Gonchar Asessment

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Gonchar Asessment

Postby Shinoix on Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:53 pm

I sat back tonight and thought about this as I watched Gonchar completely give up and barely try tonight.

For people who are getting excited with his play as of late, you're wrong. The only reason he's getting points is because the team is starting to play better and therefore scoring more goals. Defensively he's still terrible and his effort is so inconsistent.

Now people, i want you to think long and hard about this. Gonchar is supposed to be one of the elite offensive defenseman of the league. Right?

Ok, we've seen one nice end to end rush this year to win a game in overtime. Other than that, when he rushes the puck, he pretty much gives up at the blueline and just rolls it in and because he's carried the puck up the ice, all of our forwards had to slow down or stop at the blueline and therefore there is no forecheck.

Secondly, have we seen him spring anyone for a great breakaway pass this year or anything like that? Nope, we haven't.

On to his Power Play production. What exactly does he do better on the PP than other defenseman in the league? He shoots, that's all he does, he shoots! He's horrible for having shots blocked and i'm tired of it. You can see it when he has it in his mind that he's going to shoot, and nothing will change his mind, even if there is a guy in his lane. Someone will slide him the puck and he won't change his mind no matter what is happening. Him and Whitney make the worst decisions on shots. Now, does he pass well on the PP? Not really, him and Sid pretty much play catch, that's about it. I ask again, have you seen him set anyone up point blank this year for a goal? Have you actually seen him create a goal? I can't, and I've watched everygame, and nothing really sticks out.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, he hasn't done anything this year. All of his assists are just rebound assists, nothing to do with setups or creativity. I haven't once this season said, wow when he made a play. I never once said to myself, what a great play by Gonchar, and that's why he's one of the best in the league.

Combine this with his lack of defensive play, lack of effort, defensive lapses, and he's really done nothing all year.

Take a good look at him next game and see what he does really well. See how many times you say, wow, what a great play, or great pass. Colby Armstrong does better things in a game than Gonchar.

No creativity which turn into nice setups, one nice goal and that's all I can remember. No nice passes on the PP like guys like Kaberle or Phaneuf do, nothing, absolutely nothing

I could care less if he's here next year, he does us more hurt than good.

The guy didn't even try tonight, and that's a **** joke! 5 million dollars and you're not even trying? That's offensive to the everyday working man that pays to watch him play.

When I start the see why he's an elite offensive defenseman, I might change my tune, but as of now, he's done zilch.
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Postby Jim on Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:15 pm

Gonchar is worth what he is being paid. He is having a bad year, but I am glad he is signed for 4 more years!
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Postby Reilly on Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:21 pm

until his salary effects the team being able to spend money on other players, no one should care how much he makes right now.
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Postby Shinoix on Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:22 pm

you're joking me right? Tell me exactly what he's done this year besides his one end to end rush.

You can't even think of another nice play that he made!! Offensive defenseman are supposed to be offensive, not just assist collectors off rebounds, and he can't even do that well since he gets so many shots blocked.
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Postby netwolf on Wed Mar 29, 2006 11:33 pm

Can someone explain to me how you can accurately judge someone's effort level beyond a shadow of a doubt by watching a game? On television?
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Postby wondermoose on Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:07 am

He's terrible.

To his defense though, I will say he's got a rocket of a shot from the point, and with someone like John Leclair in front of the net I don't know how his shots aren't making it in the net this year. Bad luck maybe, but still, it doesn't excuse his defense, which be, MIGHT BE, the worst I have ever seen.
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Postby Guido on Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:10 am

Seems like he's been getting mor pucks on net then he was the first 2/3 of the season. Maybe this stint in the Burgh is the best thing for him...forces him to work on the defensive aspect of his game. No, he will never be a great defensive player, but at least that part of his game will be improved...

Also, he's been dishing out hip checks like it's the first of the month!
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Postby jmh70 on Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:11 am

netwolf wrote:Can someone explain to me how you can accurately judge someone's effort level beyond a shadow of a doubt by watching a game? On television?


He is equally lackadaisacal in person, perhaps even moreso.

Gonchar defenders don't have a leg to stand on at this point.
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Postby Shinoix on Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:12 am

he's still not offensive...a good shot from the point doesn't make you offensive

when I see him create and make nice setup passes like other offensive defenseman do, then I'll change my tune...as of now, he does nothing more than any other below avg defenseman in the NHL does.
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Postby Pitts on Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:12 am

Shinoix wrote:you're joking me right? Tell me exactly what he's done this year besides his one end to end rush.

You can't even think of another nice play that he made!! Offensive defenseman are supposed to be offensive, not just assist collectors off rebounds, and he can't even do that well since he gets so many shots blocked.

