to take on a bad contract has ever been a 1st rounder. The Wings did it with Datsyuk, but, they swapped 1st rounders (moved down 4 spots).

I've looked at guys like Horton, Clarkson, Bolland, Pronger.....none of those trades included 1st rounders. For as much as we don't like Johnson's contract, all those other deals were 5M plus AAV deals. Johnson should not cost an arm and a leg extra to move. Maybe you make a hockey trade where you give up something you normally wouldn't. I'll just use Bellerive as an example. Maybe Ottawa liked Bellerive and wanted him included in a deal. Maybe you go back and revisit, and rework a deal giving up Bellerive, getting what the Penguins want back in return, but Ottawa has to take Johnson too, and Penguins kick in an extra pick.

Johnson has the potential to be the lowest paid defenseman on the Penguins blueline next year (although, I doubt Pettersson gets that big of a raise just yet). That won't work.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby alancac98 on Wed May 15, 2019 7:06 pm

Daniel wrote:
Ericf wrote:
KG wrote:I'm surprised we haven't heard at least rumbles of Sully not being back. The fact they are talking about moving Geno/Phil/Letang shows you what the organization thinks of Sully. Or at least what JR thinks of Sully.


Exactly. That JR elevates Sully over his star players—remember his after season quote where he listed Sid, Murray and Sully as his centerpieces moving forward—tells you how out of touch he or the FO is. The coach doesn’t make the players. Very scared for this team with JR and Sully at the helm for the next X years


I think what makes it worse is JR seemingly not getting Sullivan players that fit his system. He's praising the coach while at the same time retarding his ability to coach to the scheme that he wants to coach to. Frankly, with all the discussion of who goes JR tops the list.


Already said it once, JR should go before anyone else. Give Sully a GM that will get players to play to his system and we will head back to the SC!
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby alancac98 on Wed May 15, 2019 7:11 pm

pens_CT wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:I am at the same point most are here as well. I like Sully, and think he could be here long term BUT if the star players are not down with his message then the decision is easy... Sully goes. I feel the same way with JR as well. JR goes wayyyy before Geno goes. Not even a discussion as far as I am concerned.


I don’t know maybe it’s my cynical view of the world but when you have the “core” of this team on its fourth coach, maybe it’s time for them to take responsibility for last season and play a style which has been proven to work (two cups). I’m tired of changing coaches because some members of the “core” feel it’s too hard to play the coach’s system. If they don’t like it’s time to trade some of them.


Here, Here! The coach coaches and the players play, period. The players should not be dictating the way a coach handles the team. Are the Pens now the Steelers, part 2? From my perspective, Sully stays and any player that doesn't get on board can go elsewhere! Those that want Sully gone thinking that he has worn out his welcome with the players are supporting the idea that the players call all of the shot. So, do you really think the players will listen to another coach if they decide not to "buy in" to said coach? Seriously? Is that how you want this team to be ran? We already have that **** with Tomlin and the Steelers - we don't need it with the Pens!
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby thehockeyguru on Thu May 16, 2019 7:38 am

FLPensFan wrote:
Cow_Master66 wrote:For those that want JJ moved so bad, would you trade our 1st to make it happen?

Absolutely not. And I don't think the cost to take on a bad contract has ever been a 1st rounder. The Wings did it with Datsyuk, but, they swapped 1st rounders (moved down 4 spots).

I've looked at guys like Horton, Clarkson, Bolland, Pronger.....none of those trades included 1st rounders. For as much as we don't like Johnson's contract, all those other deals were 5M plus AAV deals. Johnson should not cost an arm and a leg extra to move. Maybe you make a hockey trade where you give up something you normally wouldn't. I'll just use Bellerive as an example. Maybe Ottawa liked Bellerive and wanted him included in a deal. Maybe you go back and revisit, and rework a deal giving up Bellerive, getting what the Penguins want back in return, but Ottawa has to take Johnson too, and Penguins kick in an extra pick.

Johnson has the potential to be the lowest paid defenseman on the Penguins blueline next year (although, I doubt Pettersson gets that big of a raise just yet). That won't work.


None of those guys actually played though, they used the salary to get to the floor and put those players on LTIR. Johnson would come in and require a jersey and roster spot.

Still dont think it's worth a 1st but it is a little different situation.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby FLPensFan on Thu May 16, 2019 9:37 am

thehockeyguru wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
Cow_Master66 wrote:For those that want JJ moved so bad, would you trade our 1st to make it happen?

Absolutely not. And I don't think the cost to take on a bad contract has ever been a 1st rounder. The Wings did it with Datsyuk, but, they swapped 1st rounders (moved down 4 spots).

