The Jagr Trade: "A Fistful of Dollars"

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Re: The Jagr Trade: "A Fistful of Dollars"

Postby Draftnik on Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:31 am

NIN wrote:What your saying is that based on the decreased productivity that Jagr experianced in Washinton combined with the new $11 million/year deal Leonsis gave him (3 mil. more then he made when Patrick dealt him) that Patrick could not have gotten more interest if he was willing to take money BACK as well? :shock: I see who I am dealing with now. Please end this thread Draftnik, I have seen enough stupidity for one morning.


You don't even have your facts straight. Jagr was starting a 5 year $55M contract when he was dealt to the Caps. That is a fact, not my opinion. Leonsis did not give Jagr a $3M raise, he added 2 years at $11M per to his contract. Again a fact, not my opinion.

An entity is only worth what somebody else is willing to pay for it. That is Econ 101. Jagr's "worth" has been set twice by the marketplace. You have no clue as to the discussions CP, McPhee, and Sather had and what other GMs felt about Jagr. Milburry was on the record before/after the Yashin trade stating he had no interest in Jagr.

When the Pens traded Kovalev back to the NYR former Leaf GM Pat Quinn was in the papers the next day complaining that he offered much more talent to the Pens, but the board at MLSE would not allow him to throw cash into the pot. No GMs were in the paper after CP dealt Jagr to the Caps complaining that they were ready with a better offer but were constrained by cash considerations. You also have no clue how much cash the Pens wanted. The Pens had to get special rulings from the NHL on the Jagr and Kovy deals as the Caps did when they dealt Jagr to the NYR. These transactions are more complicated that your PlayStation machine can fathom.
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Postby NIN on Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:33 am

I thought Jagr only made about 8 million when Patrick dealt him? He got alot more money from Leonsis when they restructured his contract. Jagr might have been in line to make 11 million the next season which is pretty much the same as saying he made 11 million then as well. But I am pretty sure he was only going to make 8 million that following season.

If nobody wants to beat this dead horse with me I understand. I just wish you werent all so easily brain washed.
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Postby Pitts on Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:38 am

I thought he was in line for $10 mil.
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Re: The Jagr Trade: "A Fistful of Dollars"

Postby NIN on Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:05 pm

Draftnik wrote: You have no clue as to the discussions CP, McPhee, and Sather had and what other GMs felt about Jagr.


Unbeknownst to you I do in fact have a secretly recorded transcript of the dealings:

Patrick: "Hey Milbury! What's up young man? How is Kevin Stevens doing?

Milbury: "Yeah yeah what do you want Patrick?

Patrick: "It is your lucky day my friend! The owners want me to dump Jagr to the highest bidder. I managed to explain to them the repercussions in tickets sales and what lossing a highly popular superstar like Jags could have. They agreed that I should dump as much salary as possible but get a return that will keep the team competitive now and into the future. You know how owners are?

Milbury: "I dunno Craig, I heard he complains of injuries and at times he sounds very depressed when addressing the media. I am not sure our locker room could hold up to that kind of negative attitude. You know how sensitive hockey players are. Besides Craig I hear Yashin is dating a supermodel that is even prettier than Jagr's girlfriend!"

Patrick: "Sounds like you have found your sense of humor and dried your tears since that ass whopping we gave you. How is Neely holding up by the way? Don't hang up! Don't hang up! Look Mike, a 5 time scoring champion, 2 Cups, and he is in his prime and ready to find a fresh start and breath new life into his career. He just wants to go someplace new and be the #1 guy and win some more Cups. We have been doing some negative PR around Jags to let the fans think that he is devalueing himself so we can get nothing but money and over-hyped never to see the NHL "prospects". Since he is a Euro the fans are buying it, but you know the real score Mike, your a smart guy. Give me 3 quality guys so I can keep one decent one and sell off the other two."

Milbury: "This better not be another Stevens double cross! OK. Take your pick of any 2 players and I will pick a prospect. I will throw in a few million too. Oh man I can't beleive we are going to get Jagr! I am a genious! At last the Cup is ours!!"

