Crosby called Malkin during WJC's...

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Postby Pitts on Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:54 am

I said he should have been brought back earlier in the season when they still owned his rights (which they still do until July 1). I don't care if the goals are perimeter either. Goals are goals period. He WOULD outscore most of the inept forwards on this team. I think Morozov's speed and shot would be a good fit in this "new" NHL.
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Postby rananda on Wed Feb 01, 2006 10:57 am

yea i just dont think you get it. im not saying morozov's so great he can do it by himself w/o playing w skilled players. there are not many nhl'ers who can. look at huselius. huselius is a good, talented hockey player. playing in fla this year he had basically no points. now in clagary w iginla he's scoring alot. does this mean he sucks. because he couldnt produce w/o iginla but can now that means he's bad? trust me, calgary WISHES they had another player that could produce with iginla. it's not that easy.

there are tons of gm's who would love to have a player they could pair w a star and who would produce. dont you think the caps would love to have someone play w ovechkin, or someone to play w sundin in toronto, the list goes on.

your point about no other teams making an offer for him shows your lack of knowledge. there have only been 2 instances of teams making offer sheets to restricted fa's in the last 10 years (sakic and federov, both were matched). youre right, morozov didnt become number 3. if gm's are paying attention he will be made an offer as an ufa this summer. i dont know if it will be more than what he gets in kazan but hopefully we'll see him back. either way, i know morozov is at least as good as kristian huselius who is a successful first line winger on one of the best teams in the league, however by your definition, he sucks. congrats.
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Postby puckad on Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:26 pm

Tikkanen: I agree 100%. And who knows what a couple of years in mother Russia has done to his game and confidence? Stick him on a line with either Crosby or Malkin next season and see what happens.
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Postby vcip on Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:27 pm

I agree Morozov should be brought back for these reasons. They have no finishers on this team & he can be one. I remember him playing with Mario & Kovy & he was pretty damn good until he injured his wrist.
No doubt pairing him with some talent he would out perform anyone on this current team excpet Crosby.
Seeems to be a very good option.
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Postby netwolf on Wed Feb 01, 2006 1:50 pm

Whether he was given a fair shot or not doesn't matter. Neither does how good or bad he was while he was here or even how good or bad he is now.

He can't come back this season without clearing waivers first and someone would claim him. After this season, he becomes an undrestricted free agent. If he decides to return to the NHL, it won't be here. He may very well decide to stay in Russia. The choice he made before the lockout (which got him ripped by many here and in the Pens organization) worked out for him just fine.

At any rate, the Pittsburgh Penguins portion of Aleksey Morozov's career is over.
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Postby Jesse on Wed Feb 01, 2006 2:39 pm

Tocchet wrote:Talk about negating yourself, Jesse, but you say that the RSL is a super-defensive league and someone who scores as much as Malkin is a great player, based on that context. But then you argue that Morozov is a bum even though he's had back-to-back big scoring seasons in that same league, and change the "rules" by saying "well, I saw some of his goals, and they're perimeter goals." Big deal -- they're goals, right? And it's a super-defensive league, right?

Sorry, kid, but you can't have it both ways.

Whether it's Morozov or another native Russian, the Pens are going to need another Russian forward to play for the Pens next year to ease Malkin's transition to America and NHL hockey. Gonchar's a great start, but I'd like to see a forward too.


We have yet to see Malkin play on North American Ice.

We have seen Morozov play on North American Ice.

Why then, is there such a desparity between Morozov's numbers there, to Morozov's numbers here?

Ovechkin put up huge numbers in RSL. Everyone knew by the style in which he did so that the success there would easily translate to the NHL. It has.

People said the same about Morozov years ago, not in the magnitude in which a Ovechkin or Malkin get it, but still, Morozov scored a lot in RSL early on and was supposedly going to translate that success to the NHL.

It didn't happen. Which leads me to believe that's indicative of the ice surface and the type of play that is seen in RSL.

Malkin showcased his skills in the WJC's on a totally different stage from RSL. Therefore, and we'll see more of this in Turin, one can infer that Malkin has a high possibility for success outside of RSL.

So, to review. Morozov is a great scorer in RSL, there may be a few different factors that go into that. He isn't that scorer in the NHL. There's a huge desparity there.