I've looked at guys like Horton, Clarkson, Bolland, Pronger.....none of those trades included 1st rounders. For as much as we don't like Johnson's contract, all those other deals were 5M plus AAV deals. Johnson should not cost an arm and a leg extra to move. Maybe you make a hockey trade where you give up something you normally wouldn't. I'll just use Bellerive as an example. Maybe Ottawa liked Bellerive and wanted him included in a deal. Maybe you go back and revisit, and rework a deal giving up Bellerive, getting what the Penguins want back in return, but Ottawa has to take Johnson too, and Penguins kick in an extra pick.

Johnson has the potential to be the lowest paid defenseman on the Penguins blueline next year (although, I doubt Pettersson gets that big of a raise just yet). That won't work.


None of those guys actually played though, they used the salary to get to the floor and put those players on LTIR. Johnson would come in and require a jersey and roster spot.

Still dont think it's worth a 1st but it is a little different situation.

I think there are better ways to move him without giving up a first.

Two that come to mind.....Moving him to Ottawa with a pick for Mike Condon. Condon has one more year at 2.4M, and Ottawa is burying him in the minors to lessen the cap hit. We could actually use a goalie like Condon if Jarry goes (and doubtful anybody is going to touch him on waivers at 2.4M).

The other would be sending him to Detroit, say Maatta and Johnson for Athanisiou and Franzen/Zetterberg. 19-20 is the last season for Franzen's almost 4M dead cap hit, and Zetterberg has 19-20 and the following year of a 6M dead cap hit. Not sure if dumping one of those cap hits helps Detroit (I would think it is since DET has the biggest cap hit right now). We'd deal with 1-2 years of LTIR mode and no cap banking, in return for getting out of the final 3-4 years of Johnson's contract.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Jim on Thu May 16, 2019 10:12 am

This is all assuming that anyone with a Penguin logo on their paycheck actually intends to try to, or even want to, trade Johnson.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby thehockeyguru on Thu May 16, 2019 10:14 am

FLPensFan wrote:
thehockeyguru wrote:
FLPensFan wrote:
Cow_Master66 wrote:For those that want JJ moved so bad, would you trade our 1st to make it happen?

Absolutely not. And I don't think the cost to take on a bad contract has ever been a 1st rounder. The Wings did it with Datsyuk, but, they swapped 1st rounders (moved down 4 spots).

I've looked at guys like Horton, Clarkson, Bolland, Pronger.....none of those trades included 1st rounders. For as much as we don't like Johnson's contract, all those other deals were 5M plus AAV deals. Johnson should not cost an arm and a leg extra to move. Maybe you make a hockey trade where you give up something you normally wouldn't. I'll just use Bellerive as an example. Maybe Ottawa liked Bellerive and wanted him included in a deal. Maybe you go back and revisit, and rework a deal giving up Bellerive, getting what the Penguins want back in return, but Ottawa has to take Johnson too, and Penguins kick in an extra pick.

Johnson has the potential to be the lowest paid defenseman on the Penguins blueline next year (although, I doubt Pettersson gets that big of a raise just yet). That won't work.


None of those guys actually played though, they used the salary to get to the floor and put those players on LTIR. Johnson would come in and require a jersey and roster spot.

Still dont think it's worth a 1st but it is a little different situation.

I think there are better ways to move him without giving up a first.

Two that come to mind.....Moving him to Ottawa with a pick for Mike Condon. Condon has one more year at 2.4M, and Ottawa is burying him in the minors to lessen the cap hit. We could actually use a goalie like Condon if Jarry goes (and doubtful anybody is going to touch him on waivers at 2.4M).

The other would be sending him to Detroit, say Maatta and Johnson for Athanisiou and Franzen/Zetterberg. 19-20 is the last season for Franzen's almost 4M dead cap hit, and Zetterberg has 19-20 and the following year of a 6M dead cap hit. Not sure if dumping one of those cap hits helps Detroit (I would think it is since DET has the biggest cap hit right now). We'd deal with 1-2 years of LTIR mode and no cap banking, in return for getting out of the final 3-4 years of Johnson's contract.


Athanisiou would be a huge get. I know hes listed as a C, but hes the solution for Malkin's LW
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby FLPensFan on Thu May 16, 2019 11:02 am

Jim wrote:This is all assuming that anyone with a Penguin logo on their paycheck actually intends to try to, or even want to, trade Johnson.

Well, I'm not a mind-reader, but Sullivan sitting Johnson for Game 1 after playing him all 82 games in the regular season is hopefully a telling sign of where Sully stands on the matter.

GMJR, on the other hand.....yeah, you are right. They've got to want to move him, and as much as I want to believe they see it, still not sure GMJR does.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Jim on Thu May 16, 2019 12:14 pm

FLPensFan wrote:
Jim wrote:This is all assuming that anyone with a Penguin logo on their paycheck actually intends to try to, or even want to, trade Johnson.

