Is Sidney Crosby better than Peter Forsberg?

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Postby FlyerNation on Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:06 pm

Mike,
I don't think anybody at this point would be senseless enough to say Crosby isn't further along than what Forsberg was, however I also to the same point I don't think anyone would be the same to say Crosby at this point is a better player than Forsberg. Crosby has all the tools to be one of the greatest players ever, a level Forsberg can't be put in at this stage, but right now Crosby isn't on his level and I doubt you would find anyone but a few Sidney fluffers or Pens fans to say he is.

It's obvious some here only watch Forsberg when they play the Pens and even then it'd be tough to make that argument. Understandable, since his skills has impressed me since I've watched him night after night as opposed to when he was in Colorado. However too many stat worshippers just like on our board. It's all about the PS2 mentality
Last edited by FlyerNation on Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Scott on Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:15 pm

Crosby's speed means exactly squat, until he figures out how to use his speed.
He is fast, and quick, but no so quick as to go around D-men when they know he is coming.

When he learns how to use that speed and start changing the pace, then you can use that comparison with other players. (in regards to speed) Becasue otherseise, his speed doesnt

Jagr, Mario, the greats, played the game at their pace.

Last night was a good example,, Jagr took a pass from straka in the O zone.. Jagr going about 2 mph if that, then he wrists one by the goalie from about 18 feet. If that were Crosby he would have been going MAch 2 and probably try and shoot from 4 inches from the crease that the goalies are ..NOW ALWAYS READY FOR.

Where is that change of speed from Crosby? How about a drop pass from Crosby(or any other Pen for that matter) How about drawing people toward him and then dishing off?

Until that develops with him, then he is nothing more than a player with "young legs"

and certainly not worth a comparison with Forsberg or any other great player just yet.
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Never Played PS2

Postby Mad City Mike on Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:16 pm

or any other game like that, for that matter. Since I didn't see Forsberg play at 18, or as a rookie, the numbers are all one has to go on. And Crosby's numbers far exceed Forsberg's at similar junctures. Llet's not forget that Forsberg was a rookie at 21. His team was similar to the Pens of today--lots of young talent that was ahead of where the Pens are. But Forsberg did not have near the rookie season at 21 that Crosby is having at 18.
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Re: Never Played PS2

Postby FlyerNation on Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:19 pm

Mad City Mike wrote:or any other game like that, for that matter. Since I didn't see Forsberg play at 18, or as a rookie, the numbers are all one has to go on. And Crosby's numbers far exceed Forsberg's at similar junctures. Llet's not forget that Forsberg was a rookie at 21. His team was similar to the Pens of today--lots of young talent that was ahead of where the Pens are. But Forsberg did not have near the rookie season at 21 that Crosby is having at 18.
Agreed, but this isn't a thread on thier rookie seasons or thier futures. It's on who is better right now and I don't think anyone would argue except of course NIN.
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current vs similar league exp.

Postby relantel on Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:29 pm

FlyerNation wrote:Agreed, but this isn't a thread on thier rookie seasons or thier futures. It's on who is better right now and I don't think anyone would argue except of course NIN.


Ah, that was not as apparent from the question originally posed.

And who is better know is not how one would select a player via draft or trade -- the question would be akin to "who will be better over the long term".

If Crosby and Forsberg are in the same draft, the edge might have gone to Crosby, but Forsberg would have still been an excellent pick. Their games are totally different -- Forsberg strikes me more of a Kevin Stevens or Rick Tocchet (in their prime)-like power forward, where Crosby seems to be a Mario-Wayne-esque speed/skill center.

If you ask me, a Forsberg would be a great wing complement to Crosby. I'd be hard pressed to identify anyone on the Pens roster who fits the definition of "power forward" right now.
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Re: Never Played PS2

Postby Mad City Mike on Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:36 pm

FlyerNation wrote:
Mad City Mike wrote:or any other game like that, for that matter. Since I didn't see Forsberg play at 18, or as a rookie, the numbers are all one has to go on. And Crosby's numbers far exceed Forsberg's at similar junctures. Llet's not forget that Forsberg was a rookie at 21. His team was similar to the Pens of today--lots of young talent that was ahead of where the Pens are. But Forsberg did not have near the rookie season at 21 that Crosby is having at 18.
Agreed, but this isn't a thread on thier rookie seasons or thier futures. It's on who is better right now and I don't think anyone would argue except of course NIN.


