Some poeple are too dumb to know when they have won

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Some poeple are too dumb to know when they have won

Postby NIN on Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:46 pm

From Peters thread...

Peter wrote:I just heard a little bit. Franco Harris is a whore, and Lynn Swann may be using this as a political means to an end, but Mark has no worries using Lynn to keep the pens in town. So vote for Lynn. He also took a shot at LGP.com because some of us said plan B is ok as an alternative in case IoC falls through. And we're all a bunch of non-social dorks who use a message board for our social life. And someone called in (maybe one of us) and said "Funny how you rip on message board posters when you post as well." TO which he replied something like he rarely posts, and just wants to see what the fans are thinking. But he said the Wrestling message boards makes us sound like harvard grads. Wooooooo


Voting for Swann has nothing to do with the arena. Madden told Swann and Santorum that he will support them if they come on his show and support the Pittsburgh First plan (which nobody seems to call it). Everybody wins.

1.Madden gets great ratings because we all want to hear what they have to say, especially if it supports the Penguins cause.

2.They get to convert voters. This is all they care about. They are saying what we want to hear them say so that we will like them and vote for them. Saying that Pittsburgh First will win if we vote for them is just another lie. How can Swann or anybody else make any difference on the board if the fix is on? Or wait, there isnt a fix now? There would be one months time from when Swann is elected to when the license is awarded. What is he going to do? Re-pick the board? Create his own "fix"? Go ahead and vote for whoever you want, just don't pretend it's going to get you the Pittsburgh First plan because it wont.

3. IOC and the Penguins gain valuable support. When you hear high ranking (or would be) officials support the plan, people who want to vote for them will get behind it. This means more public support for the IOC plan. Again, campaign elections are run like a music video. Images, sounds, buy this record, etc.. However, for all of that, it doesnt change the fact that the board IS SET AND THEY WILL DECIDE!

Here is what Madden is missing. HE ALREADY WON. Only he is too dumb to know it! The politicians have done ALOT to help keep the team here because of the pressure they have faced by voters. This contingency plan should not be scoffed at simply because the Pittsburgh First plan is better.

The reality is that it is a BACKUP and not a SUBSTITUTE. Unless there is a fix., I mean there is a fix still right or are we all just morons?

When you go to vote, ask yourself this, "Where was Swann from the beginning of this, where was he when things were there darkest. Why did he come out only right when Randell offered a GOOD BACKUP plan that would make sensible people optimistic?". Then ask yourself,"If Pittsburgh FIrst wins, where was the fix? Why did they create a backup plan if there was a fix?". Then ask yourself,"Why did'nt Swann come up with a backup plan?"

If Swann would have created a plan of his own he would have my vote hands down. So what did he do? He put on his Kerry hunting hat and picked up a pre-shot duck..

Hey, I am just a hockey fan. I want to go to games for the rest of my life because it is one of the few joys that keeps me going. If I thought voting for Swann would gaurentee or even increase the odds of the team staying here I would. I am not as dumb as Madden.
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Postby Draftnik on Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:11 am

Why do you care what somebody else thinks about you?

How would anybody have enough information about somebody from a hockey message board to know about their social life? I don't care what plan is ultimately chosen as long as the Pens win. The only reason IoC threw down with the Pens is because their merits as a stand alone company are less than Harrah's, so they needed to come up with a gimmick to enhance their chances of winning. Every party in this saga from the Pens to the slots bidders to the politicians are pursuing self serving interests.


There is no reason for the Pens to enthusiastically embrace Rendell's plan. It is a starting point for them to negotiate a better deal at the appropriate time.

The political activity on this issue is amazing considering the election is ~ 7 months away and the license will not be awarded for ~ 10-11 months at the earliest.
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Postby NIN on Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:19 am

Draftnik wrote:Why do you care what somebody else thinks about you?

How would anybody have enough information about somebody from a hockey message board to know about their social life? I don't care what plan is ultimately chosen as long as the Pens win. The only reason IoC threw down with the Pens is because their merits as a stand alone company are less than Harrah's, so they needed to come up with a gimmick to enhance their chances of winning. Every party in this saga from the Pens to the slots bidders to the politicians are pursuing self serving interests.


There is no reason for the Pens to enthusiastically embrace Rendell's plan. It is a starting point for them to negotiate a better deal at the appropriate time.

The political activity on this issue is amazing considering the election is ~ 7 months away and the license will not be awarded for ~ 10-11 months at the earliest.


Im just tired of this political see-saw that has been created. It's nonsense. YES Pittsburgh First is the best plan. YES Randell and the other Demos should have gotten behind it. DO I need Swann and some bloated disk jockey telling me who I should vote for by retelling the same tale over and over and over again?

The jab at the message baord was week and not offesnive at all. It's just everything else that I find offensive. Thinking that poeple will actually cast their vote for Randell or Swann over the naming rights for s slots casino just shows how much social decay has taken place in our country. Thats what I am offended by.
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Postby Goalie on Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:24 am

NIN wrote:
Draftnik wrote:Why do you care what somebody else thinks about you?

