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COVID-19 and the Penguins

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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby Humperdink on Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:25 pm

Cow_Master66 wrote:Just another topic for people to fight about....Not why I'm posting it, but I'm sure it will happen.

As a fairly staunch Libertarian, the state of the media in this country is pathetic. I watch Fox News all day in my home office, but I read CNN and will even throw on MSNBC as well because I like to hear what each side is saying. It's interesting to me...Doesn't make me mad, I keep my thoughts to myself unless someone wants to discuss which I'm more than capable of doing without raising my voice. Obviously, the lives of people and state of the economy needs to be top of mind, but for God sakes, I hope sometime in the near future people rise up and demand fair and balanced media coverage. By demand, I mean tune out of this **** (and I'm including all 3 networks above, including the one I'm most guilty of watching), and run them out of business. Will it ever happen? Of course not, but my lord journalism is totally inept anymore. Is it that far off from state-run Communist party media? Maybe, I dunno.

Just my rant for the week :) Hope everyone is staying safe and wishing all the small-business owners out there the best as well! I personally love to cook every night, but have made a point to order take out 3-4 nights a week to try and support the restaurants around me and hope others who can do the same.


I agree. :thumb:

Interesting that select NPR stations are not showing President Trump's new conferences.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby LimerickPensFan on Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:27 pm

Daniel wrote:Small business administration declared an emergency in late January and started giving low interest loans to small businesses.


Hopefully, that will be enough, but I have my doubts.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby LimerickPensFan on Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:29 pm

Cow_Master66 wrote:Just another topic for people to fight about....Not why I'm posting it, but I'm sure it will happen.

As a fairly staunch Libertarian, the state of the media in this country is pathetic. I watch Fox News all day in my home office, but I read CNN and will even throw on MSNBC as well because I like to hear what each side is saying. It's interesting to me...Doesn't make me mad, I keep my thoughts to myself unless someone wants to discuss which I'm more than capable of doing without raising my voice. Obviously, the lives of people and state of the economy needs to be top of mind, but for God sakes, I hope sometime in the near future people rise up and demand fair and balanced media coverage. By demand, I mean tune out of this **** (and I'm including all 3 networks above, including the one I'm most guilty of watching), and run them out of business. Will it ever happen? Of course not, but my lord journalism is totally inept anymore. Is it that far off from state-run Communist party media? Maybe, I dunno.

Just my rant for the week :) Hope everyone is staying safe and wishing all the small-business owners out there the best as well! I personally love to cook every night, but have made a point to order take out 3-4 nights a week to try and support the restaurants around me and hope others who can do the same.

Hear! Hear!
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby Humperdink on Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:50 pm

The domino effect. Cheesesteak Factory has announced they will not pay April's rent at any of their 294 locations. Of course, malls and strip centers were in terrible financial shape going in to this pandemic.

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/chees ... nt-april-1

Edit to add: Speaking of terrible financial shape, General Electric was in debt to the tune of $60 +/- billion. We shall see how well their lobbyists performed over the last few weeks once the dust settles.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby interstorm on Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:08 pm

Cow_Master66 wrote:Just another topic for people to fight about....Not why I'm posting it, but I'm sure it will happen.

As a fairly staunch Libertarian, the state of the media in this country is pathetic. I watch Fox News all day in my home office, but I read CNN and will even throw on MSNBC as well because I like to hear what each side is saying. It's interesting to me...Doesn't make me mad, I keep my thoughts to myself unless someone wants to discuss which I'm more than capable of doing without raising my voice. Obviously, the lives of people and state of the economy needs to be top of mind, but for God sakes, I hope sometime in the near future people rise up and demand fair and balanced media coverage. By demand, I mean tune out of this **** (and I'm including all 3 networks above, including the one I'm most guilty of watching), and run them out of business. Will it ever happen? Of course not, but my lord journalism is totally inept anymore. Is it that far off from state-run Communist party media? Maybe, I dunno.

Just my rant for the week :) Hope everyone is staying safe and wishing all the small-business owners out there the best as well! I personally love to cook every night, but have made a point to order take out 3-4 nights a week to try and support the restaurants around me and hope others who can do the same.


It is and there is almost nothing truly reliable from either side that doesn't include its own spin. Good place to start would be revisiting that "I watch #### news all day" - doesn't matter which one, any of them, turn them off. If we keep feeding the beasts, do we think they'll change?
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby Humperdink on Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:34 pm

interstorm wrote:
Cow_Master66 wrote:Just another topic for people to fight about....Not why I'm posting it, but I'm sure it will happen.