Malkin puts up the same numbers, as did Ovechkin, both, to this point, have at least proved that success translates to another level of play.

Perhaps you are misunderstanding me, KID.
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Postby rananda on Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:08 pm

paired w crappy pens players morozov did not produce, correct. (except the year he led pens forwards in scoring)

paired w good pens players he did produce, in fact he did more than produce, he excelled. please tell me you think that isnt true so we can all laugh at you some more.

paired with crappy players in fla huselius didnt produce, playing w iginla he has.

not sure why this is difficult for you to understand. hockey is a team game and your linemates can make you look better or worse than you are.

watch malkin play in the olympics. if he plays w kharitonov and sushinsky, like i think he will, i doubt he will have a great tournament. whereas paired with ovechkin and afinogenov at the world champs he played great (not alot of points but he played well). skilled players, especially those who like to pass, need skilled linemates to play with. really this is not a hard concept but it is convenient for you to ignore it i guess.
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just to clarify

Postby rananda on Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:21 pm

you seem to be suggesting that morozov's lack of production in th nhl relative to the rsl can only be explained by ice surface (?!?!?!?) or style of play. not sure what ice surface has to do w anything, but style of play is certainly one possibility. another possibility, one that i think is more determinative in this case, is that he wasnt paired w the right people in pitt, or given the right opportunity (pp time). in the rsl he playes w a talented center (zinoviev) and a winger who can get the puck in the corners (zaripov). in pitt he played w 3rd liners. i happen to think style of play also plays a part. i bet morozov's game is better suited to the rsl than the nhl. but the skillset that leads to success in the rsl is not so different skill set that leads to success in the nhl. it's all skating and passing and shooting and stickhandling. they dont play basketball in the rsl. who he's played with in the 2 leagues is far more determinative in this case.

look at a reversed example. kovalchuck was playing w bums in last years world championships (fedor federov and vlad antipov). consequently, he didnt do squat. but we know how good he is in the nhl. does this mean his game is only suited to the nhl and not international competition. please man.
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Postby Jesse on Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:25 pm

rananda wrote:paired w crappy pens players morozov did not produce, correct. (except the year he led pens forwards in scoring)

paired w good pens players he did produce, in fact he did more than produce, he excelled. please tell me you think that isnt true so we can all laugh at you some more.

paired with crappy players in fla huselius didnt produce, playing w iginla he has.

not sure why this is difficult for you to understand. hockey is a team game and your linemates can make you look better or worse than you are.

watch malkin play in the olympics. if he plays w kharitonov and sushinsky, like i think he will, i doubt he will have a great tournament. whereas paired with ovechkin and afinogenov at the world champs he played great (not alot of points but he played well). skilled players, especially those who like to pass, need skilled linemates to play with. really this is not a hard concept but it is convenient for you to ignore it i guess.


I was having a nice conversation with you until this post. Now I'm a bit upset. "Laughing?"

First off, Morozov lead a team of complete bums in scoring. He had a hot beginning and end to the season but was virutally invisibile in the middle. Towards the end, when he was with Kraft, he was on fire. I distinctly recall the "show em' your jersey" game at the end of that year. But again, leading guys like Rico Fata and Kelly Buchberger in scoring is something I'd actually expect from Morozov. No argument there.

Now how, exactly, did Morozov "excel" as you put it? He played good with guys like Mario and Kovalev. I'd hardly call it "excelling".

Players that "excel" at hockey don't normally take 7 years to get their first 50 point season.

I don't think I am "convieniently ignoring" the fact that hockey is a team sport.

I think you're "convieniently ignoring" the fact that what I am saying is as follows.

Alexei Morozov does not translate the success from the RSL to the NHL well. This is visibly apparant, but something you have chosen to ignore.

Perhaps my belief that the larger ice surface allows Morozov more room to shoot the puck like a bandit from outside. Great. I never once said that those didn't and should not count as goals. You're misunderstanding me. What I AM saying is that in the NHL, the ice surface does not allow Morozov to do such a thing.

They call him Nurse for a reason. He is a player that doesn't like to get his nose dirty.

Is that a more precise explaination of my views to you?

Any of the guys you have listed, Huseliues, whatever, would put up points paired with Mario Lemieux and Alex Kovalev.

