Could we be witnessing....

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Could we be witnessing....

Postby Mountaineer on Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:32 am

MAF's rise to prominence? He's been brilliant for the past couple of games, and looks to be living up to the expectations that have been placed on him as a former number-one pick. The only thing he's been lacking is consistency, but the same could be said for virtually every young goaltender. But it's only a matter of time until he finds that consistency, and it looks to me as if that time has come.

Go Pens!!!!!!
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Re: Could we be witnessing....

Postby Rychster on Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:58 am

Mountaineer wrote:MAF's rise to prominence? He's been brilliant for the past couple of games, and looks to be living up to the expectations that have been placed on him as a former number-one pick. The only thing he's been lacking is consistency, but the same could be said for virtually every young goaltender. But it's only a matter of time until he finds that consistency, and it looks to me as if that time has come.

Go Pens!!!!!!


I agree. He is so young still. He will be fine.

On a side note, while watching the DVD classic series 1989 Playoff game against the Flyers and game 4 of the 1992 SC finals against the Blackhawks, I noticed that Tommy Barrasso was really not butterflying too much like he was labeled as being. He always was slow in getting down spreading his legs leaving open a gaping 5-hole not to mention is slow lateral movement from post to post. MAF clearly has better natural ability than Tommy boy ever had. He just needs experience.
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Re: Could we be witnessing....

Postby Draftnik on Sun Mar 19, 2006 12:55 pm

Rychster wrote:I agree. He is so young still. He will be fine.

On a side note, while watching the DVD classic series 1989 Playoff game against the Flyers and game 4 of the 1992 SC finals against the Blackhawks, I noticed that Tommy Barrasso was really not butterflying too much like he was labeled as being. He always was slow in getting down spreading his legs leaving open a gaping 5-hole not to mention is slow lateral movement from post to post. MAF clearly has better natural ability than Tommy boy ever had. He just needs experience.


Tom Barrasso entered the NHL straight out of High School and won the Vezina trophy as an 18/19 year old. His immediate brilliance runs counter to every argument used to justify MAF's less than stellar NHL career to date. I'm not trying to criticize MAF, but I've seen him compared to Barrasso and Brodeur on this board the past few days and people talk as if it is a forgone conclusion he will eclipse guys with 300/400 NHL wins, Vezina trophies, Stanley Cups, etc. There are plenty of talented goalies that never reached the lofty heights in NHL history those 2 guys reside in.

Barrasso pitched a shutout and stole crucial game 3 to seal the series the previous Blackhawk game in 92. He and other great goalies of his generation made their bones by making important saves at crucial times in pressure packed games. Barrasso will always be remembered for that and his failures to do so in 93 and 96. NHL goaltending changed radically in the mid-late 90s based on GAA and Save % becoming much better than any era in NHL history. Barrasso successfully made the jump and posted one of the best seasons in the entire NHL in 97/98. That said, you could probably take a low level 05/06 NHL goalie and he would have better skills than Barrasso and other goalies of the late 80s/early 90s. Compare them to all time NHL greats of the 50s/60s/70s and it is comical.
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I have seen this guy play herew in wbs the past two years.

Postby joeypens on Sun Mar 19, 2006 2:22 pm

this year he play at a level I was vey impressed with, and lead the team to that 21-1-1 mark. Yes dany was also solid this year, but marc was awesome.

He can be the main guy hwo brings the first calder cup to wbs.
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Postby guiner on Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:36 pm

I think we are witnessing the normal progress of development. He won't be crowned the leagues top goalie by years end which is somewhat implied in the "rise to prominance." He'll have some weak games and streaks but they will become fewer and further between as he continues to mature and develop.

g
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Re: Could we be witnessing....

Postby ExPatriatePen on Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:42 pm

Draftnik wrote:That said, you could probably take a low level 05/06 NHL goalie and he would have better skills than Barrasso and other goalies of the late 80s/early 90s.


100% agree. Goalies today are much bettter than the goalies of the late 70's thru the late 90's.

Draftnik wrote:Compare them to all time NHL greats of the 50s/60s/70s and it is comical.