Well, I'm not a mind-reader, but Sullivan sitting Johnson for Game 1 after playing him all 82 games in the regular season is hopefully a telling sign of where Sully stands on the matter.

GMJR, on the other hand.....yeah, you are right. They've got to want to move him, and as much as I want to believe they see it, still not sure GMJR does.


Johnson could have had the green apple squirts for game 1.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Cow_Master66 on Thu May 16, 2019 12:41 pm

Jim wrote:This is all assuming that anyone with a Penguin logo on their paycheck actually intends to try to, or even want to, trade Johnson.


I don't think the brass wants to move him. I think they would have been satisfied with his play after November. I was just taking a straw poll from those who want him gone.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby steelershark on Thu May 16, 2019 5:11 pm

Pens lose 4-3 in OT, 3-1, 4-1, 3-1 to the Islanders and its like 2010 with the Rangers. Only instead of MAF losing the series, it's Jack Johnson. wow!!
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Maestro on Thu May 16, 2019 7:59 pm

alancac98 wrote:
pens_CT wrote:
lemieuxReturns wrote:I am at the same point most are here as well. I like Sully, and think he could be here long term BUT if the star players are not down with his message then the decision is easy... Sully goes. I feel the same way with JR as well. JR goes wayyyy before Geno goes. Not even a discussion as far as I am concerned.


I don’t know maybe it’s my cynical view of the world but when you have the “core” of this team on its fourth coach, maybe it’s time for them to take responsibility for last season and play a style which has been proven to work (two cups). I’m tired of changing coaches because some members of the “core” feel it’s too hard to play the coach’s system. If they don’t like it’s time to trade some of them.


Here, Here! The coach coaches and the players play, period. The players should not be dictating the way a coach handles the team. Are the Pens now the Steelers, part 2? From my perspective, Sully stays and any player that doesn't get on board can go elsewhere! Those that want Sully gone thinking that he has worn out his welcome with the players are supporting the idea that the players call all of the shot. So, do you really think the players will listen to another coach if they decide not to "buy in" to said coach? Seriously? Is that how you want this team to be ran? We already have that **** with Tomlin and the Steelers - we don't need it with the Pens!



In contemporary sports, the individual matters more than team (Twitter followers; Brand) - Millennials do not respond well to criticism.

Can't ice a bunch of 40+ ers

We must all adapt.

Or die.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby FLPensFan on Thu May 16, 2019 8:13 pm

steelershark wrote:Pens lose 4-3 in OT, 3-1, 4-1, 3-1 to the Islanders and its like 2010 with the Rangers. Only instead of MAF losing the series, it's Jack Johnson. wow!!

Hmmm...not sure I've seen anyone here saying Jack Johnson lost us the series. Matter of fact, I'm quite certain nobody here is saying that.

What we are saying is, Jack Johnson doesn't fit the style of play the Penguins identify with.....that his play was just as bad as the decade worth of data saying it was a bad signing....that this team has way too much cap $$ spent on defense...this team has problems generating offense from the backend....and that JJ's contract is not very good.


Image
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby Malkintent on Thu May 16, 2019 8:35 pm

steelershark wrote:Pens lose 4-3 in OT, 3-1, 4-1, 3-1 to the Islanders and its like 2010 with the Rangers. Only instead of MAF losing the series, it's Jack Johnson. wow!!

Literally no one said it was all his fault and what about the 2010 Rangers? In 2010 the Pens lost to the Habs.
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Re: OK, let's blow it up

Postby thehockeyguru on Fri May 17, 2019 8:23 am

FLPensFan wrote:
steelershark wrote:Pens lose 4-3 in OT, 3-1, 4-1, 3-1 to the Islanders and its like 2010 with the Rangers. Only instead of MAF losing the series, it's Jack Johnson. wow!!

Hmmm...not sure I've seen anyone here saying Jack Johnson lost us the series. Matter of fact, I'm quite certain nobody here is saying that.

What we are saying is, Jack Johnson doesn't fit the style of play the Penguins identify with.....that his play was just as bad as the decade worth of data saying it was a bad signing....that this team has way too much cap $$ spent on defense...this team has problems generating offense from the backend....and that JJ's contract is not very good.


Image


I agree that several D have to go given their cost but HOW can anyone think Gudbranson should be one of them?

Look at his stats since he joined the Pens, given it's just a 19 game sample. 19 games - 0 goals 2 assists +7 and only 4 PIMS. ATOI 18:58. CF% 54.7

Factor in the guys intangibles, like his pedigree and his willingness to stick up for teammates and his ability to clear the front of the net, you just dont move this guy. IMO you find a slick puck moving LHD and have Gudbranson be apart of your 2nd pairing.
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