They could probably do so in a better manner, too.

Therefore, I don't worry about Morozov at all. What you've shown me is that, in his late 20's, he's only sucessfully producing if someone is helping him out. I truely believe that any of our young talent is fully capable of doing so on a regular basis with a better work ethic.
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Re: just to clarify

Postby Jesse on Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:29 pm

rananda wrote:you seem to be suggesting that morozov's lack of production in th nhl relative to the rsl can only be explained by ice surface (?!?!?!?) or style of play. not sure what ice surface has to do w anything, but style of play is certainly one possibility.


The fact that he has about twice the skating room helps a little bit.
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Postby vcip on Wed Feb 01, 2006 3:55 pm

I don't mean to butt in but the statement "What you've shown me is that, in his late 20's, he's only sucessfully producing if someone is helping him out" is a bit curious when he put up respectable numbers playing with scrubs for most of the season when he led the team. He did not have help. Sorry but I do not think guys on this team could do it.

So what if he is a FA. No reson they couldn't get him back with a decent deal & to help with Malkin. Offer him a decent deal & give him lots of ice time. What are the other options. Maybe they could trade back for Kovy, I would do that but Morozov is most likely the most practical option includine team familiarity, being a WING (sorely needed) that is Russian & probably the cheaper option. Hell they gave LeClait 1.5M.
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Postby Jesse on Wed Feb 01, 2006 4:00 pm

vcip wrote:I don't mean to butt in but the statement "What you've shown me is that, in his late 20's, he's only sucessfully producing if someone is helping him out" is a bit curious when he put up respectable numbers playing with scrubs for most of the season when he led the team. He did not have help. Sorry but I do not think guys on this team could do it.

So what if he is a FA. No reson they couldn't get him back with a decent deal & to help with Malkin. Offer him a decent deal & give him lots of ice time. What are the other options. Maybe they could trade back for Kovy, I would do that but Morozov is most likely the most practical option includine team familiarity, being a WING (sorely needed) that is Russian & probably the cheaper option. Hell they gave LeClait 1.5M.


"Helping him out" is a bad way to put it, I didn't mean it that way. Those scrubs tapped in quite a bit of goals for Morozov in 2003, he only had 15 goals that year if I'm remembering correctly.

It's a numbers game for me, as far as resigning him goes. First and foremost, I'd make sure to keep the length in check. I'd go short and see how he pans out the second time around. A russian contact, as someone pointed out before, is sorely needed for Malkin. Gonchar is a good start.

I'd rather sign a bigger FA Russian to come in.

Or, see if we can get Gladiskikh from the Ducks. He and EM play well together. I haven't kept track of recent lines like I used to, but they were feeding off each other for awhile.
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Postby vcip on Wed Feb 01, 2006 4:05 pm

Ok, but don't you think they need some skill on the Wing? Just suggesting Morozov solves more than one problem. He is skilled, he is Russian, he likes it in Pitt & he comes fairly cheaply as skilled players come.
Yes it has some risk because he is not consistent & not a "proven" goal scorer, but he is under 30 & never really played a full year with some talent.

Well then trade for Kovy like I said. :D [/quote]
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Postby Jesse on Wed Feb 01, 2006 4:09 pm

vcip wrote:Ok, but don't you think they need some skill on the Wing? Just suggesting Morozov solves more than one problem. He is skilled, he is Russian, he likes it in Pitt & he comes fairly cheaply as skilled players come.
Yes it has some risk because he is not consistent & not a "proven" goal scorer, but he is under 30 & never really played a full year with some talent.

Well then trade for Kovy like I said. :D
[/quote]

Cheap is something I would hope for, but the question is wether or not the Penguins held out on signing him because they were afraid to ask what he would cost.

And hey, Kovalev would be fine with me :D

How about Odeline and Jackman for Kovy! I'm sure they'd go for it up there :roll:
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Postby Draftnik on Wed Feb 01, 2006 4:10 pm

Morozov sucks. The guy does not have the courage to consistently play in NHL traffic. Most goals in the NHL are scored from the middle of the circles down and in. You have to be willing to pay the price, take and give body contact, etc to score in the NHL. Morozov is afraid to play in high traffic areas. I don't want to put words in Jesse's mouth, but I'd bet that is what he is talking about when he says he has seen clips of Morozov's RSL goals.