Patrick:" Oh crap there is the other line. I hope Mario has'nt been talking to Leonsis again. Call you back Mike."
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Postby pfim on Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:26 pm

NIN wrote:I thought Jagr only made about 8 million when Patrick dealt him? He got alot more money from Leonsis when they restructured his contract. Jagr might have been in line to make 11 million the next season which is pretty much the same as saying he made 11 million then as well. But I am pretty sure he was only going to make 8 million that following season.

If nobody wants to beat this dead horse with me I understand. I just wish you werent all so easily brain washed.


He made close to $10 million in his last year with the Pens, in a contract that escalated in its final two years, I think they owed him $20.5 in the last two years.
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Postby pfim on Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:33 pm

ziggystardust wrote:
netwolf wrote:
Pitts wrote:NIN, really, no one cares about the Jagr trade anymore. Really.


Neither does he. He really wants to catch me. :P

Fact is, no one here knows for a fact what was on the table, other than the Rangers' offer, which supposedly included Kim Johnsson. Johnsson would have likely been traded away during the "survival mode" anyhow.

What could have happened, did.



the Senators traded an overpaid, underproducing, playoff enigma for Spezza and Chara....


Makes you wonder why the Isles wouldn't offer the same for a moody, dying alive Czech who had a disappointing playoffs that year in which a 5'9" defenseman scored more goals than him. That team never would have made it to the conference finals without Lemieux, don't think you can say the same about Jagr.
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Postby NIN on Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:41 pm

Well I found some facts regarding Jagr's contract history.

http://www.hockeyzoneplus.com/salaries/1720

Looks like he was scheduled to make 10 million going into the season Patrick traded him, but NOT a long contract so the risk was'nt as severe as some would have you beleive. Certainly that is a tough contract to move if your not going to take any money (ie. talent) back but not nearly as tough as what the Capitals had to deal with!

When they traded him his contract was 5/55 million and he just had two very average seasons. I don't see the relivance to the original topic of this thread.
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Postby Draftnik on Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:16 pm

NIN wrote:Well I found some facts regarding Jagr's contract history.

http://www.hockeyzoneplus.com/salaries/1720

Looks like he was scheduled to make 10 million going into the season Patrick traded him, but NOT a long contract so the risk was'nt as severe as some would have you beleive. Certainly that is a tough contract to move if your not going to take any money (ie. talent) back but not nearly as tough as what the Capitals had to deal with!

When they traded him his contract was 5/55 million and he just had two very average seasons. I don't see the relivance to the original topic of this thread.


Jagr was owed $20.7M for 2 when traded, so Leonsis gave him a $55M and 5 extension. I did transpose the figures. Either way you are operating on the mistaken premise that there was a market for Jagr in July 2001. There were no GMs moaning after the Jagr deal as there were after the Kovy deal.

You also are not acknowledging that the Pens felt they could legitimately compete for the Cup (as was Lemieux's wish) in the 01/02 season with their plan. Your cascading plan of multiple fantasy trades that would not provide that option.

Finally you are not acknowledging that the Pens and Caps for that matter had no reason to expect that Beech, Lupaschuk, and Sivek would turn out to be unmitigated busts. It is easy to say in hindsight the talent quotient from the Caps was nonexistent. I don't think anybody expected that all 3 guys would never come close to becoming even marginal NHL players.

The relevance to the Jagr NYR trade has always been the fact that there were only 2 teams ever interested in trading for him under any circumstances.
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Postby Scott on Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:36 pm

A big point missed here;

When Jagr was being dealt, it was a buyers market for him. Everyone knew we HAD to dump him and his massive contract.

Teams were not going to give the world to us knowing he had to be traded.

Remember this on Patrick...
when he did have the money to spend, we won. He is not error free as no GM is. BUt he did win.

Recently we have sucked and everyone being spoiled from the 90's wants his head.

Not easy drafting low almost every year in the 90's. Going deep into the playoffs almost every year in the 90's, it is kind of hard to develop young players as they wont get quality ice time.

HIs trade in 1990 might be the greatest of all time in the NHL. Setting the bar that high for himself leaves only negatives to look at.
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Postby NIN on Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:43 pm

Jagr was owed $20.7M for 2 when traded, so Leonsis gave him a $55M and 5 extension. I did transpose the figures. Either way you are operating on the mistaken premise that there was a market for Jagr in July 2001.