I believe he is the 2nd leading scorer on the team right now.
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Postby wondermoose on Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:14 am

netwolf wrote:Can someone explain to me how you can accurately judge someone's effort level beyond a shadow of a doubt by watching a game? On television?


Television actually makes his look a lot better than seeing him at the games. He looks even worse when the camera isn't on him. And yes, how you play when you don't have the puck is just important, especially when you're a defenseman.
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Postby netwolf on Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:17 am

wondermoose wrote:
netwolf wrote:Can someone explain to me how you can accurately judge someone's effort level beyond a shadow of a doubt by watching a game? On television?


Television actually makes his look a lot better than seeing him at the games. He looks even worse when the camera isn't on him. And yes, how you play when you don't have the puck is just important, especially when you're a defenseman.


Where in my post did I say he hasn't played badly? I have been to 20-30 games this year and seen every other one on TV. I can tell with reasonable certainty whether someone is playing well or not, but am still not able to accurately gauge a player's effort merely by looking at them. I guess I am not blessed with that ability as others are. :roll:
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Postby Ginger on Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:19 am

So he's tossed in with a team that is young, inexperienced & not clicking, But he's supposed to.

This season has to go down as the worst possible season for just about everyone on it, past & present. With exception to Armstrong & Ouellet. I am sticking to my initial assessment. He came in without confidence & there was nothing here to build it. You can't just watch games on television & tell exactly what a player is doing at all times either. If I've learned anything from going to about 3 games a week, I've learned that.

It was interesting listening to the Canes/Caps commentators earlier as they talked about how hard it actually was for some of the older players to just shove the old system they'd been playing under out of their head & reinvent their game overnight. I immediately thought of Gonchar, who, for all intents had been with one system only before arriving here.
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Postby wondermoose on Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:23 am

netwolf wrote:
wondermoose wrote:
netwolf wrote:Can someone explain to me how you can accurately judge someone's effort level beyond a shadow of a doubt by watching a game? On television?


Television actually makes his look a lot better than seeing him at the games. He looks even worse when the camera isn't on him. And yes, how you play when you don't have the puck is just important, especially when you're a defenseman.


Where in my post did I say he hasn't played badly? I have been to 20-30 games this year and seen every other one on TV. I can tell with reasonable certainty whether someone is playing well or not, but am still not able to accurately gauge a player's effort merely by looking at them. I guess I am not blessed with that ability as others are. :roll:


I have ESP. :shock:

Okay okay, perhaps judging effort isn't the right thing to say. Willingness to learn and improve is though, and he has improved very little this season. I want to see some results, damnit! :evil:
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Postby FallenHero96 on Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:25 am

I have ESPN... does that count?

Hey I actually have ESPN2 as well.... so watch out.


I think if Gonchar didnt get such a big contract, people wouldnt be complaining about him as much. He really hasn't played to expectations, and that is obvious. But I cannot say he has been a total disaster. He has shown offense where some was desperately needed, but he still needs to show more. Call me crazy, but I think he will have a much better year next year.
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Re: Gonchar Asessment

Postby Ben Klingston on Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:33 am

Shinoix wrote:I sat back tonight and thought about this as I watched Gonchar completely give up and barely try tonight.

For people who are getting excited with his play as of late, you're wrong. The only reason he's getting points is because the team is starting to play better and therefore scoring more goals. Defensively he's still terrible and his effort is so inconsistent.


That may be one of the most illogical arguments I've read on here in quite some time. 'The only reason' he is scoring more often is because his team is playing better overall. There's no way there's any chance that he has actually elevated his offensive level of play to be part of the reason that the team's overall play is better. No way. That's impossible.

Shinoix wrote:Now people, i want you to think long and hard about this. Gonchar is supposed to be one of the elite offensive defenseman of the league. Right?


Well, here, you're starting to show some signs of logic. Yes, he is considered as such. Or at least he has been for the last 5 years. This year has obviously hurt that reputation. In the past 3 seasons, Gonchar has finished first, second, and first amongst scoring defensemen. (These were obviuosly his best amongs the last 5 years, but I can't find ranked scoring for the 2 years before them. But his PPG stats are not that much worse (.75 and .74) for those two years than the previous 3 years have been (.77, .81, .85)). So it is safe to say he has earned the title of being an elite offensive dman.

Shinoix wrote:Ok, we've seen one nice end to end rush this year to win a game in overtime. Other than that, when he rushes the puck, he pretty much gives up at the blueline and just rolls it in and because he's carried the puck up the ice, a tll of our forwards hado slow down or stop at the blueline and therefore there is no forecheck.