As a fairly staunch Libertarian, the state of the media in this country is pathetic. I watch Fox News all day in my home office, but I read CNN and will even throw on MSNBC as well because I like to hear what each side is saying. It's interesting to me...Doesn't make me mad, I keep my thoughts to myself unless someone wants to discuss which I'm more than capable of doing without raising my voice. Obviously, the lives of people and state of the economy needs to be top of mind, but for God sakes, I hope sometime in the near future people rise up and demand fair and balanced media coverage. By demand, I mean tune out of this **** (and I'm including all 3 networks above, including the one I'm most guilty of watching), and run them out of business. Will it ever happen? Of course not, but my lord journalism is totally inept anymore. Is it that far off from state-run Communist party media? Maybe, I dunno.

Just my rant for the week :) Hope everyone is staying safe and wishing all the small-business owners out there the best as well! I personally love to cook every night, but have made a point to order take out 3-4 nights a week to try and support the restaurants around me and hope others who can do the same.


It is and there is almost nothing truly reliable from either side that doesn't include its own spin. Good place to start would be revisiting that "I watch #### news all day" - doesn't matter which one, any of them, turn them off. If we keep feeding the beasts, do we think they'll change?


I watch them all and then use my experience and intellect to determine which have the most credibility. It is not difficult.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby Puck-Lurker on Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:45 pm

Humperdink wrote:
Puck-Lurker wrote:
Humperdink wrote:
Puck-Lurker wrote:
Jim wrote:Someone just died.


Someone just died.


Someone just died.


Someone just died.


Someone just died.

Jim's posts summarised for effect.

In all seriousness, fatalities are a reality of day to day life. What I'm seeing around Europe is one thing. Can't stop this thing without the right medicines, which we don't have. Social distancing and hygiene measures will do only so much -- because of incubation periods -- and because a lot of professions (mine included) are permitted to continue working. A lot of folks will contract it.

All we've got that'll work on a population is to spread the queue at the intensive care out over a longer period, so health care has capacity. Hopefully as a by-effect, we'll end up more and more immune -- as a population.

To anyone anywhere: follow the government's instructions to a T. Smarter people than you thought about it a lot and came up with their best.


While I fully agree with most, if not all, of the safety precautions the states/feds have suggested, my faith in those "smarter people than you" has waned. $23+ trillion in debt will do that.

Our first Covid-19 case in our rural county surfaced this morning.

It's not the economy.


Elaborate please, you have lost me.

Covid-19 causes problems to your health, not your budget. Measures to counter-act the spreading of it can hurt your budget. That's all I meant to say. It's a virus, not a failed banking scheme.


Governments trying to organise their countries into a coordinated response to limit its spread can be actively hindered by people that don't buy in to the measures decided on. Social distancing, washing hands, not traveling given the opportunity, not gathering in groups, working from home if possible etc all the way down to lockdown scenarios. Not optional if your country is using any or all of these, need to buy in as a group.



It's also a pandemic, not a panic. :thumb:
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby LimerickPensFan on Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:57 pm

I'm hoping this link works. Some talk on the numbers being presented.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1242983194355355648
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby interstorm on Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:11 pm

LimerickPensFan wrote:I'm hoping this link works. Some talk on the numbers being presented.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1242983194355355648



I'm actually watching very little coverage on this. I'm getting all my numbers from this site:

https://coronavirus.1point3acres.com/#stat

As for other facts, what to do's and all - I work for a hospital and get my information from clinical people there. I do balance that against the tidbits I pick up reading about specific cases from those involved (NYC individuals and first hand accounts for instance).
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby Jim on Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:24 pm

Steve wrote:I wasn't referencing the billions, I got what you were doing there. I don't think I've said anything wrong; this isn't like the flu - i would be thrilled to end up being wrong though. I hope you and everyone else on this board stays safe.


theblackarts did, I just merged the replies.

It's similar to a horrible, horrible flu, it's in the same etiology as various influenza strains If the flu is like getting hit by a cyclist... this is like getting hit by a bus. For consideration, it's not a virus of say a HIV type.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby Jim on Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:26 pm

theblackarts wrote:...yeah I latched onto that because that's what you said? Why would I reply to something from several posts ago versus responding to what you just said? Jim, go home, log off for a bit. Rest up. And I'm still waiting for you to answer my questions from two posts ago, as I'm curious as to how you'll justify what you said.


The only questions that I see that you asked were if I was drunk and how many people that I though were in the world. I already address the people count part, and no, I was not drunk. Was their another answer that you are waiting on?

Oh, was it the "Could you give me a few reasons why hundreds of thousands of people dying unnecessarily is the same as dying from what is commonly understood to be a common cause of death?" What are hundreds of thousands of people dying unnecessarily from? Please say COVID-19.

