Official GDT: Pens @ Nucks 12/4/21

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Re: Official GDT: Pens @ Nucks 12/4/21

Postby offsides on Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:42 pm

Outshot them 34-12. We got this. Think I'll watch third tomorrow morning.
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Re: Official GDT: Pens @ Nucks 12/4/21

Postby stonewizard51 on Sat Dec 04, 2021 11:43 pm

FLPensFan wrote:Yay Jake....but, did you really need to continually force everything to Guentzel at this point to try and get him a hat trick, when ANYONE scoring a goal there was the bigger need.

Exactly
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Re: Official GDT: Pens @ Nucks 12/4/21

Postby DelPen on Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:01 am

Dumoulin again let’s the pass through while not pressuring the shooter forcing Jarry to make a great save. This is happening every single game with this guy.
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Re: Official GDT: Pens @ Nucks 12/4/21

Postby murphydump55 on Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:07 am

Okay so fire the coaching staff and trade Jake right?
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Re: Official GDT: Pens @ Nucks 12/4/21

Postby Maestro on Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:11 am

murphydump55 wrote:Okay so fire the coaching staff and trade Jake right?


Living your life moment to moment.
Very zen of you.
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Re: Official GDT: Pens @ Nucks 12/4/21

Postby murphydump55 on Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:14 am

Maestro wrote:
murphydump55 wrote:Okay so fire the coaching staff and trade Jake right?


Living your life moment to moment.
Very zen of you.


I never once advocated trading Jake. Not even after he didn’t score in the playoffs. Many fans wanted him gone and still did this year.

I’ve already posted that there’s not much out there that I’d replace Sullivan with. I didn’t freak out during the little skid like many did. I don’t like some of his decisions but right now I don’t see much else out there. I’ve wanted him gone before but I’m not sure a coaching change does much to this roster.
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Re: Official GDT: Pens @ Nucks 12/4/21

Postby Maestro on Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:22 am

So for you the window remains open, they should be deadline buyers and if they come in 4th in div will make it to conf finals at the minimum?
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Re: Official GDT: Pens @ Nucks 12/4/21

Postby stonewizard51 on Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:22 am

SID !!!

Nice pass from Tanger too
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Re: Official GDT: Pens @ Nucks 12/4/21

Postby murphydump55 on Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:28 am

Maestro wrote:So for you the window remains open, they should be deadline buyers and if they come in 4th in div will make it to conf finals at the minimum?


If you’re talking to me, no. But people wanted Jake traded after his struggles in the recent playoffs. He’s not a guy I’m trading. There’s plenty more I’d move before him.
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Re: Official GDT: Pens @ Nucks 12/4/21

Postby stonewizard51 on Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:36 am

Good Win. They needed those 2 pts.
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Re: Official GDT: Pens @ Nucks 12/4/21

Postby HellsKitchen7 on Sun Dec 05, 2021 12:55 am

murphydump55 wrote:
Maestro wrote:So for you the window remains open, they should be deadline buyers and if they come in 4th in div will make it to conf finals at the minimum?


If you’re talking to me, no. But people wanted Jake traded after his struggles in the recent playoffs. He’s not a guy I’m trading. There’s plenty more I’d move before him.


People love players when they're hot and want to trade them when they're cold. Nothing newsworthy about that.
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Re: Official GDT: Pens @ Nucks 12/4/21

Postby FLPensFan on Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:19 am

HellsKitchen7 wrote:
murphydump55 wrote:
Maestro wrote:So for you the window remains open, they should be deadline buyers and if they come in 4th in div will make it to conf finals at the minimum?


If you’re talking to me, no. But people wanted Jake traded after his struggles in the recent playoffs. He’s not a guy I’m trading. There’s plenty more I’d move before him.


People love players when they're hot and want to trade them when they're cold. Nothing newsworthy about that.

I openly admit that I am someone that advocates trading Guentzel. I am not a "we must trade Jake at all costs" guy, but, I am very much open to it for a few reasons.