On that, we agree, as I posted earlier in the thread.
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Postby FlyerNation on Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:41 pm

Actually I think Crosby and Forsberg's game are very similar and don't think Forsberg would make a good linemate because they both are puck control set up guys. Neither Forsberg nor Crosby on the whole are finishers, at least Crosby isn't yet. At this point Crosby can not do everything with the puck Forsberg can (let alone the twice the speed comment). Jagr aside no one has the control that Forsberg has, and Crosby isn't even close yet. Another out of whack statement from NIN. To go further :
Speed: Crosby

toughness: Forsberg has always been a marked man and gets hammered every night plus hasd been through serious wars. Cindy is getting there but hasn't faced playoff intensity yet.

checking: Draw (neither are big time bangers) Forsberg is exceptional at driving his men to the boards though. Forsberg can still lay an unexpected big hit once in a while.

balance: Forsberg The guy has people draped all over him and still is able to make a play. A tendecy to go down but that's because he's a flopper but not out of his lack of skate balance.

shooting: Draw: Neither shoot often enough. Forsberg does have an accurate shot when he decides to shoot but for argument sake I'll call it a draw. Sidney has a nice shot in close.

stickwork: Forsberg, Forsberg is unbelievable in tight situations and at times can work between 3 defenders to make a play. At times it looks like the puck is glued to his blade. Plus he is patient.

durability: Crosby obviously

boardwork: Forsberg. That's where he does his most damage especially down low and behind the net. He loves to work in tight.

As for power forward on the Pens, Malone since Leclair is done.
Last edited by FlyerNation on Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:00 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby Mad City Mike on Tue Jan 31, 2006 3:51 pm

FlyerNation wrote:As for power forward on the Pens, Malone since Leclair is done.


Malone has shown no ability to be a power forward. He has the size, but does not have the toughness of a LeClair, nor the hands. I had hoped LeClair might be able to show him the ropes, but Malone just has shown no evidence this year that he can contribute as a power forward. He has done okay lately at center, but that's a whole different thing.
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Postby tifosi77 on Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:33 pm

To me, there are only two things that keep Peter Forsberg from being considered the 'perfect hockey player'....1) his penchant for getting himself injured, and 2) he doesn't shoot nearly enough. Everything else about his game is what I think a good hockey player should be. Fierce two-way play, great skater, unreal vision, strong as an ox on his skates, plays with an attitude.

Crosby has the tools to be that kind of player, too. But it's going to be a while before he can be proclaimed better than Forsberg. At least, you know, a year.

;)
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Postby NIN on Tue Jan 31, 2006 9:18 pm

FlyerNation wrote:Speed: Crosby

toughness: Forsberg has always been a marked man and gets hammered every night plus hasd been through serious wars. Cindy is getting there but hasn't faced playoff intensity yet.

checking: Draw (neither are big time bangers) Forsberg is exceptional at driving his men to the boards though. Forsberg can still lay an unexpected big hit once in a while.

balance: Forsberg The guy has people draped all over him and still is able to make a play. A tendecy to go down but that's because he's a flopper but not out of his lack of skate balance.

shooting: Draw: Neither shoot often enough. Forsberg does have an accurate shot when he decides to shoot but for argument sake I'll call it a draw. Sidney has a nice shot in close.

stickwork: Forsberg, Forsberg is unbelievable in tight situations and at times can work between 3 defenders to make a play. At times it looks like the puck is glued to his blade. Plus he is patient.

durability: Crosby obviously

boardwork: Forsberg. That's where he does his most damage especially down low and behind the net. He loves to work in tight.


Speed: Crosby of course. He can reach top speed in two or three strides, tremendous acceleration, few in the league can match his speed. Let alone Forsberg who is average at best.

Toughness: Draw. I don't need to remind Flyer fans about who scored a game winner in OT minus 3 chicklets. EVERY GAME Crosby has dealt with the biggest, nastiest players in the league and they ALL make it a point to introduce themselves to Crosby. He is an 18 year old rookie and he isnt backing down from any of them. Forsberg once got destroyed by McCarty, I mean beaten like a *****. I can't imagine Crosby laying down and getting pounded on like that but time will tell. Out of respect for all the abuse Forsberg has played through, and all the nagging injuries, I will make it a tie out of respect.

Checking: Crosby. He is exceptional at it, but very very selective. He has simply DESTORYED players that are 6'5" 230lbs.+ but they never knew what hit them. Crosby understands the laws of physics and he has displayed force over matter all season. Players his size are frequently bumped several feet out of his way almost effortlessly. Forsberg plays physical, but he was never as good at checking as Crosby is already.