How would anybody have enough information about somebody from a hockey message board to know about their social life? I don't care what plan is ultimately chosen as long as the Pens win. The only reason IoC threw down with the Pens is because their merits as a stand alone company are less than Harrah's, so they needed to come up with a gimmick to enhance their chances of winning. Every party in this saga from the Pens to the slots bidders to the politicians are pursuing self serving interests.


There is no reason for the Pens to enthusiastically embrace Rendell's plan. It is a starting point for them to negotiate a better deal at the appropriate time.

The political activity on this issue is amazing considering the election is ~ 7 months away and the license will not be awarded for ~ 10-11 months at the earliest.


Im just tired of this political see-saw that has been created. It's nonsense. YES Pittsburgh First is the best plan. YES Randell and the other Demos should have gotten behind it. DO I need Swann and some bloated disk jockey telling me who I should vote for by retelling the same tale over and over and over again?

The jab at the message baord was week and not offesnive at all. It's just everything else that I find offensive. Thinking that poeple will actually cast their vote for Randell or Swann over the naming rights for s slots casino just shows how much social decay has taken place in our country. Thats what I am offended by.


I think someone posted about this the other day but I too must have missed the official guidelines for how to determine who to vote for. Last I checked we all have the right to vote and determine what issue we feel is most important. If the issue of who supports which slots proposal is insignificant to you then base your decision on whatever you feel is most important. However you should also realize that the slots issue is very important to others and they may base their vote off of that.
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Postby Draftnik on Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:27 am

Goalie wrote:I think someone posted about this the other day but I too must have missed the official guidelines for how to determine who to vote for. Last I checked we all have the right to vote and determine what issue we feel is most important. If the issue of who supports which slots proposal is insignificant to you then base your decision on whatever you feel is most important. However you should also realize that the slots issue is very important to others and they may base their vote off of that.


Thank you for saying this. Who in the he## has the right to tell me, you, or anybody else what criteria we should use in determining who we vote for.
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Postby NIN on Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:30 am

Goalie wrote:
NIN wrote:
Draftnik wrote:Why do you care what somebody else thinks about you?

How would anybody have enough information about somebody from a hockey message board to know about their social life? I don't care what plan is ultimately chosen as long as the Pens win. The only reason IoC threw down with the Pens is because their merits as a stand alone company are less than Harrah's, so they needed to come up with a gimmick to enhance their chances of winning. Every party in this saga from the Pens to the slots bidders to the politicians are pursuing self serving interests.


There is no reason for the Pens to enthusiastically embrace Rendell's plan. It is a starting point for them to negotiate a better deal at the appropriate time.

The political activity on this issue is amazing considering the election is ~ 7 months away and the license will not be awarded for ~ 10-11 months at the earliest.


Im just tired of this political see-saw that has been created. It's nonsense. YES Pittsburgh First is the best plan. YES Randell and the other Demos should have gotten behind it. DO I need Swann and some bloated disk jockey telling me who I should vote for by retelling the same tale over and over and over again?

The jab at the message baord was week and not offesnive at all. It's just everything else that I find offensive. Thinking that poeple will actually cast their vote for Randell or Swann over the naming rights for s slots casino just shows how much social decay has taken place in our country. Thats what I am offended by.


I think someone posted about this the other day but I too must have missed the official guidelines for how to determine who to vote for. Last I checked we all have the right to vote and determine what issue we feel is most important. If the issue of who supports which slots proposal is insignificant to you then base your decision on whatever you feel is most important. However you should also realize that the slots issue is very important to others and they may base their vote off of that.


What I am saying is that it is irrelivant. Swann said that if he is elected the only thing he can do is voice his opinion to the board. The board will have been set already for months and they would have reveiwed everything for months. What opinion of Swanns can he voice that then that he hasnt already? If I am to beleive that there is a fix then it wont matter because its too late. If I beleive that the board is admirable then it wont matter because his "opinion" wont matter.
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Re: Some poeple are too dumb to know when they have won

Postby netwolf on Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:44 am

NIN wrote:From Peters thread...


Then why didn't you just reply to his post then? You don't get extra points for starting a new thread. Or do you just like seeing your name in the author column? :P

With regards to your topic, I just don't see what the big deal is.

There are still many details of this insurance plan that need to be answered before I would consider it to be viable. Things like:

Who owns the arena? Who operates it? Where does the non-hockey event revenue go? How much say do the Pens have in the construction and design process? I'm sure there are many others.

And even if all of those are answered in the Pens' favor, they are by no means bound to accept it. The future of the team is not settled by any means. If by Madden winning, you mean the Pens are staying put, Madden has n't won anything until a ground is broken and a new leased is signed.