1) If you are starting any type of rebuild, Guentzel is going to be aging out of his prime in 3-5 years when this team would possibly be ready to compete.
2) If you are starting any type of rebuild, Guentzel is going to likely get the best return of anyone on the roster not named Crosby.
3) Guentzel has a high hockey IQ and an OK shot, probably slightly above average. He doesn't have a feared shot. He's not great defensively. He's gotten beaten up and neutralized last 3 years running come playoffs. He's not an elite level winger IMO, and the Penguins could really use a guy like that, that can put the game on his back and be the guy...because Sid and Geno cannot be those guys every game anymore.

If the Penguins plan to bring back Malkin and Letang and still keep playing this group, they desperately need a top flight winger...that Hossa/Kessel type guy. If the plan is to keep going with this group for another 1-3 years, I'm not trading Jake. But if there is any part of a rebuild started, then I would move Jake and take the high value assets he should net in return.
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Re: Official GDT: Pens @ Nucks 12/4/21

Postby HellsKitchen7 on Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:57 am

He's gotten beaten up and neutralized last 3 years running come playoffs.


That's the ringer for me. I don't dislike Jake, but point streaks in December don't mean much when this is the end result. You could make a similar argument with the performance of Jarry, or the PP kill to a lesser extent.

To me it comes down to whether or not you feel like this team is a legitimate contender. If so, then make some tweaks and soldier on. If not, then go big or go home.
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Re: Official GDT: Pens @ Nucks 12/4/21

Postby murphydump55 on Sun Dec 05, 2021 1:40 pm

HellsKitchen7 wrote:
He's gotten beaten up and neutralized last 3 years running come playoffs.


That's the ringer for me. I don't dislike Jake, but point streaks in December don't mean much when this is the end result. You could make a similar argument with the performance of Jarry, or the PP kill to a lesser extent.

To me it comes down to whether or not you feel like this team is a legitimate contender. If so, then make some tweaks and soldier on. If not, then go big or go home.


Nobody scored in the playoffs in 18-19, so pointing to Jake is ridiculous.
The next season he led the team in scoring in playoffs. 3 points in 4 games. Hardly awful.
Last year he wasn’t great in the playoffs. I guess I’d rather default to the larger sample size that shows great scoring ability in both regular season and playoffs. Scoring talent doesn’t grow on trees. The panic is insane.
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Re: Official GDT: Pens @ Nucks 12/4/21

Postby offsides on Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:25 pm

First thing it is great and needed to get the 2 points. I didn't watch the third period until this morning. I can't put much importance into how we looked against that crap Vancouver team. Even their home fans were loudly booing them at the end of the game for their performance. I will be much more interested in how we look against a good team such as the Caps on Friday. As for trading, firing and hiring, I'll let the guys in charge make those decisions and I will back whatever they decide.
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Re: Official GDT: Pens @ Nucks 12/4/21

Postby murphydump55 on Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:47 pm

offsides wrote:First thing it is great and needed to get the 2 points. I didn't watch the third period until this morning. I can't put much importance into how we looked against that crap Vancouver team. Even their home fans were loudly booing them at the end of the game for their performance. I will be much more interested in how we look against a good team such as the Caps on Friday. As for trading, firing and hiring, I'll let the guys in charge make those decisions and I will back whatever they decide.


You’re allowed to have an opinion and don’t have to back everything they do.
GM’s and coaches aren’t always correct, nor are fans.
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Re: Official GDT: Pens @ Nucks 12/4/21

Postby Daniel on Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:04 pm

murphydump55 wrote:
HellsKitchen7 wrote:
He's gotten beaten up and neutralized last 3 years running come playoffs.


That's the ringer for me. I don't dislike Jake, but point streaks in December don't mean much when this is the end result. You could make a similar argument with the performance of Jarry, or the PP kill to a lesser extent.