Balance: After some consideration, Crosby. Forsberg positions his skates as good as anybody I have ever seen play, he is right up there with Kovalev. It looks like he has dislocated his ankle at times, just so he can be properly braced for the impact. The result is usually Forsberg not budging and he can skate well while being leaned on. Crosby is alot quicker, so players can't skate fast enough to lean on him for extended periods of time. When people hit him he dosent budge either and he displays the same talent for always leaning the right way into traffic. Being able to do all that but at a faster level, makes Crosby better.

Shooting: Crosby. His shot is surgical but neither he nor Forsberg like to shot alot. Since they have allowed Crosby to roam to the point as I had suggested numerous times being the brilliant hockey mind that I am. He has been launching some one-time lasers from the point. As of right now he is only slightly better than Forsberg at shooting but soon I think he is going to be a tremendous goal scorer.

Stickwork: Crosby. He can do everything that Forsberg can do but at a much faster level.

Boardwork: Crosby. He not only can fight off checks as well as Forsberg but he can level those who are unsuspecting or smaller. Crosby plays like a 6'8" forward, fearless.
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Postby FlyerNation on Wed Feb 01, 2006 9:28 am

NIN wrote:
FlyerNation wrote:Speed: Crosby

toughness: Forsberg has always been a marked man and gets hammered every night plus hasd been through serious wars. Cindy is getting there but hasn't faced playoff intensity yet.

checking: Draw (neither are big time bangers) Forsberg is exceptional at driving his men to the boards though. Forsberg can still lay an unexpected big hit once in a while.

balance: Forsberg The guy has people draped all over him and still is able to make a play. A tendecy to go down but that's because he's a flopper but not out of his lack of skate balance.

shooting: Draw: Neither shoot often enough. Forsberg does have an accurate shot when he decides to shoot but for argument sake I'll call it a draw. Sidney has a nice shot in close.

stickwork: Forsberg, Forsberg is unbelievable in tight situations and at times can work between 3 defenders to make a play. At times it looks like the puck is glued to his blade. Plus he is patient.

durability: Crosby obviously

boardwork: Forsberg. That's where he does his most damage especially down low and behind the net. He loves to work in tight.


Speed: Crosby of course. He can reach top speed in two or three strides, tremendous acceleration, few in the league can match his speed. Let alone Forsberg who is average at best.

Toughness: Draw. I don't need to remind Flyer fans about who scored a game winner in OT minus 3 chicklets. EVERY GAME Crosby has dealt with the biggest, nastiest players in the league and they ALL make it a point to introduce themselves to Crosby. He is an 18 year old rookie and he isnt backing down from any of them. Forsberg once got destroyed by McCarty, I mean beaten like a *****. I can't imagine Crosby laying down and getting pounded on like that but time will tell. Out of respect for all the abuse Forsberg has played through, and all the nagging injuries, I will make it a tie out of respect.

Checking: Crosby. He is exceptional at it, but very very selective. He has simply DESTORYED players that are 6'5" 230lbs.+ but they never knew what hit them. Crosby understands the laws of physics and he has displayed force over matter all season. Players his size are frequently bumped several feet out of his way almost effortlessly. Forsberg plays physical, but he was never as good at checking as Crosby is already.

Balance: After some consideration, Crosby. Forsberg positions his skates as good as anybody I have ever seen play, he is right up there with Kovalev. It looks like he has dislocated his ankle at times, just so he can be properly braced for the impact. The result is usually Forsberg not budging and he can skate well while being leaned on. Crosby is alot quicker, so players can't skate fast enough to lean on him for extended periods of time. When people hit him he dosent budge either and he displays the same talent for always leaning the right way into traffic. Being able to do all that but at a faster level, makes Crosby better.

Shooting: Crosby. His shot is surgical but neither he nor Forsberg like to shot alot. Since they have allowed Crosby to roam to the point as I had suggested numerous times being the brilliant hockey mind that I am. He has been launching some one-time lasers from the point. As of right now he is only slightly better than Forsberg at shooting but soon I think he is going to be a tremendous goal scorer.

Stickwork: Crosby. He can do everything that Forsberg can do but at a much faster level.

Boardwork: Crosby. He not only can fight off checks as well as Forsberg but he can level those who are unsuspecting or smaller. Crosby plays like a 6'8" forward, fearless.


Nonsense. You have proven many times in the past you have no idea what the hell your talking about in any sport. This really confrims that.