I hope you mean comical in the sense that the goalies of the 50's and 60's were better... remember the differences in equipment. Hell, many of the goalies of the early 50's were still playing with newspapers stuffed behind their pads for protection.

The atheleticism and toughness of the goalies of the 50's and 60's were much better than those of the modern era.
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Re: Could we be witnessing....

Postby The Snapshot on Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:52 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:The atheleticism and toughness of the goalies of the 50's and 60's were much better than those of the modern era.


Toughness...yes....but athleticism?? THere is not a goalie that played in the 50's a 60's that could play in today's NHL, athletically, even with the new equipment.

Gump Worsely in the NHL today?

It's impossible to compare eras directly, but I don't think there was an NHL forward or D from those eras that skated as well as 4th liners in the current era.

Even Booby Orr, Yvan Cornoyer, Henri Richard, Eddie Shack, Bobby Hull etc. would struggle to keep up with their skills from that era if they didn't improve. You can argue that they would have been as dominant in today's era if they had received the same training, diet, etc. as they were coming up, but you only have to watch a few tapes of their games to see the difference in edgework, speed and shooting the puck.
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Re: Could we be witnessing....

Postby Goalie on Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:59 pm

Draftnik wrote:Tom Barrasso entered the NHL straight out of High School and won the Vezina trophy as an 18/19 year old. His immediate brilliance runs counter to every argument used to justify MAF's less than stellar NHL career to date. I'm not trying to criticize MAF, but I've seen him compared to Barrasso and Brodeur on this board the past few days and people talk as if it is a forgone conclusion he will eclipse guys with 300/400 NHL wins, Vezina trophies, Stanley Cups, etc. There are plenty of talented goalies that never reached the lofty heights in NHL history those 2 guys reside in.

Barrasso pitched a shutout and stole crucial game 3 to seal the series the previous Blackhawk game in 92. He and other great goalies of his generation made their bones by making important saves at crucial times in pressure packed games. Barrasso will always be remembered for that and his failures to do so in 93 and 96. NHL goaltending changed radically in the mid-late 90s based on GAA and Save % becoming much better than any era in NHL history. Barrasso successfully made the jump and posted one of the best seasons in the entire NHL in 97/98. That said, you could probably take a low level 05/06 NHL goalie and he would have better skills than Barrasso and other goalies of the late 80s/early 90s. Compare them to all time NHL greats of the 50s/60s/70s and it is comical.


If Fluery reaches the level of Broduer/Barrasso he would be one of the all time greats, his career would not be a failure if he does not reach that level. He could have a very good career and be very successful but not be on that level.

Does he have the natural ability to get to that level? I think so but like you said others have as well and not reached that level. It will be up to him to get to that level and the teams he plays with in his career will also dictate that. If he does not play with championship caliber teams to win a Cup then it will be tough for him to be considered on that level.

Then again this discussion is very premature, he is 21 years old and has a long way to go. He has without a doubt shown flashes of being an elite goalie but he has also showed the inconsistency that comes with youth and at times has shown the wear and tear of playing behind a team that does not always give him adequete help.
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Re: Could we be witnessing....

Postby ExPatriatePen on Sun Mar 19, 2006 3:59 pm

The Snapshot wrote:It's impossible to compare eras directly, but I don't think there was an NHL forward or D from those eras that skated as well as 4th liners in the current era.

Even Booby Orr, Yvan Cornoyer, Henri Richard, Eddie Shack, Bobby Hull etc. would struggle to keep up with their skills from that era if they didn't improve. You can argue that they would have been as dominant in today's era if they had received the same training, diet, etc. as they were coming up, but you only have to watch a few tapes of their games to see the difference in edgework, speed and shooting the puck.


Snapshot, I respect your opinion... but I vehemently disagree... I'd love someone to dress todays stars in the equipment of the 50's and see how well they perform.

Have you ever been to the hockey hall of fame? The equipment from the 50's was 'stone age' no composite sticks, the skates stunk, the pads were thin and sub standard, no helmets so you were less inclined to stick your head in... etc...
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Re: Could we be witnessing....