Most general RSL clips I've seen make that league look like a no contact All Star game compared to a typical NHL game.

Morozov scored on the first shift of his first game as a Pen. He was playing on the top line with Jagr & Francis vs. the LA Kings. He could he played on the top line the rest of his life if he played the game with heart and courage. Instead he played with indifference and fear. There was always an excuse; injury, wrong line, wrong position.....

It is easy to say he would play better with skilled linemates. That can be said about any player. I've seen Malkin play in the last 2 WJC and the last WC and I think his game translates better to the NHL than Morozov's because Malkin doesn't seem to be afraid to put himself in the good ice where guys get hit. The last 2 WJC were on the small NA ice and although he was shut out this year in the final game he did not appear to be a timid little girl like the Ice Princess.
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Postby the wicked child on Wed Feb 01, 2006 4:16 pm

If it means easing Malkin's transition, I'd welcome the Nurse back. We desparately need Malkin.
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Postby rananda on Wed Feb 01, 2006 4:22 pm

huselius and the other guys i mentioned would put up points w lemieux and kovalev. THATS WHY THEYRE CONSIDERED GOOD PLAYERS. players like fico fata and ryan malone and 2005 marck recchi and 2005 john leclair wont. THATS WHY THEYRE CONSIDERED CRAPPY PLAYERS. youve made my point for me.

agreed morozov's game is probably better suited to the larger ice for the reasons you listed. mats sundin's game is also better suited to the larger ice as well, this doesnt mean isnt a great nhl player. that is the point im making.

i would call what morozov did in his first stint w lemieux in 2002-03 (only a few games before lemieux reaggravated his hip) definitely excelling. he not only produced points, he produced alot of them. this included a hatrick, a few other goals, and nice assists to lemieux. go back and read the summaries of those 6 or 7 or 8 games. listen to what lemieux says about him. that, my friend, was excelling. watching lemieux play w straka and koltsov in the first 8 games of 03 (where morozov wasnt paired w him for some reason, way to go eddie o), that's called not excelling. also, there's the second stint w lemieux and kovalev where morozov put up 1.5 points over the first fifth of the season before him and tarnstrom got hurt and the pens tanked. you wouldnt call that excelling. very odd. he played amazing, scored a bunch of goals, and they had many pretty plays. what would you call it, playing good, doing what youre suppossed to. ridiculous, playing and keeping up w kovalev and lemieux is excellent. only good players like morozov and the many others i listed (and could list) can do that. that's why theyre considered good players.

there is zero chance of morozov coming back, at least if cp is in charge. morozov sold his home in pitt, and i would have to believe felt disrespected by them as they signed recchi and leclair for more money than theyd given him, especially after what he did for that team in 03-04.

hopefully george mcphee has been paying attention to morozov and he'll sign up to play w ovechkin. doubtful but it makes sense to me.

if you were to make the same argument for kraft, i could not argue with you. he never produced in the nhl like morozov has, nor has he produced abroad. but you just cant make those arguements about morozov.
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Postby Jesse on Wed Feb 01, 2006 4:23 pm

Draftnik wrote:Morozov sucks. The guy does not have the courage to consistently play in NHL traffic. Most goals in the NHL are scored from the middle of the circles down and in. You have to be willing to pay the price, take and give body contact, etc to score in the NHL. Morozov is afraid to play in high traffic areas. I don't want to put words in Jesse's mouth, but I'd bet that is what he is talking about when he says he has seen clips of Morozov's RSL goals.

Most general RSL clips I've seen make that league look like a no contact All Star game compared to a typical NHL game.

Morozov scored on the first shift of his first game as a Pen. He was playing on the top line with Jagr & Francis vs. the LA Kings. He could he played on the top line the rest of his life if he played the game with heart and courage. Instead he played with indifference and fear. There was always an excuse; injury, wrong line, wrong position.....

It is easy to say he would play better with skilled linemates. That can be said about any player. I've seen Malkin play in the last 2 WJC and the last WC and I think his game translates better to the NHL than Morozov's because Malkin doesn't seem to be afraid to put himself in the good ice where guys get hit. The last 2 WJC were on the small NA ice and although he was shut out this year in the final game he did not appear to be a timid little girl like the Ice Princess.


