Gonchar Asessment

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he is what he is

Postby penny lane on Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:31 am

Never liked this signing, just didn't. He succeeded in Wash DC only;
with the CAPS defensive minded team. Craig Patrick brought him to
Pittsburgh to do something, run the power play ... skate with the puck.
That's on CP for not remembering Peter Bondra did that. :shock:

It is amazing that S Gonchar gets a free pass that he does not
even have to be responsible defensively. Everybody accepts but
on the darn PP he's suppose to be at his best on the blueline and
I haven't seen it. I'm not talking just about the points, I mean
little things keeping the puck in the zone...showing an urgency
to keep puck in the zone. Be wary of poke checks, cut down on
them while on the PP. And again if Gonchar is elite NHL player
he should be able to elevate/enhance teammates around him.

Gonchar has a pedigree that he can perform but he was a misfit for
this team. Obviously, just one person's opinion. 8)
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Postby Jim on Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:49 am

Shinoix wrote:you're joking me right? Tell me exactly what he's done this year besides his one end to end rush.

You can't even think of another nice play that he made!! Offensive defenseman are supposed to be offensive, not just assist collectors off rebounds, and he can't even do that well since he gets so many shots blocked.


Boy... I type "He's having a bad year" and you come back with this? Wow.
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Postby Jim on Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:50 am

jmh70 wrote:onchar defenders don't have a leg to stand on at this point.


Actually we have his entire career to stand on. Beyond saying that this year, and this year ONLY, is an enigma in his career... Gonchar bashers don't have a leg to stand on.

Cough
Last edited by Jim on Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Jim on Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:51 am

Pitts wrote: believe he is the 2nd leading scorer on the team right now.


Darn it Pitts... stop bring facts into it!!!
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Re: he is what he is

Postby Jim on Thu Mar 30, 2006 9:00 am

penny lane wrote:Never liked this signing, just didn't. He succeeded in Wash DC only;
with the CAPS defensive minded team. Craig Patrick brought him to
Pittsburgh to do something, run the power play ... skate with the puck.
That's on CP for not remembering Peter Bondra did that.


Odd that in 40 or so games that I saw in DC... I recall Gonchar carrying the puck a good deal... odd...


penny lane wrote:I'm not talking just about the points, I mean
little things keeping the puck in the zone...showing an urgency
to keep puck in the zone.


HA! Name ONE (save Francis) Penguin in the last 10 years that did that! The Penguins are HORRIBLE at keeping the puck in the zone. We wouldn't know what to do with ourselves if we had a player that would do that on any sort of a regular basis.
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Postby DayWalker on Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:56 am

I can agree that Gonchar's play, for the most part, has clearly been sub-par this season. But then again, I am loathe to ever suggest that a player is dogging it out there or isn't trying.

That said, I believe he has played much better of late, particularly on a wretched team, surrounded by generally wretched players. Surely the current make-up (and previous make-up) of the team has SOMETHING to do with his diminished production as compared to previous years, right?

Given his pedigree and past performance (in the offensive end at least), I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and write off this season. Because of his salary, it is unlikely that he will be moved, so as Penguins fans, we best hope that this season was indeed an aberration and that he can improve his play next season...
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Re: he is what he is

Postby Pitts on Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:59 am

Jim wrote:
penny lane wrote:I'm not talking just about the points, I mean
little things keeping the puck in the zone...showing an urgency
to keep puck in the zone.


HA! Name ONE (save Francis) Penguin in the last 10 years that did that! The Penguins are HORRIBLE at keeping the puck in the zone. We wouldn't know what to do with ourselves if we had a player that would do that on any sort of a regular basis.

Larry Murphy - the best at the point
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Postby Shinoix on Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:23 am

Klingston, I didn't realize the size of the Chubby you had for Gonchar, wow.

I'm sorry if I offended you and your man love for him. WOW.

He's awful, plain and simple. You don't get labelled an elite offensive defenseman because you can put your shot on net and other get the rebounds.

As far as making nice passes and setting guys up...you claim no defenseman does that? Maybe you should watch Kaberle, Lidstrom, or Neidermayer! Those guys make nice passes on the PP and 5 on 5. They're O F F E N S I V E. Even if they were weak defensively, you could put up with it because you know every once in a while they're going to create a chance, make a nice pass, or rush the puck further than the blue line.

He's a joke, an absolute joke. He doesn't try, he doesn't skate hard, he's mister poke check, mister turn the puck over....the best part this year is when he had a one on one, and the guy dumped it in past him..Gonchar then turned around to skate after it, except he turned AWAY from the side the puck was on.....WHAT? Bantam kids know better than that....WHy did he do that? Because he didn't want to get hit! He had no urgency to get the puck, only to avoid any physical contact. The TSN crew was ALL over him for that one...they were almost laughing at him.