I do admit that my original post was supposed to say "if you go look at non-COVID-19 flu related death rates over the last 5 or 10 years... I think your heads will explode." I forgot to type "flu" apparently.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby Jim on Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:36 pm

LimerickPensFan wrote:Very preliminary impact of COVID-19 on the world economy.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-covid-19-impacting-hiring-around-world-karin-kimbrough/


Wait... are they suggesting that during the few weeks where people are working from home and brick fronts have to close and people are supposed to stay home... interviews and hiring is down? WHHAAAATTT???
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby Jim on Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:43 pm

LimerickPensFan wrote:I'm hoping this link works. Some talk on the numbers being presented.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1242983194355355648


That's why I keep using the terms "misinformation" and "fear mongering"
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby Jim on Thu Mar 26, 2020 2:45 pm

Humperdink wrote:I watch them all and then use my experience and intellect to determine which have the most credibility. It is not difficult.


You, yes.

But there are people out there drinking bleach because they heard that bleach kills virus. Too many people believe (only) the spin.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby theblackarts on Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:43 pm

LimerickPensFan wrote:
theblackarts wrote:
Jim wrote:Not including those with COVID-19...

Someone just died.


Someone just died.


Someone just died.


Someone just died.


Someone just died.

The way some people are reacting to the deaths related to COVID-19 it seems like you have possibly NEVER contemplated death before. If you go look at non-COVID-19 related death rates over the last 5 or 10 years... I think your heads will explode.

By the way... Someone just died.


Could you give me a few reasons why hundreds of thousands of people dying unnecessarily is the same as dying from what is commonly understood to be a common cause of death? Can you also give me a few reasons as to why it should be readily accepted when there are more obviously logical options? You're flabbergasted by people being concerned for others lives... that's not a good look.

Unnecessarily? Death is necessary on this planet. The only question is when, not if. Most of the people dying from this will be older people that have finished the productive parts of their lives and probably would have died in the next five years or so anyway. Again, tragic to those close to them, but part of the necessary cycle (why do I hear Elton John singing). So more people will die this year, which will mean fewer people dying in the coming years. My dad died last fall. He had a stroke about fifteen years ago and had been wheelchair-bound ever since. There are times that I wish that he had died when he had the stroke, and I certainly wish he hadn't had to go through the last five years where he rarely got out of bed. That way I wouldn't have memories of my once-powerful and incredibly capable father who could no longer tie his own shoe or wipe his own butt. But that's what we do. We extend life as long as we can to temporarily ward off what will be tragedy whenever it happens.

As I said before. People die. To those that are close to those people, it is a tragedy. To others, we can have sympathy or even short-term empathy, but we don't really feel the loss. Hundreds of thousands of people living on the streets will affect us all, though. A crushed world-wide economy will affect us all. There has to be some balance, agreed, but the greater tragedy will come if we don't take care of our businesses.


Just want to confirm that you're saying hundreds of thousands of people dying from incompetence should be understood as 100% acceptable, and even encouraged, because they were going to die anyway at some point. Also want to confirm that we shouldn't show empathy or concern for the lives of anyone who is not directly related to ourselves. Just want to nail down your take on this.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby theblackarts on Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:57 pm

LimerickPensFan wrote:
theblackarts wrote:
LimerickPensFan wrote:It isn't heartlessness. I recognize that a person dying is a tragedy to those close to them. I feel for those people.

Honestly, I believe it was way too early for a stimulus.

My comparison to WWII has to do with leadership. A country that is having economic difficulties is ripe for selecting a leader like Hitler.

Know any small business owners? I know one woman that is already expressing grave concern about her business. Another two or three weeks? Small businesses do not have a great margin for error. And when the job situation is tight - which it will be after this finally ends - it will be extremely difficult to open any new businesses because the customer base just doesn't have any money. Where you fear peple dying - I fear a severe worldwide economic downturn - the likes of which we haven't seen in our lifetimes (unless you're in your 90s or older).

Our government has actually responded well to this crisis. Don't listen to news sources looking for anything they can to attack the president. The government reacted quickly, and with the exception of the mistakes with the creation of the testing kit, generally did the right thing. Trump made some mistatement (when doesn't he?), but overall, the government has continually done the right things. Understand, we had a month of people coming here from Wuhan before the Chinese actually mentioned the fact that this was going on. The US government was working on this before it even had a name.


Wow. You should google "empathy" and then maybe write down a list of what makes life worth living. I don't know what else to say about that.

Not only do I know several small business owners, but I am a small business owner. Lucky for me, I can continue to work during this time. For those that cannot, they trust that the government will provide relief. I highly doubt that the government will idly watch US small businesses tank. They know how the economy works. If Trump wants to be re-elected, he'll spearhead relief for small business at first opportunity. If he doesn't, you can bet that Biden will.

