Curtain to Close for Craig Patrick in Pittsburgh

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Postby Bowser on Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:36 pm

I disagree.

It would be a better investment to buy the Penguins before they get confirmation of a new arena. Once an arena is finalized, the value of the franchise will skyrocket.

or

Buy the team and no arena deal can be cut, the new owners will try to resale or move to Houston or Portland.

A win-win for any new ownership group.
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Postby The Snapshot on Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:38 pm

Admin wrote:
The Snapshot wrote:How was that end of that? I fell asleep halfway through.

Spoiler: Harry Potter defeats Voldemort yet again. 8)


Does that make Bowser Ron Weasley or Dobby? I know Bowser really does like socks....
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I agree with you, not having the Arena means "buying lo

Postby The Snapshot on Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:39 pm

Bowser wrote:I disagree.

It would be a better investment to buy the Penguins before they get confirmation of a new arena. Once an arena is finalized, the value of the franchise will skyrocket.

or

Buy the team and no arena deal can be cut, the new owners will try to resale or move to Houston or Portland.

A win-win for any new ownership group.
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Postby Bowser on Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:44 pm

Snap - that's just cruel... Dobby fits my looks... I guess... who wants to be a whiny little wuss like Ron.
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Postby Pitts on Tue Mar 14, 2006 5:44 pm

Bowser wrote:I disagree.

It would be a better investment to buy the Penguins before they get confirmation of a new arena. Once an arena is finalized, the value of the franchise will skyrocket.

or

Buy the team and no arena deal can be cut, the new owners will try to resale or move to Houston or Portland.

A win-win for any new ownership group.


I hate how it jumps to page 2 in mid conversation!

Anyway, I hope you're right. I'd rather a new group come forward immediately and let the house-cleaning begin before the June draft. I just don't see it happening that fast.
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Postby DayWalker on Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:00 pm

Bowser certainly has an interesting perspective on Craig Patrick's tenure as the Penguins' GM...

However...

I fundamentally disagree with the notion that Craig Patrick was willing to accept a lesser offer for Jaromir Jagr from the Washington Capitals solely because of a feeling of "disdain" from the New York Rangers. Nevermind the fact that there is likely NO evidence for such a proposition or that there were other superior AND confirmed offers on the table for Jagr, why would Craig Patrick damage his standing with and the standing of the organization for whom he works, solely out of spite? That makes no sense, and is the conspiracy-mongering that makes many an avid fan avoid message boards altogether.

Sadly, unless and until Craig Patrick is no longer GM of the Penguins, this poarticular episode will continue to return from the dead...
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Re: Curtain to Close for Craig Patrick in Pittsburgh

Postby Daniel on Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:00 pm

I think the one thing that hindered CP in the 90s was money. Not to say that he was a great GM, but there were other factors into the bad drafting/development.

I do think it is time that CP stepped down in order to get more youth and enthusiasm into the GM position. I think the Pens can lure a pretty good GM, because of the top end young talent in the franchise. I think it would help to have a new owner in place before CP leaves though.
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Postby Bowser on Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:05 pm

explain to me how Beech, Sivek, Lupaschuk, and $5 million was better than Jan Hlavac-LW, Kim Johnsson-D, Mike York-C, and cash.
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Postby The Snapshot on Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:10 pm

Bowser wrote:Snap - that's just cruel... Dobby fits my looks... I guess... who wants to be a whiny little wuss like Ron.


So, you wear a Toga all the time? Sweet!!
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Postby Jim on Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:14 pm

Bowser wrote:explain to me how Beech, Sivek, Lupaschuk, and $5 million was better than Jan Hlavac-LW, Kim Johnsson-D, Mike York-C, and cash.


We will never be 100% sure what the Rangers offer was. Speculating on it now, years later is pointless.

This is one thing that I think is cool about the Recchi deal. It was basically Philly or Carolina. I think it's cool that Philly's GM came out and said the CP actually did take the better deal.
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Postby DayWalker on Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:16 pm

Bowser wrote:explain to me how Beech, Sivek, Lupaschuk, and $5 million was better than Jan Hlavac-LW, Kim Johnsson-D, Mike York-C, and cash.


That was offered for certain? What is your source? Slats?
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Postby Bowser on Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:22 pm

Daywalker - The NYR package was the rumor back then... I'm not harping on the deal but when you write a review of why Patrick finds himself about to be a free agent GM, the failed trades are most certainly important to the current mess.