I'd rather see Richard Litner ;)
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Postby DayWalker on Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:31 am

Shinoix wrote:Klingston, I didn't realize the size of the Chubby you had for Gonchar, wow.

I'm sorry if I offended you and your man love for him. WOW.

He's awful, plain and simple. You don't get labelled an elite offensive defenseman because you can put your shot on net and other get the rebounds.

As far as making nice passes and setting guys up...you claim no defenseman does that? Maybe you should watch Kaberle, Lidstrom, or Neidermayer! Those guys make nice passes on the PP and 5 on 5. They're O F F E N S I V E. Even if they were weak defensively, you could put up with it because you know every once in a while they're going to create a chance, make a nice pass, or rush the puck further than the blue line.

He's a joke, an absolute joke. He doesn't try, he doesn't skate hard, he's mister poke check, mister turn the puck over....the best part this year is when he had a one on one, and the guy dumped it in past him..Gonchar then turned around to skate after it, except he turned AWAY from the side the puck was on.....WHAT? Bantam kids know better than that....WHy did he do that? Because he didn't want to get hit! He had no urgency to get the puck, only to avoid any physical contact. The TSN crew was ALL over him for that one...they were almost laughing at him.

I'd rather see Richard Litner ;)


One can attempt to assess a player's performance, but I always think it is folly to assert that a player "doesn't try" or "doesn't skate hard." In the case of Gonchar, I see ZERO evidence for that assertion. He may be agonizingly soft at times, but that does NOT mean he doesn't try.

I have watched the Penguins all year and I have seen Gonchar make a number of fine passes and fine plays and carry the puck past the blue line on numerous occassions (His reluctance in doing so more may not entirely be his call, either.) That he has not made as many as we would have liked is indeed disappointing, but to suggest that he has not/cannot make those plays at all is not rooted in fact...

And again, I do contend that Gonchar's play, as a whole, has improved steadily as the season as progressed, despite the utter paucity of talent on the team...
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Postby Reilly on Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:55 am

IF this team had Nick Lidstrom, they'd still suck. The reason Gonchar is playing horribly is because he plays with horrible players.
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Postby The Snapshot on Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:08 pm

Shinoix wrote:
He's awful, plain and simple. You don't get labelled an elite offensive defenseman because you can put your shot on net and other get the rebounds.


You get labeled an "elite" offensive defenseman by doing this:

156 goals and 316 assists for a total of 472 points in736 career NHL games. He ranks 13th among defenseman in NHL scoring this year, in what has admitedly been a BAD year for him.

I'm not arguing that I have been satisfied with what I've seen this year, only that when he has played on solid teams in the past he has been a leading minutes guy who drove the offense and powerplay.

He has produced double digits in goals every year except this one since the '98-'99 season, and had only ONE other "full" season in his entire career with less than 10 goals.

I would much prefer to have Lidstrom, Pronger, Redden, Chara, McCabe, Jovonowski, Blake, Vishnovsky, etc. - but the players that Gonchar is really comparable to are guys like Timmonen, Zidlicky, Berard, etc. His offensive numbers are not far off from them (even in a terrible year), and they are not scaring anyone in the corners either.

All I'm saying is that I don't disagree that you have the right to be annoyed by his play, but I believe that he has a lot more Hockey to play for us and as this team improves, his assets will become more important while his deficiencies will be lessened.

I think that when the games still meant something early in the year, he was struggling to adjust. He has played much better since the Olympics - but like it or not I don't think he is the kind of player that shows overt signs of "going all out" like a Max Talbot or Armstrong. His game is more about being smooth than it is about looking like he is trying to break his own neck.

I would agree that he may be the kind of player that lets of the gas just slightly now that this team is going nowhere. If that is something that drives you nuts, I can see why you are p*ssed, but he is not alone in the NHL - being a veteran with a successful resume that finds it hard to get up for these games when they are going nowhere.

Some folks will never accept him because of his style. I'm not sure I can either, but when he was playing against us as a Capital, I don't remember thinking that he was the reason we would beat them.
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Postby DayWalker on Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:09 pm

ziggystardust wrote:
Reilly wrote:IF this team had Nick Lidstrom, they'd still suck. The reason Gonchar is playing horribly is because he plays with horrible players.



Gonchar has ALWAYS played at the level he is now though.


What do you base that on?
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Postby skullman80 on Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:12 pm

ziggystardust wrote:
Reilly wrote:IF this team had Nick Lidstrom, they'd still suck. The reason Gonchar is playing horribly is because he plays with horrible players.