I don't know enough about the timeline to make a determination, but the manner of the government's reaction is wholly unacceptable, reeks of everything that Trump brings to the table, and will needlessly cost lives. From firing the pandemic response team without replacing them, to rejecting the WHO tests for our own profits, to senators selling stock, to trying to outright buy the german vaccine co, to the WH briefing side-shows, to the terms of the republicans proposed stimulus package, to awarding Gilead the remdesivir contract... Even if 75% of these things didn't happen, we'd still be talking about inadequacy of the highest level.

The government can only do so much.

And I can see you are in full-blown TDS.

First off, Trump did not reject the WHO test kits. The WHO did not even offer them because the US never takes those kits in a situation like this. The CDC develops their own kits and lets the WHO provide those kits to countries that do not have the capability to develop their own. It had nothing to do with profits.

Senators selling stocks was bad. I don't know about the others, but Feinstein did not sell her own stocks. She has her stocks managed by a blind trust.

The Democrat's proposed package was even funnier. Everything from money for the Kennedy Center to aircraft emissions. The Republican package was very large-business-friendly, yes, but guess who employs a large number of people? I personally wish it had focused more on small business, but it was certainly better than the Democrats pushing all of their agendas that had nothing to do with this.

Honestly, I don't see how you can even read any of the news you apparently read or listen to any of the Democrats. You know, the same people that were calling Trump racist and xenophobic for restricting travel from China in early February and then were complaining that he didn't act quickly enough by late February? Gee, sounds to me like they're (and you're) more interested in playing politics than actually dealing with a difficult situation that has more nuances than just "save as many lives as possible". We don't care how many people have to starve afterward - as long as they don't die from this virus!

My "empathy" extends beyond the end of this virus.


Alrighty here. Just for the sake of argument I'll cede all of my points but two:

1) You're saying you preferred the republicans proposition that gave trump the ability to bail himself out and not reveal to whom the money was given? You'd prefer that over $ for performing arts centers? Just checking.

2) Trump is objectively a racist and a xenophobe, and if he's not, he uses language that encourages racism and xenophobia. I personally don't recall anyone calling him either of those things after his China travel ban. I do recall him dragging his feet and spewing false information literally every step of the way. We're talking about someone who is qualified in no way for his job, and filled his cabinet with his friends and campaign donors. He removes those that disagree with him. Just going to go ahead and assume that literally any other politician would have a more competent government, capable of mitigating this pandemic. Surely you'll agree here.

You're aware that lifting the lockdown too early will prolong the pandemic and delay economic recovery right?
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby theblackarts on Thu Mar 26, 2020 4:59 pm

Humperdink wrote:
Cow_Master66 wrote:Just another topic for people to fight about....Not why I'm posting it, but I'm sure it will happen.

As a fairly staunch Libertarian, the state of the media in this country is pathetic. I watch Fox News all day in my home office, but I read CNN and will even throw on MSNBC as well because I like to hear what each side is saying. It's interesting to me...Doesn't make me mad, I keep my thoughts to myself unless someone wants to discuss which I'm more than capable of doing without raising my voice. Obviously, the lives of people and state of the economy needs to be top of mind, but for God sakes, I hope sometime in the near future people rise up and demand fair and balanced media coverage. By demand, I mean tune out of this **** (and I'm including all 3 networks above, including the one I'm most guilty of watching), and run them out of business. Will it ever happen? Of course not, but my lord journalism is totally inept anymore. Is it that far off from state-run Communist party media? Maybe, I dunno.

Just my rant for the week :) Hope everyone is staying safe and wishing all the small-business owners out there the best as well! I personally love to cook every night, but have made a point to order take out 3-4 nights a week to try and support the restaurants around me and hope others who can do the same.


I agree. :thumb:

Interesting that select NPR stations are not showing President Trump's new conferences.


Do you want to take a guess as to why? Doesn't it seem odd that after Trump speaks, Fauci and the surgeon general have to rush to clarify or negate what he said? The updates have taken the place of his rallies, but this time lives are at stake.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby theblackarts on Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:05 pm

Jim wrote:
theblackarts wrote:...yeah I latched onto that because that's what you said? Why would I reply to something from several posts ago versus responding to what you just said? Jim, go home, log off for a bit. Rest up. And I'm still waiting for you to answer my questions from two posts ago, as I'm curious as to how you'll justify what you said.


The only questions that I see that you asked were if I was drunk and how many people that I though were in the world. I already address the people count part, and no, I was not drunk. Was their another answer that you are waiting on?

Oh, was it the "Could you give me a few reasons why hundreds of thousands of people dying unnecessarily is the same as dying from what is commonly understood to be a common cause of death?" What are hundreds of thousands of people dying unnecessarily from? Please say COVID-19.

I do admit that my original post was supposed to say "if you go look at non-COVID-19 flu related death rates over the last 5 or 10 years... I think your heads will explode." I forgot to type "flu" apparently.