To me it comes down to whether or not you feel like this team is a legitimate contender. If so, then make some tweaks and soldier on. If not, then go big or go home.


Nobody scored in the playoffs in 18-19, so pointing to Jake is ridiculous.
The next season he led the team in scoring in playoffs. 3 points in 4 games. Hardly awful.
Last year he wasn’t great in the playoffs. I guess I’d rather default to the larger sample size that shows great scoring ability in both regular season and playoffs. Scoring talent doesn’t grow on trees. The panic is insane.


The reason I think Jake should be trade is because of necessity and return value. If you can trade others and keep Jake, I am fine with that. Out of Guentzel, Zucker, Kapanen, Rust I think 3 of them need to be gone from next years roster. If you think the team can get a better return by trading Zucker and Kapanen, fine. If you can get a big skilled winger to play 1st line RW and give Jake more room, okay fine. He’s young enough and smart enough to be the aging veteran after a rebuild and has the leadership skills. I just think trading him is the best option regardless of my personal opinion.

As for the previous few offseasons, this team has nothing but complementary wingers and aging centers. Who can drive the play? Who puts fear into the other team? When Crosby and Malkin were in their prime you could have all four of Guentzel, Zucker, Kapanen, and Rust. With an aging top 2 centers who are beyond their prime, who is stepping up?
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Re: Official GDT: Pens @ Nucks 12/4/21

Postby offsides on Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:14 pm

murphydump55 wrote:
offsides wrote:First thing it is great and needed to get the 2 points. I didn't watch the third period until this morning. I can't put much importance into how we looked against that crap Vancouver team. Even their home fans were loudly booing them at the end of the game for their performance. I will be much more interested in how we look against a good team such as the Caps on Friday. As for trading, firing and hiring, I'll let the guys in charge make those decisions and I will back whatever they decide.


You’re allowed to have an opinion and don’t have to back everything they do.
GM’s and coaches aren’t always correct, nor are fans.

Yeah, I have opinions, but my opinions are always wrong. Just ask my wife! :lol:
Also GM's and coaches opinions mean something, to the team and their jobs. They are also much closer to what is actually happening in the "room". Mine as a fan means absolutely nothing. I'm gonna watch the Pens and hockey in general no matter what they put on the ice.
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Re: Official GDT: Pens @ Nucks 12/4/21

Postby Daniel on Sun Dec 05, 2021 3:22 pm

offsides wrote:
murphydump55 wrote:
offsides wrote:First thing it is great and needed to get the 2 points. I didn't watch the third period until this morning. I can't put much importance into how we looked against that crap Vancouver team. Even their home fans were loudly booing them at the end of the game for their performance. I will be much more interested in how we look against a good team such as the Caps on Friday. As for trading, firing and hiring, I'll let the guys in charge make those decisions and I will back whatever they decide.


You’re allowed to have an opinion and don’t have to back everything they do.
GM’s and coaches aren’t always correct, nor are fans.

Yeah, I have opinions, but my opinions are always wrong. Just ask my wife! :lol:
Also GM's and coaches opinions mean something, to the team and their jobs. They are also much closer to what is actually happening in the "room". Mine as a fan means absolutely nothing. I'm gonna watch the Pens and hockey in general no matter what they put on the ice.


This is the wrong place on the internet to not share your opinion. :P

Yes the GMS and coaches have more information and yes their jobs are on the line but we’re the customers so our opinions absolutely matter. They might not see this message board that often but internet opinions have a way of getting to the business. Not that they will go after a Tarasenko, for example, but that doesn’t make our opinions any less valuable.

Look at Vancouver, do you honestly think the fans booing won’t have an effect on the team? They might not fire the coach/GM or trade players, and it won’t educate the organization that they need to do better, but it certainly reinforces the idea that the team can and is expected to play better and give better effort.