Gonchar has ALWAYS played at the level he is now though.


That's assinine.
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Postby DayWalker on Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:15 pm

ziggystardust wrote:
Jim wrote:
Shinoix wrote:you're joking me right? Tell me exactly what he's done this year besides his one end to end rush.

You can't even think of another nice play that he made!! Offensive defenseman are supposed to be offensive, not just assist collectors off rebounds, and he can't even do that well since he gets so many shots blocked.


Boy... I type "He's having a bad year" and you come back with this? Wow.


He's Andy Delmore with a rep. He's crappier than McCabe. He's Jackman without the stupid desire to throw body checks at center ice. He's a point man, thats it. He is garbage in his own end and defenseman who are garbage in their own end shouldn't make big bucks, period.


Paul Coffey? Phil Housley? Brian Leetch?
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Postby DayWalker on Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:28 pm

ziggystardust wrote:
DayWalker wrote:
ziggystardust wrote:
Jim wrote:
Shinoix wrote:you're joking me right? Tell me exactly what he's done this year besides his one end to end rush.

You can't even think of another nice play that he made!! Offensive defenseman are supposed to be offensive, not just assist collectors off rebounds, and he can't even do that well since he gets so many shots blocked.


Boy... I type "He's having a bad year" and you come back with this? Wow.


He's Andy Delmore with a rep. He's crappier than McCabe. He's Jackman without the stupid desire to throw body checks at center ice. He's a point man, thats it. He is garbage in his own end and defenseman who are garbage in their own end shouldn't make big bucks, period.


Paul Coffey? Phil Housley? Brian Leetch?


lol.
Gonchar stinks.

Jesus lord almighty, watch the man play! he's been terrible for atleast 3 years now!


He doesn't.

I do.

No he doesn't.
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Postby Ben Klingston on Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:53 pm

Shinoix wrote:Klingston, I didn't realize the size of the Chubby you had for Gonchar, wow.

I'm sorry if I offended you and your man love for him. WOW.


No man love or chubby here, but thanks for responding intelligently. I understand the frustration, though, seeing as how most that know what they're talking about completely owned you in this thread. I think I'll go for seconds.

Shinoix wrote:He's awful, plain and simple. You don't get labelled an elite offensive defenseman because you can put your shot on net and other get the rebounds.


No, you don't. I never said you did. I gave you cold, hard numbers for why he is labelled an elite offensive dman.

Shinoix wrote:As far as making nice passes and setting guys up...you claim no defenseman does that?


Can you point out where I made that claim? I said that "Dmen don't really set many guys up from point blank range when the dman is playing point on the PP. The goalie would really have to be out to lunch for that to happen, even if the dman makes a cross-ice diagonal pass from one circle to the opposite post." How does that get generalized down to 'dmen don't make nice passes or set guys up, exactly? Gonchar isn't one for the breakout pass, admittedly, but he's had his fair share of nice passes, especially on the PP, this year. Not anything mind-boggling, but not absent from his repetoire, either.

Shinoix wrote:Maybe you should watch Kaberle, Lidstrom, or Neidermayer! Those guys make nice passes on the PP and 5 on 5. They're O F F E N S I V E. Even if they were weak defensively, you could put up with it because you know every once in a while they're going to create a chance, make a nice pass, or rush the puck further than the blue line.


So they're only offensive if they make nice passes on the PP and 5 on 5? What about if their point shot sucks, or is average? If one can be an offensive dman by simply being a great playmaker, why can't one be an offensive dman by simply having a great shot? (and I'm not admitting that is all Gonchar has) Gonchar makes nice passes from time to time, especially on the PP. It's not as much as the players you name above, but it happens.

Shinoix wrote:He's a joke, an absolute joke. He doesn't try, he doesn't skate hard,


Again, the unobjective 'try hard' crap doesn't cut it for a valid point or argument.


Shinoix wrote:he's mister poke check, mister turn the puck over....the best part this year is when he had a one on one, and the guy dumped it in past him..Gonchar then turned around to skate after it, except he turned AWAY from the side the puck was on.....WHAT? Bantam kids know better than that....WHy did he do that? Because he didn't want to get hit!


I don't know if I'm thinking of the same play you were, but I do remember Gonchar obviously shying away from a hit earlier this year that ended up costing the Pens a goal. That was one of the plays that I was screaming on my couch from. So the point is I agree that Gonchar shies away from physical contact sometimes. Is that a shock? Not really. Knew that about him coming in. Just another part of his subpar defensive play.
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Postby Ben Klingston on Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:54 pm

skullman80 wrote:
ziggystardust wrote:
Reilly wrote:IF this team had Nick Lidstrom, they'd still suck. The reason Gonchar is playing horribly is because he plays with horrible players.