I'm harping on your "someone just died" post. Still waiting on answers to my questions. Dodge them all you want. I really want to see you justify what you said.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby Daniel on Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:07 pm

LimerickPensFan wrote:
Daniel wrote:Small business administration declared an emergency in late January and started giving low interest loans to small businesses.


Hopefully, that will be enough, but I have my doubts.


I think the problem could be twofold. The media is too busy with regurgitated propaganda to give anything of substance like the SBA as an option, so do small business owners know about it? Second, is there enough money to go around? The money can be fixed with the stimulus, hopefully the information is going out as well
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby LimerickPensFan on Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:11 pm

theblackarts wrote:
LimerickPensFan wrote:
theblackarts wrote:
Jim wrote:Not including those with COVID-19...

Someone just died.


Someone just died.


Someone just died.


Someone just died.


Someone just died.

The way some people are reacting to the deaths related to COVID-19 it seems like you have possibly NEVER contemplated death before. If you go look at non-COVID-19 related death rates over the last 5 or 10 years... I think your heads will explode.

By the way... Someone just died.


Could you give me a few reasons why hundreds of thousands of people dying unnecessarily is the same as dying from what is commonly understood to be a common cause of death? Can you also give me a few reasons as to why it should be readily accepted when there are more obviously logical options? You're flabbergasted by people being concerned for others lives... that's not a good look.

Unnecessarily? Death is necessary on this planet. The only question is when, not if. Most of the people dying from this will be older people that have finished the productive parts of their lives and probably would have died in the next five years or so anyway. Again, tragic to those close to them, but part of the necessary cycle (why do I hear Elton John singing). So more people will die this year, which will mean fewer people dying in the coming years. My dad died last fall. He had a stroke about fifteen years ago and had been wheelchair-bound ever since. There are times that I wish that he had died when he had the stroke, and I certainly wish he hadn't had to go through the last five years where he rarely got out of bed. That way I wouldn't have memories of my once-powerful and incredibly capable father who could no longer tie his own shoe or wipe his own butt. But that's what we do. We extend life as long as we can to temporarily ward off what will be tragedy whenever it happens.

As I said before. People die. To those that are close to those people, it is a tragedy. To others, we can have sympathy or even short-term empathy, but we don't really feel the loss. Hundreds of thousands of people living on the streets will affect us all, though. A crushed world-wide economy will affect us all. There has to be some balance, agreed, but the greater tragedy will come if we don't take care of our businesses.


Just want to confirm that you're saying hundreds of thousands of people dying from incompetence should be understood as 100% acceptable, and even encouraged, because they were going to die anyway at some point. Also want to confirm that we shouldn't show empathy or concern for the lives of anyone who is not directly related to ourselves. Just want to nail down your take on this.

I'm saying there was no incompetence. Quit listening to biased reporting and the Democrats. A mistake was made in the creation of the kits. That is the only issue that happened here that has caused any problems. You want the key problem - it was that infected people were coming here for a month before the Chinese even told us there was an infection. They hid it from the world to save face. But heaven forbid we include their name in the virus. That would be racist, wouldn't it? With the exception of the mistake on the kit, the CDC acted as it should have. The federal government actually acted significantly more quickly than it has in the past in these situations. The Democrats and a biased media have chosen to use this tragedy to try to make political points. And you just suck it up and spew it back. I'll bet you even think Trump called the virus a hoax, don't you?

We should show empathy. We should also show empathy and concern for people that will be having significant financial problems after this is over. We should do as much as we can for the first while ensuring that we are limiting the second. imo, the primary concern should be the second, though.

Right now, many are ignoring the aftermath of this with concern for the current. Remember, the average age of those in Italy that have died from this is 81. Think about that. That's far higher than the average life span. So maybe Grandpa dies five years earlier than he would have without this virus. You've just moved the tragedy up five years. It was coming anyway. That's what I mean by it will lower the death rate in coming years.

Now, let me do the same thing to you that you've tried to do to me. In your words, I guess it's alright to have people starving to death six months from now. That's what you're saying, isn't it?
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby Humperdink on Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:17 pm

"Neil Ferguson of Imperial College London is an epidemiologist. If his name and college sound familiar, it’s probably because their well publicized forecast regarding the Wuhan coronavirus inspired lockdown measures in the U.S. and Great Britain.

"Ferguson warned that an uncontrolled spread of the virus could cause as many as 510,000 deaths in Britain and up to 2.2 million deaths in the U.S. According to the New York Times, “it wasn’t so much the numbers themselves [that caused policymakers to act]. . .as who reported them: Imperial College London.”