Do you not think that is the strategy the coaches have decided they want to employ? Do you think he would be QBing the PP if what he was doing was going against what the coaching staff wanted? Gonchar is able to lug the puck through the neutral zone and get it into the opponents end. Not many other people on the team can do that right now. I'm not saying Gonchar is = Kovalev for stickhandling and rushing the puck, but he is one of the best we have right now.

Shinoix wrote:Secondly, have we seen him spring anyone for a great breakaway pass this year or anything like that? Nope, we haven't.


Actually, I have. Not nearly as many as I've seen him make in the past, but I have seen it. Just because you can't recollect a specific breakout pass doesn't mean they aren't happening. I notice a disturbing trend in your logic of equating good play with video highlight type plays. While highlights are usually indicative of good play, good play is not always indicated by highlight plays.

Shinoix wrote:On to his Power Play production. What exactly does he do better on the PP than other defenseman in the league? He shoots, that's all he does, he shoots! He's horrible for having shots blocked and i'm tired of it. You can see it when he has it in his mind that he's going to shoot, and nothing will change his mind, even if there is a guy in his lane. Someone will slide him the puck and he won't change his mind no matter what is happening. Him and Whitney make the worst decisions on shots.


Poor guy can't win. If he chooses his shots too tentatively, he's bad. If he opens up the flood gates and shoots constantly, he's bad. I will agree to a point that I think he overdoes it sometimes and does make bad decisions. In other words, he's forcing it. Imagine that. On a team that has had scoring goals for large stretches this season.


Shinoix wrote:Now, does he pass well on the PP? Not really, him and Sid pretty much play catch, that's about it. I ask again, have you seen him set anyone up point blank this year for a goal? Have you actually seen him create a goal? I can't, and I've watched everygame, and nothing really sticks out.


So, he has to set guys up for point blank shots to be considered productive? Newsflash: Dmen don't really set many guys up from point blank range when the dman is playing point on the PP. The goalie would really have to be out to lunch for that to happen, even if the dman makes a cross-ice diagonal pass from one circle to the opposite post. He generates his points by shots from the point... either going in or by rebounds created by his wicked shot. We've already established that his 45 points in 66 games thus far for .68 PPG is lower than his average over the past 5 years, but of those 45 points, 30 were scored on the power play, or 2/3 of his points, or 67%. His overall production is low, but that is a pretty healthy amount of power play production. The dman with the most power play production this year is Lidstrom, who scored 58% of his total point production (72).

Shinoix wrote:So I guess what I'm trying to say is, he hasn't done anything this year. All of his assists are just rebound assists, nothing to do with setups or creativity. I haven't once this season said, wow when he made a play. I never once said to myself, what a great play by Gonchar, and that's why he's one of the best in the league.


Again, his rebound points are somehow less valuable than a 'highlight' play? I don't know how much you saw Gonchar previously, but he was never a superstar playmaker. Of all his offensive game this year, in my opinion his shot accuracy and selections is the most glaringly subpar compared to the past 5 years. He has not scored nearly as many power play goals this year as in the past. However, it's not like the point shot is his only offensively above average attribute. He has a VERY good sense for hanging back, then sneaking in behind the play, be it on the power play or on a cycle play, etc. I know I have said to myself MANY times 'wow' on this ability. You do notice it much more watching the games in person, I must say.

Shinoix wrote:Combine this with his lack of defensive play, lack of effort, defensive lapses, and he's really done nothing all year.


Well, let's not get started on his defensive play. That is not a subject that is up for debate. He has been very bad. He has always been subpar, but it is glaring this year. Maybe because of early goaltending woes and the overall defensive corp around him. As far as lack of effort, that is a baseless claim. You are not in his head. You do not watch practices. Sometimes watching a player can reveal his level of effort: see Koltsov. But there are other times when a player does not appear to be 'playing hard' when they are, in actuality. See=Mario Lemieux.

Shinoix wrote:Take a good look at him next game and see what he does really well. See how many times you say, wow, what a great play, or great pass. Colby Armstrong does better things in a game than Gonchar.


I have, I do, and I will continue to see him do good things. Increasingly over the past month or so. That's not to say I don't see him do bad things... offensively and defensively. As far as the Bird doing better things, well, duh. Colby has been arguably the best player on the team the past couple weeks, maybe other than Sid. Armstrong has done more to help the team than Gonchar has, admittedly.

That's enough.

Yes, he's had a bad year. Below his previously elite level of offensive play, below his previously below-average level of defensive play. It's called an outlier to the data set. Is there a guarantee that his elite years aren't behind him and he will return to that status? No, there's not. But there's reason to believe that he can produce at, or close to, that elite level again. He's overpaid at 5 million a year, and it especially hurts when he's having a bad year. That's the real reason I think most people focus on him so much. Sergei Gonchar is this year's goat. Plain and simple.