Postby Goalie on Sun Mar 19, 2006 4:01 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
The Snapshot wrote:It's impossible to compare eras directly, but I don't think there was an NHL forward or D from those eras that skated as well as 4th liners in the current era.

Even Booby Orr, Yvan Cornoyer, Henri Richard, Eddie Shack, Bobby Hull etc. would struggle to keep up with their skills from that era if they didn't improve. You can argue that they would have been as dominant in today's era if they had received the same training, diet, etc. as they were coming up, but you only have to watch a few tapes of their games to see the difference in edgework, speed and shooting the puck.


Snapshot, I respect your opinion... but I vehemently disagree... I'd love someone to dress todays stars in the equipment of the 50's and see how well they perform.


But then you also have to give the players the equipment of that era and take the exercise bikes and weight training away from everyone. Its impossible to compare because of how much has changed over the years.
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Re: Could we be witnessing....

Postby The Snapshot on Sun Mar 19, 2006 5:05 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:Have you ever been to the hockey hall of fame? The equipment from the 50's was 'stone age' no composite sticks, the skates stunk, the pads were thin and sub standard, no helmets so you were less inclined to stick your head in... etc...


I LOVE the HHOF. Awesome place. The equipment was why I said I agreed that they might have been tougher. I mean, I know that it had to hurt to make certain saves, but the puck stayed on the ice more and the shots were not nearly as hard.

I was speaking only to the athlecticism part of your post. The goalies of today are so much quicker and more athletic.

I didn't make that comment to denigrate the goalies of past eras, because it is never fair. It's like comparing Jesse Owens to todays world-class sprinters. Even in that sport, where shoes are the only equipment, training techiniques, diet, supplements and more make the comparison pointless.

Within the confines of historical significance, Jesse Owens changed his sport and in many respects, the world. He could never have beaten Michael Johnson though, nor does it really matter.
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Re: Could we be witnessing....

Postby Ginger on Sun Mar 19, 2006 5:17 pm

Goalie wrote:
But then you also have to give the players the equipment of that era and take the exercise bikes and weight training away from everyone. Its impossible to compare because of how much has changed over the years.


I agree too. I watch old Stanley Cup games & I'm always amazed that 'jeez, they're kinda slowish' or 'that was a good move compared to the rest of the team, but not compared to now'.

It's evolution really. The players then, even at Mario & Wayne's rookie era thought nothing of going for steak & fries after a game. And smoking wasn't frowned on either. It was a different live style as well as the heavier bulky equipment then. Could they have been even better than they were with better eating habits & training with more knowledgable trainers? We'll never know. It's the same as arguing that other question 'would Mario been better than Wayne if...'
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Postby Draftnik on Sun Mar 19, 2006 5:26 pm

During the summer I watch many old time hockey games on NHL Network, Leafs TV, ESPN Classic Canada, etc. As late as the early 90s players routinely beat goalies with shots from above the top of the circles. The athleticism of all hockey players was poor back then compared to today's players, but you can say that about any sport. The technique for NHL goalies improved radically IMO in the mid 90s. Goalies are much more aggressive today coming out and cutting down the angles shooters have. Many goals we consider bad today were considered part of the game 15 years ago.

I hope MAF can reach lofty heights to match his physical skills, but it is incredibly premature and out of context to compare him to all time greats and to compare his skills to players from a previous generation.
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Postby NIN on Sun Mar 19, 2006 5:38 pm

He was alittle bit mean and that is when he is at his best. When he is taking shots with the blade at players around his net that shows he is into the game and getting good and pissed. When he is in that mode he is as good or better then any goalie I have ever watched play. As he matures he will maintina that intensity and focus and perhaps even one day be as mentally tough as Broduer and Roy are.

TO me that is the real secret to being a great goalie, the mental focus. The more he plays in the NHL the more he will gain that focus and I think if you combine that with his unlimited talent you have a guy who can win a lot of hockey games. The fact that he has won 10 with the likes of Jackman, Whitney, Cross, Orpik, Odelin, Poapst, Cairns, and Gonchar to name a few shows how good a goalie he is already.
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