"Now, Ferguson and the Imperial College London have new numbers for Great Britain. According to this report, Ferguson says the number of deaths in Britain is unlikely to exceed 20,000 and could be much lower."

https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/ ... wnward.php

Read the whole thing.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby LimerickPensFan on Thu Mar 26, 2020 5:21 pm

theblackarts wrote:
LimerickPensFan wrote:
theblackarts wrote:
LimerickPensFan wrote:It isn't heartlessness. I recognize that a person dying is a tragedy to those close to them. I feel for those people.

Honestly, I believe it was way too early for a stimulus.

My comparison to WWII has to do with leadership. A country that is having economic difficulties is ripe for selecting a leader like Hitler.

Know any small business owners? I know one woman that is already expressing grave concern about her business. Another two or three weeks? Small businesses do not have a great margin for error. And when the job situation is tight - which it will be after this finally ends - it will be extremely difficult to open any new businesses because the customer base just doesn't have any money. Where you fear peple dying - I fear a severe worldwide economic downturn - the likes of which we haven't seen in our lifetimes (unless you're in your 90s or older).

Our government has actually responded well to this crisis. Don't listen to news sources looking for anything they can to attack the president. The government reacted quickly, and with the exception of the mistakes with the creation of the testing kit, generally did the right thing. Trump made some mistatement (when doesn't he?), but overall, the government has continually done the right things. Understand, we had a month of people coming here from Wuhan before the Chinese actually mentioned the fact that this was going on. The US government was working on this before it even had a name.


Wow. You should google "empathy" and then maybe write down a list of what makes life worth living. I don't know what else to say about that.

Not only do I know several small business owners, but I am a small business owner. Lucky for me, I can continue to work during this time. For those that cannot, they trust that the government will provide relief. I highly doubt that the government will idly watch US small businesses tank. They know how the economy works. If Trump wants to be re-elected, he'll spearhead relief for small business at first opportunity. If he doesn't, you can bet that Biden will.

I don't know enough about the timeline to make a determination, but the manner of the government's reaction is wholly unacceptable, reeks of everything that Trump brings to the table, and will needlessly cost lives. From firing the pandemic response team without replacing them, to rejecting the WHO tests for our own profits, to senators selling stock, to trying to outright buy the german vaccine co, to the WH briefing side-shows, to the terms of the republicans proposed stimulus package, to awarding Gilead the remdesivir contract... Even if 75% of these things didn't happen, we'd still be talking about inadequacy of the highest level.

The government can only do so much.

And I can see you are in full-blown TDS.

First off, Trump did not reject the WHO test kits. The WHO did not even offer them because the US never takes those kits in a situation like this. The CDC develops their own kits and lets the WHO provide those kits to countries that do not have the capability to develop their own. It had nothing to do with profits.

Senators selling stocks was bad. I don't know about the others, but Feinstein did not sell her own stocks. She has her stocks managed by a blind trust.

The Democrat's proposed package was even funnier. Everything from money for the Kennedy Center to aircraft emissions. The Republican package was very large-business-friendly, yes, but guess who employs a large number of people? I personally wish it had focused more on small business, but it was certainly better than the Democrats pushing all of their agendas that had nothing to do with this.

Honestly, I don't see how you can even read any of the news you apparently read or listen to any of the Democrats. You know, the same people that were calling Trump racist and xenophobic for restricting travel from China in early February and then were complaining that he didn't act quickly enough by late February? Gee, sounds to me like they're (and you're) more interested in playing politics than actually dealing with a difficult situation that has more nuances than just "save as many lives as possible". We don't care how many people have to starve afterward - as long as they don't die from this virus!

My "empathy" extends beyond the end of this virus.


Alrighty here. Just for the sake of argument I'll cede all of my points but two:

1) You're saying you preferred the republicans proposition that gave trump the ability to bail himself out and not reveal to whom the money was given? You'd prefer that over $ for performing arts centers? Just checking.

2) Trump is objectively a racist and a xenophobe, and if he's not, he uses language that encourages racism and xenophobia. I personally don't recall anyone calling him either of those things after his China travel ban. I do recall him dragging his feet and spewing false information literally every step of the way. We're talking about someone who is qualified in no way for his job, and filled his cabinet with his friends and campaign donors. He removes those that disagree with him. Just going to go ahead and assume that literally any other politician would have a more competent government, capable of mitigating this pandemic. Surely you'll agree here.

You're aware that lifting the lockdown too early will prolong the pandemic and delay economic recovery right?

1) Compared to the proposition that focused more on social change than on actually helping people, yes.
2) I disagree. He is not racist nore xenophobic. I find it funny that you would accuse a man that has married two immigrants out of three wives of xenophobia. I'm still waiting for someone to tell me anything significant he's done to show he was racist. Anything anyone has tried has been a joke. Just like this time when he was accused for enacting a travel ban with China. Chuck Schumer posted a tweet on February 5 stating it was a continuation of his war against immigratns - for enacting the ban. He of course deleted that when the Democrats decided that they wanted to go after him for not acting quickly enough.