Jagr had two years remaining at $20 mil., that much we can agree on. That is by no means an easy contract to move and especially not when you consider what the current economic state of the NHL was then. The Cpaitals signed Jagr for SEVEN (7) years at 77 million, not 5. It was at 5/55 mil at the time they proposed to trade him and that was after TWO very average seasons, by Jagr standards anyways. It is not relivant to the Penguins situation at the time. That is another topic entirely.


You also are not acknowledging that the Pens felt they could legitimately compete for the Cup (as was Lemieux's wish) in the 01/02 season with their plan. Your cascading plan of multiple fantasy trades that would not provide that option.


Could you really have typed this? Patrick said himself that it would be THREE YEARS before any of those prospects would be NHL ready let alone pan out! It was a dump, plan and simple. They included Kucera for crying out loud. They did not want to burden themselves with any NHL contracts regardless of what that would have done to the standings. My idea suggests that there could have been a much better way to save money and stay competitive, but even now some people are too stuborn to even consider the possibility that CP messed up bigtime. I find it fascinateing that your not alone in your arguments while I am.

Finally you are not acknowledging that the Pens and Caps for that matter had no reason to expect that Beech, Lupaschuk, and Sivek would turn out to be unmitigated busts.


I thought Beech would make it to the NHL someday and be a good player like Morrison is in Vancouver. I still think he could be a that player and Patrick is hoping he has success so it will help him save some face in light of what has become known as awful scouting. The other two never had nearly as much promise as Beech, after seeing them play I really doubt anybody was "jumping up and down" EVER when talking about their future in the NHL. Average at best.

I am suggesting that Patrick could have made the team alot more competitive and gradually saved the same amount of money instead of just dumping it all away at once for very little future return and zero immediate return.
Last edited by NIN on Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby NIN on Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:50 pm

ziggystardust wrote:in related news, this thread convinced me to watch A Fist Full of Dollars for the first time in a few years.

I forgot how good that movie was. It's an absolute classic.


I love speghetti westerns. It doesnt matter what else is on, if their on, im watching.
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Re: The Jagr Trade: "A Fistful of Dollars"

Postby Scott on Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:13 pm

NIN wrote:
Draftnik wrote: You have no clue as to the discussions CP, McPhee, and Sather had and what other GMs felt about Jagr.


Unbeknownst to you I do in fact have a secretly recorded transcript of the dealings:

Patrick: "Hey Milbury! What's up young man? How is Kevin Stevens doing?

Milbury: "Yeah yeah what do you want Patrick?

Patrick: "It is your lucky day my friend! The owners want me to dump Jagr to the highest bidder. I managed to explain to them the repercussions in tickets sales and what lossing a highly popular superstar like Jags could have. They agreed that I should dump as much salary as possible but get a return that will keep the team competitive now and into the future. You know how owners are?

Milbury: "I dunno Craig, I heard he complains of injuries and at times he sounds very depressed when addressing the media. I am not sure our locker room could hold up to that kind of negative attitude. You know how sensitive hockey players are. Besides Craig I hear Yashin is dating a supermodel that is even prettier than Jagr's girlfriend!"

Patrick: "Sounds like you have found your sense of humor and dried your tears since that ass whopping we gave you. How is Neely holding up by the way? Don't hang up! Don't hang up! Look Mike, a 5 time scoring champion, 2 Cups, and he is in his prime and ready to find a fresh start and breath new life into his career. He just wants to go someplace new and be the #1 guy and win some more Cups. We have been doing some negative PR around Jags to let the fans think that he is devalueing himself so we can get nothing but money and over-hyped never to see the NHL "prospects". Since he is a Euro the fans are buying it, but you know the real score Mike, your a smart guy. Give me 3 quality guys so I can keep one decent one and sell off the other two."

Milbury: "This better not be another Stevens double cross! OK. Take your pick of any 2 players and I will pick a prospect. I will throw in a few million too. Oh man I can't beleive we are going to get Jagr! I am a genious! At last the Cup is ours!!"