Look around NIN, you're the only one who would even attempt to make this argument. Not even the diehardest of Crosby fans or Flyers haters here would agree with you, but go ahead keep making a complete fool of yourself. You could post this at any teams message board in the league, any team and you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who doesn't think you're talking out your ass.
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Postby FallenHero96 on Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:03 am

Sorry NIN, but FlyerNation is right. Your skill breakdown is way too generous to Crosby.
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Postby FlyerNation on Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:23 am

FallenHero96 wrote:Sorry NIN, but FlyerNation is right. Your skill breakdown is way too generous to Crosby.
I have no problem with him giving some props to Crosby, the kid will be a star, but his breakdown is a complete joke to Forsberg. This had to be NIN's first season to ever see Forsberg play to give that analysis. Even if it was and you went solely off our games vs each other you still couldn't be ignorant enough to give that description.
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Jeez are you being defensive

Postby NIN on Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:27 pm

FlyerNation wrote:
FallenHero96 wrote:Sorry NIN, but FlyerNation is right. Your skill breakdown is way too generous to Crosby.
I have no problem with him giving some props to Crosby, the kid will be a star, but his breakdown is a complete joke to Forsberg. This had to be NIN's first season to ever see Forsberg play to give that analysis. Even if it was and you went solely off our games vs each other you still couldn't be ignorant enough to give that description.


I wish Crosby played as defenseive as well as you act at times. The thing your overlooking is that I gave Forsberg the nod in passing,hockey sense, and diving. He is alot more seasoned in all 3. Crosby has made some very risky passes on the power play and they havent worked. If Forsberg were to make those same choices he would have made sure those passes got there. Crosby doesnt even take a regualr shift on the PK because of his faceoff work and I suspect the risk of a shot block injury which he is more than willing to take. These are areas that he has been improving at but until he does Forsberg has a deffinate edge. All of the other skills pretty much come down to raw physical talent and it's easy to tell which is better. I have watched many a playoff game featuring Forsberg and he is tremengous with the puck. Just because someone hasnt made all those moves or accomplished all those plays dosent mean they wont. At 18 he has already shown that he can make those plays and many Forsberg never could.
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Crosby not a finisher on the whole

Postby Jamie on Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:25 pm

Flyer Nation, I agree with your break down between Sid and Floppa, with the exception of finishing and the shot. Sid is a finisher. He will score near 40 goals his rookie season, maybe slightly over 40. A 40 goal man is a finisher in any league. And have you watched Sid release his backhand? At 18 years old Sid has one of the best backhand shots I have ever witnessed. Forsberg has always prided himself as a setup guy, that can score the occasional BIG goal. I do not believe when Forsberg's career is over he will have achieved the 500 goal milestone. It will be close, but I do not see him staying healthy long enough to achieve that milestone.
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Postby MrKnowNothing on Wed Feb 01, 2006 7:30 pm

It's not a fair comparison between the two, either way.

When he is fully healthy, Forsberg is a force like no other in the NHL. I'd take a healthy Forsberg on my team over Jagr (though it's obviously close either way).

Forsberg doesn't seem to get a whole lot of credit because he kind of fades away out of the spotlight for a decent period of time due to his injury problems.

With that said, comparing Crosby to a future Forsberg is a pretty good comparison. My earliest impressions of Crosby were much like things I've seen from Forsberg. They play a very similar game. If Crosby stays relatively injury free for his career, I think it will give us a good idea of all that could have been for Forsberg (who isn't that old, anyways, but I just mention this given his constant battles with injuries).
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Postby guiner on Wed Feb 01, 2006 8:57 pm

Ben Klingston wrote:One of the things that kind of worries me about Crosby is that he seems to go to the same moves over and over.

Split the D on the 2 on 1.

Making the 'slap-pass' on the PP.

But hey, if it works, Ok. He'll probably have to get burned by it a few times, but until he does, make someone stop him is the theory, I guess.

I agree with the others on Forsberg comparisons. Especially on the physicality part. I'd be ecstatic if he's Forsberg's equal some day. The very real prospect that he will be better than Forsberg is... awesome.

And the fact that we have a guy coming (hopefully) next year who has just as much chance to become that level of player is... very awesome.


I don't. When Jagr came into the league, he had only one shot, the backhand in tight. The most impressive thing about Crosby is how when he goes into the corners, you can see that he has a plan, and he executes in90% of the time, on how to get between the guy, the puck, control it and get out. He does it over and over.

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