Image

Just google Trump Xenophobia and you'll see plenty of examples through the month of March. Here's the first of over 28 million results:
https://www.thenation.com/article/politics/republican-xenophobia-coronavirus-pandemic/

Lifting it too early will also allow businesses to at least get started making money again. Every day they can't make money (and still have to pay rent and taxes on their property), they are losing money. Most small business don't have the money to lose, and some large business don't, either.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby Jim on Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:18 pm

theblackarts wrote:
LimerickPensFan wrote:
theblackarts wrote:
Jim wrote:Not including those with COVID-19...

Someone just died.


Someone just died.


Someone just died.


Someone just died.


Someone just died.

The way some people are reacting to the deaths related to COVID-19 it seems like you have possibly NEVER contemplated death before. If you go look at non-COVID-19 related death rates over the last 5 or 10 years... I think your heads will explode.

By the way... Someone just died.


Could you give me a few reasons why hundreds of thousands of people dying unnecessarily is the same as dying from what is commonly understood to be a common cause of death? Can you also give me a few reasons as to why it should be readily accepted when there are more obviously logical options? You're flabbergasted by people being concerned for others lives... that's not a good look.

Unnecessarily? Death is necessary on this planet. The only question is when, not if. Most of the people dying from this will be older people that have finished the productive parts of their lives and probably would have died in the next five years or so anyway. Again, tragic to those close to them, but part of the necessary cycle (why do I hear Elton John singing). So more people will die this year, which will mean fewer people dying in the coming years. My dad died last fall. He had a stroke about fifteen years ago and had been wheelchair-bound ever since. There are times that I wish that he had died when he had the stroke, and I certainly wish he hadn't had to go through the last five years where he rarely got out of bed. That way I wouldn't have memories of my once-powerful and incredibly capable father who could no longer tie his own shoe or wipe his own butt. But that's what we do. We extend life as long as we can to temporarily ward off what will be tragedy whenever it happens.

As I said before. People die. To those that are close to those people, it is a tragedy. To others, we can have sympathy or even short-term empathy, but we don't really feel the loss. Hundreds of thousands of people living on the streets will affect us all, though. A crushed world-wide economy will affect us all. There has to be some balance, agreed, but the greater tragedy will come if we don't take care of our businesses.


Just want to confirm that you're saying hundreds of thousands of people dying from incompetence should be understood as 100% acceptable, and even encouraged, because they were going to die anyway at some point. Also want to confirm that we shouldn't show empathy or concern for the lives of anyone who is not directly related to ourselves. Just want to nail down your take on this.


Here is my take... give me the half button an I will push it before you even set it in the table.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby Humperdink on Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:47 pm

From above: "Just want to confirm that you're saying hundreds of thousands of people dying from incompetence should be understood as 100% acceptable, and even encouraged, because they were going to die anyway at some point. Also want to confirm that we shouldn't show empathy or concern for the lives of anyone who is not directly related to ourselves."

For a minute there I thought you were going to reprise the Democrat ad showing Paul Ryan (R- Evil) pushing Granny off the cliff.
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Re: COVID-19 and the Penguins

Postby theblackarts on Thu Mar 26, 2020 7:03 pm

LimerickPensFan wrote:
theblackarts wrote:
LimerickPensFan wrote:
theblackarts wrote:
Jim wrote:Not including those with COVID-19...

Someone just died.


Someone just died.


Someone just died.


Someone just died.


Someone just died.

The way some people are reacting to the deaths related to COVID-19 it seems like you have possibly NEVER contemplated death before. If you go look at non-COVID-19 related death rates over the last 5 or 10 years... I think your heads will explode.

By the way... Someone just died.


Could you give me a few reasons why hundreds of thousands of people dying unnecessarily is the same as dying from what is commonly understood to be a common cause of death? Can you also give me a few reasons as to why it should be readily accepted when there are more obviously logical options? You're flabbergasted by people being concerned for others lives... that's not a good look.

Unnecessarily? Death is necessary on this planet. The only question is when, not if. Most of the people dying from this will be older people that have finished the productive parts of their lives and probably would have died in the next five years or so anyway. Again, tragic to those close to them, but part of the necessary cycle (why do I hear Elton John singing). So more people will die this year, which will mean fewer people dying in the coming years. My dad died last fall. He had a stroke about fifteen years ago and had been wheelchair-bound ever since. There are times that I wish that he had died when he had the stroke, and I certainly wish he hadn't had to go through the last five years where he rarely got out of bed. That way I wouldn't have memories of my once-powerful and incredibly capable father who could no longer tie his own shoe or wipe his own butt. But that's what we do. We extend life as long as we can to temporarily ward off what will be tragedy whenever it happens.