Jim will certainly mock you, we just ignore him, but your opinions are more than welcome. :fist:

(just to add, keep your wife off this page and your opinions will always be right……unless Jim doesn’t like them :lol: )
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Re: Official GDT: Pens @ Nucks 12/4/21

Postby HellsKitchen7 on Sun Dec 05, 2021 4:12 pm

murphydump55 wrote:
HellsKitchen7 wrote:
He's gotten beaten up and neutralized last 3 years running come playoffs.


That's the ringer for me. I don't dislike Jake, but point streaks in December don't mean much when this is the end result. You could make a similar argument with the performance of Jarry, or the PP kill to a lesser extent.

To me it comes down to whether or not you feel like this team is a legitimate contender. If so, then make some tweaks and soldier on. If not, then go big or go home.


Nobody scored in the playoffs in 18-19, so pointing to Jake is ridiculous.
The next season he led the team in scoring in playoffs. 3 points in 4 games. Hardly awful.
Last year he wasn’t great in the playoffs. I guess I’d rather default to the larger sample size that shows great scoring ability in both regular season and playoffs. Scoring talent doesn’t grow on trees. The panic is insane.


There's no panic over here, I'm watching the product regardless.
Let's look at it this way: Do you, or anyone else, feel that this team will be a legitimate cup contender this, or over the next 4 or so years? Personally, I don't. Not with the roster they have currently, or at least how this roster has performed over the last 2-3 years. If they feel like rebuilding is the best option, then I say sell high instead of waiting until the value of the assets has diminished. I felt the same way last year. Nobody going on a hot streak in December will change my opinion on that. At this point I feel like anything else is just delaying the inevitable. For another example of that, see the Pittsburgh Steelers.
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Re: Official GDT: Pens @ Nucks 12/4/21

Postby FLPensFan on Sun Dec 05, 2021 5:12 pm

murphydump55 wrote:
HellsKitchen7 wrote:
He's gotten beaten up and neutralized last 3 years running come playoffs.


That's the ringer for me. I don't dislike Jake, but point streaks in December don't mean much when this is the end result. You could make a similar argument with the performance of Jarry, or the PP kill to a lesser extent.

To me it comes down to whether or not you feel like this team is a legitimate contender. If so, then make some tweaks and soldier on. If not, then go big or go home.


Nobody scored in the playoffs in 18-19, so pointing to Jake is ridiculous.
The next season he led the team in scoring in playoffs. 3 points in 4 games. Hardly awful.
Last year he wasn’t great in the playoffs. I guess I’d rather default to the larger sample size that shows great scoring ability in both regular season and playoffs. Scoring talent doesn’t grow on trees. The panic is insane.

But I don't just point at Jake. I point at Sid and Geno, too. All 3 of them are their big guns, and all 3 of them have been completely shut down the past 3 years. Complaining about 1 specific year is a bit much, but, 3 years in a row. Jake is a 30-40 goal scorer every regular season. His playoff rate his first 2 years was even higher than 40 goals per 82 games. I did not expect that playoff goal scoring rate to hold...but 3 goals in 14 playoff games, for Jake, is a huge dropoff. Jake hasn't had a good playoffs since he signed his current 6M AAV deal.

It's the same for people that want to defend Malkin and point to his great regular seasons. Swell, glad he had a good season to help get us to the playoffs...but, he's paid 9.5M and needs to perform in the playoffs, too. It's one thing to have one of your big guns not going in the playoffs. If all 3 are sputtering, it's over, and the last 3 years results show that.

This team cannot afford to be a "slow starter" in the playoffs.
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Re: Official GDT: Pens @ Nucks 12/4/21

Postby KG on Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:48 pm

This game apparently was the last straw. Vancouver fired Greene. Bringing in Boudreau.
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Re: Official GDT: Pens @ Nucks 12/4/21

Postby FLPensFan on Sun Dec 05, 2021 10:14 pm

KG wrote:This game apparently was the last straw. Vancouver fired Greene. Bringing in Boudreau.

The also fired GM Benning, assistant GM, and one of the assistant coaches.
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