Snap - Do I even wear clothes?

I think its clear the Flyers were not going to offer anything for Recchi other than picks. Carolina gave up nothing but two depth guys and a pick for next year.
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Postby Tocchet on Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:24 pm

I fundamentally disagree with the notion that Craig Patrick was willing to accept a lesser offer for Jaromir Jagr from the Washington Capitals solely because of a feeling of "disdain" from the New York Rangers. Nevermind the fact that there is likely NO evidence for such a proposition or that there were other superior AND confirmed offers on the table for Jagr, why would Craig Patrick damage his standing with and the standing of the organization for whom he works, solely out of spite? That makes no sense, and is the conspiracy-mongering that makes many an avid fan avoid message boards altogether.

Agree 100%. Further, I thought the initial word was that Brendl was part of that deal.

Remember, at that point in time, the Pens had serious financial issues (i.e., BANKRUPTCY) and obtained 3 of the Caps' top 5 prospects plus $5 million in cash.


The beauty of 20/20 hindsight and revisionist history to fit an agenda or argument...
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Postby ville5 on Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:28 pm

[quote="Bowser"]explain to me how Beech, Sivek, Lupaschuk, and $5 million was better than Jan Hlavac-LW, Kim Johnsson-D, Mike York-C, and cash.[/quote]
Because CP couldn't take any salary back, thus the "prospects". For someone that claims inside sources, you should know that. :roll:
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Postby DayWalker on Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:29 pm

Bowser wrote:Daywalker - The NYR package was the rumor back then... I'm not harping on the deal but when you write a review of why Patrick finds himself about to be a free agent GM, the failed trades are most certainly important to the current mess.

Snap - Do I even wear clothes?

I think its clear the Flyers were not going to offer anything for Recchi other than picks. Carolina gave up nothing but two depth guys and a pick for next year.


That it was merely a "rumor" suggests that one cannot necessarily blame Craig Patrick for the meager return on the Jaromir Jagr trade or suggest that he "failed" in this regard. I am more inclined to believe that a HOF GM made the best deal AVAILABLE.

And surely you will concede that Patrick's supposed "failure" to obtain better players/prospects in that deal-and others similar in nature to the Jagr deal (namely the Kovy deal)-is the linchpin for the arguments that CP must go?

I think CP's record with respect to coaching decisions, drafting, and player development are indeed fair game, but I do NOT think his track record with respect to personnel transactions-trades, signings, etc.-provides a persuasive case for his removal as Penguin GM. That the Jagr and Kovy deals were made because of dire economic circumstances is hardly the fault of the guy who ain't writing the checks to cover operating expenses...
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Postby DayWalker on Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:31 pm

Tocchet wrote:
I fundamentally disagree with the notion that Craig Patrick was willing to accept a lesser offer for Jaromir Jagr from the Washington Capitals solely because of a feeling of "disdain" from the New York Rangers. Nevermind the fact that there is likely NO evidence for such a proposition or that there were other superior AND confirmed offers on the table for Jagr, why would Craig Patrick damage his standing with and the standing of the organization for whom he works, solely out of spite? That makes no sense, and is the conspiracy-mongering that makes many an avid fan avoid message boards altogether.

Agree 100%. Further, I thought the initial word was that Brendl was part of that deal.

Remember, at that point in time, the Pens had serious financial issues (i.e., BANKRUPTCY) and obtained 3 of the Caps' top 5 prospects plus $5 million in cash.


The beauty of 20/20 hindsight and revisionist history to fit an agenda or argument...


The only deal I recall being "confirmed" was a package that included a soon-to-retire Valery Kamensky and third-line forward Tim Taylor.

Oh, and wasn't it Tomas Kloucek in those rumors, rather than Kim Johnsson?
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Postby Bowser on Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:34 pm

My Harry Potter powers have been leaked... who told that I have 20/20 skills?

The NYR players were low paid NHL players at the time of the deal, if the Penguins wanted to seriously make a move or two. Maybe they should have looked into the crystal ball and demanded the 2004 #1 pick. I blame Patrick for Ovechkin in DC, ha ha ha.
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Postby DayWalker on Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:40 pm

Bowser wrote:My Harry Potter powers have been leaked... who told that I have 20/20 skills?