Gonchar has ALWAYS played at the level he is now though.


That's assinine.


That's ziggy.
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Postby Ben Klingston on Thu Mar 30, 2006 7:57 pm

ziggystardust wrote:
skullman80 wrote:
ziggystardust wrote:
Reilly wrote:IF this team had Nick Lidstrom, they'd still suck. The reason Gonchar is playing horribly is because he plays with horrible players.



Gonchar has ALWAYS played at the level he is now though.


That's assinine.



He might have been better offensively, but it came at the expense of defense.


So, you're saying your statement was incorrect, then, right?

ziggystardust wrote:Defenseman MUST first be sound defensively. Unless your name is Orr or Coffey, you can't be this bad in your own end and be worth 1/4 (or even 1/6) of your team's total payroll.


Won't argue with that. You're correct there. IMO Gonchar is overpaid, even if he had played the entire year at his previous career level. He's very good offensively, but his defense does not put him in the same category as the Coffeys of the world.
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Postby jmh70 on Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:11 pm

Let me break it down for those who still think Gonchar is worth $25m:


1) Makes bad decisions consistently. For some reason he thinks he has the skill to carry the puck all the way to the offensive faceoff dots. ~7 out of 10 times he is stripped of the puck and the PP suffers. Even Whitney, a rookie, knows when to get rid of the puck. Sergei's decisions to pinch in are also often wrong.

2) Poor shooting. What happened to the Gonchar that consistently rifled pucks into the roof of the net from the point? Clearly this Gonchar is not the same as the Pens' #55 who misses the net so often.

3) Slow as hell. He tries to carry the puck up ice and constantly gets caught because he's barely moving. Being slow is bad enough, but not realizing it is worse.

4) Most importantly, his production does not make up for his suicidal defending. Gonchar has a grand total of 8 goals and 47 points. I would approximate that, through bad penalties or atrocious defensive decisions, Gonchar has been responsible for at least 30 goals against. In sum, Gonchar is exponentially more of a liability at all times than he is a scoring threat only on the PP.
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Postby Shinoix on Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:17 pm

here , here!~! BRAVO
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Postby Ben Klingston on Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:29 pm

jmh70 wrote:Let me break it down for those who still think Gonchar is worth $25m:


Have I missed where anyone said they thought he was worth $25 mil?
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Postby jmh70 on Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:41 pm

Ben Klingston wrote:
jmh70 wrote:Let me break it down for those who still think Gonchar is worth $25m:


Have I missed where anyone said they thought he was worth $25 mil?


My bad, that statement should read:

"Let me break it down for those who still think Gonchar is worth anything at all:"
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Postby Ben Klingston on Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:50 pm

jmh70 wrote:
Ben Klingston wrote:
jmh70 wrote:Let me break it down for those who still think Gonchar is worth $25m:


Have I missed where anyone said they thought he was worth $25 mil?


My bad, that statement should read:

"Let me break it down for those who still think Gonchar is worth anything at all:"


I know... it's like... I'm sure there weren't any other NHL GMs who were bidding for his services this past offseason. I mean, those guys, who get paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to judge talent and manage teams, don't really know more than we message board yinzers. :roll:
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Postby netwolf on Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:08 am

ziggystardust wrote:And as we all know, GM's never make mistakes.


Does that mean you're a GM then? According to you, you are never wrong either. :P
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Postby Rocco on Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:28 am

ziggystardust wrote:
DayWalker wrote:
ziggystardust wrote:
Jim wrote:
Shinoix wrote:you're joking me right? Tell me exactly what he's done this year besides his one end to end rush.

You can't even think of another nice play that he made!! Offensive defenseman are supposed to be offensive, not just assist collectors off rebounds, and he can't even do that well since he gets so many shots blocked.


Boy... I type "He's having a bad year" and you come back with this? Wow.


He's Andy Delmore with a rep. He's crappier than McCabe. He's Jackman without the stupid desire to throw body checks at center ice. He's a point man, thats it. He is garbage in his own end and defenseman who are garbage in their own end shouldn't make big bucks, period.


Paul Coffey? Phil Housley? Brian Leetch?


lol.
Gonchar stinks.

Jesus lord almighty, watch the man play! he's been terrible for atleast 3 years now!


Yet he was a positive player in +/- in 2002/03 and 03/04. Would you like me to dredge up that quote of yours about how +/- is a good indicator for a defenseman, or do you remember it well enough that it's not necessary?
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