Patrick:" Oh crap there is the other line. I hope Mario has'nt been talking to Leonsis again. Call you back Mike."


Wow. Way too much time on your hands.
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Re: The Jagr Trade: "A Fistful of Dollars"

Postby NIN on Wed Mar 08, 2006 2:29 pm

Scott wrote:
NIN wrote:
Draftnik wrote: You have no clue as to the discussions CP, McPhee, and Sather had and what other GMs felt about Jagr.


Unbeknownst to you I do in fact have a secretly recorded transcript of the dealings:

Patrick: "Hey Milbury! What's up young man? How is Kevin Stevens doing?

Milbury: "Yeah yeah what do you want Patrick?

Patrick: "It is your lucky day my friend! The owners want me to dump Jagr to the highest bidder. I managed to explain to them the repercussions in tickets sales and what lossing a highly popular superstar like Jags could have. They agreed that I should dump as much salary as possible but get a return that will keep the team competitive now and into the future. You know how owners are?

Milbury: "I dunno Craig, I heard he complains of injuries and at times he sounds very depressed when addressing the media. I am not sure our locker room could hold up to that kind of negative attitude. You know how sensitive hockey players are. Besides Craig I hear Yashin is dating a supermodel that is even prettier than Jagr's girlfriend!"

Patrick: "Sounds like you have found your sense of humor and dried your tears since that ass whopping we gave you. How is Neely holding up by the way? Don't hang up! Don't hang up! Look Mike, a 5 time scoring champion, 2 Cups, and he is in his prime and ready to find a fresh start and breath new life into his career. He just wants to go someplace new and be the #1 guy and win some more Cups. We have been doing some negative PR around Jags to let the fans think that he is devalueing himself so we can get nothing but money and over-hyped never to see the NHL "prospects". Since he is a Euro the fans are buying it, but you know the real score Mike, your a smart guy. Give me 3 quality guys so I can keep one decent one and sell off the other two."

Milbury: "This better not be another Stevens double cross! OK. Take your pick of any 2 players and I will pick a prospect. I will throw in a few million too. Oh man I can't beleive we are going to get Jagr! I am a genious! At last the Cup is ours!!"

Patrick:" Oh crap there is the other line. I hope Mario has'nt been talking to Leonsis again. Call you back Mike."


Wow. Way too much time on your hands.


I am watching The SOng Remains the Same and doing my taxes as wel as posting on 2 different message boards and checking my email. It doesnt take much effort or thought to maintain a discussion on a Penguin message board.

You have to admit ^, that is freaking hilarious stuff.
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Postby Draftnik on Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:33 pm

NIN wrote:Could you really have typed this? Patrick said himself that it would be THREE YEARS before any of those prospects would be NHL ready let alone pan out! It was a dump, plan and simple. They included Kucera for crying out loud. They did not want to burden themselves with any NHL contracts regardless of what that would have done to the standings. My idea suggests that there could have been a much better way to save money and stay competitive, but even now some people are too stuborn to even consider the possibility that CP messed up bigtime. I find it fascinateing that your not alone in your arguments while I am.


Beech made the Caps in the previous training camp and was sent back to JR after 4 games. Many thought he was NHL ready at the time of the trade. In retrospect he was no less NHL ready then than he is today which is to say he was never NHL material.

The 3 prospects from the Caps were not going to make the Pens contenders in 01/02. The fact that the Pens moved Jagr's $10M which allowed the Pens swallow the arbitration awards for Kovy, Lang, Straka, and Kaspar while signing Lemieux to a contract reflecting his Hart finalist status was what they thought would make them contenders. I'm sure they also expected Morozov, Kraft, etc to justify their first round status to pick up some slack as well, but that is another story...

I gave CP a pass on this because he was forced to ask for $$$ back and every other team knew Jagr had turned into a headcase. If anybody is to be faulted it is Greg Malone and his staff for allegedly asking for the 3 stooges. We will agree to disagree on this. Have a nice day.
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Postby NIN on Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:43 pm

Draftnik wrote:Have a nice day.


You too. :o
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