I'm just happy to be able to see improvements, slowly but surely, in his game, in the hope that the remaining contract doesn't continue to drag the team down.
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Postby FallenHero96 on Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:38 am

Ben Klingston (dum de dum dum)........... Novelist.

Nice post. :D
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Postby Pitts on Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:43 am

ziggystardust wrote:
Pitts wrote:
Shinoix wrote:you're joking me right? Tell me exactly what he's done this year besides his one end to end rush.

You can't even think of another nice play that he made!! Offensive defenseman are supposed to be offensive, not just assist collectors off rebounds, and he can't even do that well since he gets so many shots blocked.

I believe he is the 2nd leading scorer on the team right now.


thats all the proof I need!
Sign that man up for 4 more years!

..oh... oh wait. no need!
YAY! lucky us!

Well, someone asked! Palffy had to quit and Recchi had to be traded for that to happen, but hey, it did! :D
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Postby supermario on Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:51 am

I can't stand gonchar. Not once have I seen him dominate a game like a Niedermeyer, or Lidstrom. He's getting big money and he's a joke of a defenceman. He absolutly brutal defensivly, crappy offensively, and as soft as a rotten banana. It pains me to think that I've got to sit down and what that goof for the next four years. The biggest question that I have about gonchar is when am I gonna see him go all out? Does anyone actually know how fast he can really skate? I'm not sure I've ever seen it. Just pure crap.
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Postby netwolf on Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:53 am

I don't know what expectations were, but since the Olympic break the only part of Gonchar's game that isn't in line with his past play is goal production. He was never good defensively, he never lugged the puck a lot and he's bee more of s hooter than a passer. I'm not going to bash the guy for exhibiting the same deficiencies he's always had or because the guy who signed him had a different idea of what his game was like than the player himself did.
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Postby Pitts on Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:56 am

supermario wrote:I can't stand gonchar. Not once have I seen him dominate a game like a Niedermeyer, or Lidstrom.

That's never been and never will be his game.
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Postby netwolf on Thu Mar 30, 2006 1:51 am

ziggystardust wrote:
netwolf wrote:I don't know what expectations were, but since the Olympic break the only part of Gonchar's game that isn't in line with his past play is goal production. He was never good defensively, he never lugged the puck a lot and he's bee more of s hooter than a passer. I'm not going to bash the guy for exhibiting the same deficiencies he's always had or because the guy who signed him had a different idea of what his game was like than the player himself did.



I will bash Gonchar, patrick, Mario.... everyone.

they all stink.


Careful, last time I checked Melichar is part of "everyone." :wink:

Seriously though, if this team irritates you as much as it seems, why do you keep watching? Are you one of those people that isn't happy unless you're unhappy?
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Postby Kicksave on Thu Mar 30, 2006 2:19 am

netwolf wrote:Seriously though, if this team irritates you as much as it seems, why do you keep watching? Are you one of those people that isn't happy unless you're unhappy?


You know Major League...the fan (Randy Quaid) that was in the outfield that kept saying that they stunk and kept riding Rick Vaughn until the very end, when they were about to win the pennant? Yea, that’s ziggystardust.
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Postby Kicksave on Thu Mar 30, 2006 4:04 am

ziggystardust wrote:
Kicksave wrote:
netwolf wrote:Seriously though, if this team irritates you as much as it seems, why do you keep watching? Are you one of those people that isn't happy unless you're unhappy?


You know Major League...the fan (Randy Quaid) that was in the outfield that kept saying that they stunk and kept riding Rick Vaughn until the very end, when they were about to win the pennant? Yea, that’s ziggystardust.


I applaud everyone on the team who plays well - Sid, Armstrong, Melichar, Koltsov, Rita/Hilbert, Talbot, Ouellet on occassion... this is a last place team. And there is a reason for that - I will not ignore the reasons and I will voice my discontent whenever I see fit. Is that so bad?


Yes, when it seems like its 100% of the time
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Postby Mango Salsa on Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:54 am

Personally I would be doing everything in my power to unload Gonchar's contract ASAP. I would even give a team another player just to take him off our hands.

I find myself talking to him during the games "Look out, Sergei, you almost touched that guy!" or "Dear God, don't get too close, he might have a disease or something!" That's it, reach out with your stick, maybe he'll fall down or something.

I think part of his problem is that MT leaves him out for the entire Power Play then he has nothing left. I think he had around 25 min of ice time last night.

What I don't understand is how that clueless mofo gets anywhere near the ice during a penalty kill.
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