As I said before. People die. To those that are close to those people, it is a tragedy. To others, we can have sympathy or even short-term empathy, but we don't really feel the loss. Hundreds of thousands of people living on the streets will affect us all, though. A crushed world-wide economy will affect us all. There has to be some balance, agreed, but the greater tragedy will come if we don't take care of our businesses.


Just want to confirm that you're saying hundreds of thousands of people dying from incompetence should be understood as 100% acceptable, and even encouraged, because they were going to die anyway at some point. Also want to confirm that we shouldn't show empathy or concern for the lives of anyone who is not directly related to ourselves. Just want to nail down your take on this.

I'm saying there was no incompetence. Quit listening to biased reporting and the Democrats. A mistake was made in the creation of the kits. That is the only issue that happened here that has caused any problems. You want the key problem - it was that infected people were coming here for a month before the Chinese even told us there was an infection. They hid it from the world to save face. But heaven forbid we include their name in the virus. That would be racist, wouldn't it? With the exception of the mistake on the kit, the CDC acted as it should have. The federal government actually acted significantly more quickly than it has in the past in these situations. The Democrats and a biased media have chosen to use this tragedy to try to make political points. And you just suck it up and spew it back. I'll bet you even think Trump called the virus a hoax, don't you?

We should show empathy. We should also show empathy and concern for people that will be having significant financial problems after this is over. We should do as much as we can for the first while ensuring that we are limiting the second. imo, the primary concern should be the second, though.

Right now, many are ignoring the aftermath of this with concern for the current. Remember, the average age of those in Italy that have died from this is 81. Think about that. That's far higher than the average life span. So maybe Grandpa dies five years earlier than he would have without this virus. You've just moved the tragedy up five years. It was coming anyway. That's what I mean by it will lower the death rate in coming years.

Now, let me do the same thing to you that you've tried to do to me. In your words, I guess it's alright to have people starving to death six months from now. That's what you're saying, isn't it?


C'mon dude... I didn't realize COVID-19 (or the five other also quasi-scientific and unique to it's attributes) could possess an ethnicity! Thanks for that tidbit. Why do you think trump says "Chinese Virus?" It's definitely not to stir up his detractors, stir up xenophobia among his base, tangentially promote racist acts toward Chinese-Americans etc. etc. Right? Right? Why does trump cross out "COVID-19" in his speeches and replace it with "Chinese Virus?" I'm sure good intentions only. Wouldn't expect anything else from that guy. Just wondering, have you ever traveled to H1N1, SARS, the flu, Rabies, Rotavirus, or maybe the beaches along the coast of HIV... I hear they're beautiful this time of year!

According to fired members of the pandemic response team that obama left trump, they left a playbook, an expert NSC team, built a transition exercise to ensure smooth turnover, and built new programs for them to follow, all of which Trump ignored/closed/undermined, etc etc. Trump has put himself first throughout this entire process, down to the stimulus relief package. That's just objective reality. I don't need the news to show me that, I can just listen to the words that he says for myself. I can't even image a reality where I listen to that guy say anything about any form of governance and don't hear incompetence. I don't know how you can't honestly.

So far as the media being biased, I'll just reiterate a previous point. Even if 90% of the news headlines were fake, as Trump loves to claim, you'd still be talking about easily the most corrupt, most incompetent administration in the history of the US. I mean, they're at a point where they're not even trying to hide it. Even to the most skeptical, the amount of smoke surely suggest a fire. It's also bizarre to me that "the media" would get together and agree to trash the drama-generator of the century, who's made them more money than they could possibly imagine, in favor of someone more thrilling, like Joe Biden or Mike Pence. Why would the media want to sway the public into ousting trump?

Your logic is correct in terms of prioritizing the survival of a population, but you're also hyperbolizing the fallout and blindly trusting Cheeto instead of, I don't know, infectious disease scientists? You can't just say, let's reopen the country on date x if the reported cases don't suggest that's a good idea. Let's say we do, and the pandemic lingers for 4-6 more months. No stimulus package is going to revive an economy where people are afraid to go out, workers are afraid to work, food supply chain workers don't have protective equipment, etc. etc. If you want a limping economy, by all means listen to the guy who is thinking of literally no one but himself in determining when to propose a return to normalcy.

I'll happily answer your question: I don't see that scenario as a possibility if we follow the advice of people who have dedicated their lives and livelihoods to researching and understanding infectious diseases.

And just so you know, I don't identify as a democrat, though most of my views lean heavily left. The democratic establishment needs to go asap, money needs to be removed from politics, and we need a functional government for people. I'm waiting to hear a conservative politician suggest as much.
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