Geesh, where have you been?
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Postby Draftnik on Wed Feb 01, 2006 4:42 pm

Huselius is an interesting case study. I watch many of the Flames games on CI and the guy is not afraid to go into the slot and pay the price for his goals. I've always considered him more lazy than timid. Sutter is the perfect coach for a guy like that because he will make or break his career. He will make Huselius accountable for every shift he takes. So far Huselius seems to be responding to the tough love. Look at the stats:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/players/2131/career;_ylt=AguO2fR9KSC4jWr.NKrrLKdivLYF

If you look how Huselius' shooting % went down over the years in FLA and now is back up in Calgary it is a factor of where he is on the ice when he is taking his shots.

Morozov never played in high traffic areas and he never had possession of the puck in shooting areas. If you look at his stats he never averaged 2 shots on goal per game. The guy does not have the hunger and passion it takes to be an NHL goal scorer. Real Russian goal scorers like Ovechkin and Kovalchuk average 4-5 SOG per game.
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Postby Mad City Mike on Wed Feb 01, 2006 4:49 pm

rananda wrote:huselius and the other guys i mentioned would put up points w lemieux and kovalev. THATS WHY THEYRE CONSIDERED GOOD PLAYERS. players like fico fata and ryan malone and 2005 marck recchi and 2005 john leclair wont. THATS WHY THEYRE CONSIDERED CRAPPY PLAYERS. youve made my point for me.


So I guess you're saying Warren Young is a good player then. Heck, he had a 40-goal season playing with 66. Just because a guy racks up points playing with a superstar does not make him a good player.
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Postby rananda on Wed Feb 01, 2006 5:05 pm

really, the time in nj where morozov one timed a pp goal from the slot (assist lemieux) and the time in san hose where morozov corraled a lemieux rebound and out it in from the slot (after famously lemieux told morozov to just go to the net and that he'd find him), these are not examples of him going to the scoring areas? these are just examples of that short stint in 01-02 where they played together for a few games (i remember it well). what about the beginning of 02-03 where morozov was the player in fron the net on the pp and the pens had the best pp in the league (kovy and lemieux on half boards, straka and tarnstrom on points). he was living in the traffic areas on that pp.

please dont tell me that huselius goes to traffic areas any more than morozov. next youre gonna tell me that val bure in calgary went to traffic areas more than morozov. then youre going to tell me val bure sucked in calgary.

and i have never seen warren young play, but yes, anyone who can score 40 goals in the nhl, playing w lemieux or not, is a good player. do you think that matt bradley or k. koltsov or 2005 leclair could score 40 in a year playing w lemieux and gretzky. i dont. i know morozov could score loads though.
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Postby rananda on Wed Feb 01, 2006 5:07 pm

datsyuk averages less than 2 sog per game. he's a pretty good goal scorer. what was that you said about russian goal scorers?
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Postby Jesse on Wed Feb 01, 2006 5:28 pm

rananda wrote:datsyuk averages less than 2 sog per game. he's a pretty good goal scorer. what was that you said about russian goal scorers?


Datsyuk plays a much more intense game, as well.

Morozov doesn't do half the work he does.
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Postby Draftnik on Wed Feb 01, 2006 5:40 pm

Datsyuk

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/players/2680/career;_ylt=AguO2fR9KSC4jWr.NKrrLKdivLYF

Morozov

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/players/1667/career;_ylt=AguO2fR9KSC4jWr.NKrrLKdivLYF

Datsyuk shoots much better than Morozov. For his career he is 50% better and the last 2 years even better than that. Datsyuk also is approaching 2 SOG per game in this, his 4th NHL season. He is on pace for ~ 30 goals again, the 2nd time in his 4 NHL seasons. Morozov never approached 30 goals in 7 NHL seasons. Why would you expect him to do it in his 8th? Based on his career numbers, Morozov would have to shoot ~ 240 times, or ~ 3 SOG per game to reach 30 goals. His career average is 1.48 SOG per game. It is unrealistic to expect the Ice Princess to increase his shot output by 100% in his 8th NHL season. 8th year NHL guys are not in the career zone where their output suddenly doubles.
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Postby rananda on Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:03 pm

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