The NYR players were low paid NHL players at the time of the deal, if the Penguins wanted to seriously make a move or two. Maybe they should have looked into the crystal ball and demanded the 2004 #1 pick. I blame Patrick for Ovechkin in DC, ha ha ha.


Assuming those NYR players were even offered...

Why offer Kim Johnsson or Mike York when you don't have to (or at least do not BELIEVE that you have to?)

And why would the KIngs have potentially wrecked a roster that just ousted the Red Wings the previous spring to tie up nearly 1/3 of their payroll in an overpaid malcontent? Teams don't tend to do those things...
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Postby Jim on Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:51 pm

Bowser wrote:Maybe they should have looked into the crystal ball and demanded the 2004 #1 pick. I blame Patrick for Ovechkin in DC, ha ha ha.


Could you imagion that... Having both the #1 and #2 picks in that draft and getting both AO and Malkin...
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Postby Daniel on Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:39 pm

Since we don't know the Pens budget at the time, we can't assume they would be able to take even 3 players with NHL salaries.

Heck, if I told you that Mario told CP to get the cheapest return in order to sell the team with top end prospects, you couldn't dispute it. :shock:
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jagr trade...

Postby penny lane on Tue Mar 14, 2006 7:41 pm

Tocchet wrote:
I fundamentally disagree with the notion that Craig Patrick was willing to accept a lesser offer for Jaromir Jagr from the Washington Capitals solely because of a feeling of "disdain" from the New York Rangers. Nevermind the fact that there is likely NO evidence for such a proposition or that there were other superior AND confirmed offers on the table for Jagr, why would Craig Patrick damage his standing with and the standing of the organization for whom he works, solely out of spite? That makes no sense, and is the conspiracy-mongering that makes many an avid fan avoid message boards altogether.

Agree 100%. Further, I thought the initial word was that Brendl was part of that deal.

Remember, at that point in time, the Pens had serious financial issues (i.e., BANKRUPTCY) and obtained 3 of the Caps' top 5 prospects plus $5 million in cash.


The beauty of 20/20 hindsight and revisionist history to fit an agenda or argument...


you're right...the jagr trade allowed the pens to pay Mario and I
believe that Lang/Kovalev & Straka all had contract issues. they
either signed or went to arbitration. Of course...this team fell apart
with injuries but c'est la vie . (where's the francais edit?) :wink:
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Re: Curtain to Close for Craig Patrick in Pittsburgh

Postby NIN on Tue Mar 14, 2006 8:46 pm

Hiring Bowman and Johnston were very smart moves. Ptarick's drafting and personnel delcined ALOT when Bowman left. The Naslund trade was a terrible mistake and the Jagr deal was very bad. Other then those two tiny little mistakes :wink: I think he has done well. I do not think there is a better GM out there and I think Patrick should stay but I feel it in my heart that he will be let go.

I would much rather see Sawyer and the greedy owners go and let Patrick get the fresh start he deserves with new ownership and a new winning attitude.
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Postby Ironhorse on Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:09 pm

we got rid of the nut case. No return made this fraanchise better!! That is my story and I'm sticking with it.
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Postby Pitts on Tue Mar 14, 2006 9:12 pm

Jim wrote:
Bowser wrote:Maybe they should have looked into the crystal ball and demanded the 2004 #1 pick. I blame Patrick for Ovechkin in DC, ha ha ha.


Could you imagion that... Having both the #1 and #2 picks in that draft and getting both AO and Malkin...

Lordy Be, then winning the Crosby lottery... :!:
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Postby NJ5934 on Tue Mar 14, 2006 10:51 pm

I was just watching the Caps - Sabres game and it occurred to me that Buffalo got more for Mike Peca (Pyatt and Connelly) than we have to show for Jagr, Straka, Kovalev, Kasper, Hrdina, and Lang (obviously). Think about that for a second.

Patrick patience has cost him in recent years. His failure to "strike while the iron is hot" so to speak has resulted in us consistantly trading down in talent. Finance no doubt effected it with some of the bigger names, BUT he (along with our "scouting staff") has struck out with nearly every single "prospect" we have dealt for. Either its because of a lack of quality "scouting", or incompetence.

His time is past. Its time for a more proactive GM.
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