Also, even if those questions have positive answers, there is still plenty to debate as far as the merits of the different plans. Madden or anyone else shouldn't stop talking about the issue just because there appears to be a backup plan in place. The Forest City folks would love for everyone to say "well, it looks like the arena is getting done one way or another, so who cares where the license goes."

The IoC plan is still the best option. The insurance plan doesn't change the fact that downtown development would be better for the city than further development of Station Square.

If Madden is dumb or otherwise annoys you, then here's some advice: don't pay attention. Turn off the radio. Skip over posts about him. He can only bother you if you let him.

Today was the first time I've listend to him or Stan in over a month (Sirius channel 43 - Backspin rocks!) and I tuned in both shows because I knew there would be reaction to the insurance plan. I am not really interested in either host's opinion all that much - was looking for guests and such.
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Postby netwolf on Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:59 am

NIN wrote:What I am saying is that it is irrelivant. Swann said that if he is elected the only thing he can do is voice his opinion to the board. The board will have been set already for months and they would have reveiwed everything for months. What opinion of Swanns can he voice that then that he hasnt already? If I am to beleive that there is a fix then it wont matter because its too late. If I beleive that the board is admirable then it wont matter because his "opinion" wont matter.


Swann's opinion may not be relevant, but only because he does not currently hold an office. The gaming board has solicited the opinions of local elected officials, a point that Rendell and O'Connor seem to be ignorant of, or have conveniently forgotten. That's another reason the IoC plan should go through. There have been almost 30 elected officials that have endorsed the IoC plan. How many have endorsed either of the other two? None that I know of. If the gaming board does consider the opinions of the local politicians and value them as they said, then the IoC should be the front runner.

Additionally, I don't believe the board has reviewed anything yet. If they had reviewed everything it full, the license would be awarded a lot sooner than the December/January predictions out there.
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Re: Some poeple are too dumb to know when they have won

Postby NIN on Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:04 am

netwolf wrote:
NIN wrote:From Peters thread...


Then why didn't you just reply to his post then? You don't get extra points for starting a new thread. Or do you just like seeing your name in the author column? :P

With regards to your topic, I just don't see what the big deal is.

There are still many details of this insurance plan that need to be answered before I would consider it to be viable. Things like:

Who owns the arena? Who operates it? Where does the non-hockey event revenue go? How much say do the Pens have in the construction and design process? I'm sure there are many others.

And even if all of those are answered in the Pens' favor, they are by no means bound to accept it. The future of the team is not settled by any means. If by Madden winning, you mean the Pens are staying put, Madden has n't won anything until a ground is broken and a new leased is signed.

Also, even if those questions have positive answers, there is still plenty to debate as far as the merits of the different plans. Madden or anyone else shouldn't stop talking about the issue just because there appears to be a backup plan in place. The Forest City folks would love for everyone to say "well, it looks like the arena is getting done one way or another, so who cares where the license goes."

The IoC plan is still the best option. The insurance plan doesn't change the fact that downtown development would be better for the city than further development of Station Square.

If Madden is dumb or otherwise annoys you, then here's some advice: don't pay attention. Turn off the radio. Skip over posts about him. He can only bother you if you let him.

Today was the first time I've listend to him or Stan in over a month (Sirius channel 43 - Backspin rocks!) and I tuned in both shows because I knew there would be reaction to the insurance plan. I am not really interested in either host's opinion all that much - was looking for guests and such.


A referred to Peters thread because I got the inspiration for this thread from reading that one. My intention was to take a related topic and break it off into another thread that focuses more on the political rhetoric than the actual plans.

Thats some good advice there but I too want to hear what other poeple think about it. I heard like the first hour or so and alot of poeple said what I was thinking too. Swann is full of it and its irrelevant.

The Penguins media campaign, which of course includes Madden, won because they forced the Demos to came up with a backup plan. All of the political finger pointing worked. Now its time to take a good look at the details and give MM and Sawyer a riddlin or something. For now, they won.

IF IOC is the best plan THEY WILL WIN REGARDLESS. They got the politicians to force applicants to give money to an arena. SO then they let the Republicans chime in and for what? What backup plan did they purpose in all of this?
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Re: Some poeple are too dumb to know when they have won

Postby netwolf on Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:23 am

NIN wrote:he Penguins media campaign, which of course includes Madden, won because they forced the Demos to came up with a backup plan. All of the political finger pointing worked. Now its time to take a good look at the details and give MM and Sawyer a riddlin or something. For now, they won.

IF IOC is the best plan THEY WILL WIN REGARDLESS. They got the politicians to force applicants to give money to an arena. SO then they let the Republicans chime in and for what? What backup plan did they purpose in all of this?


The Pens and their supporters won nothing today. I honestly believe they want nothing to do with a backup plan. They asked for help before and were basically told to jiti libra suul by everyone they talked to. They were told they had to do it on their own. They did, and only then did anyone want to talk about alternate financing.

The insurance plan may or may not be acceptable, but it is obviously not as good for the Pens. As I said in an earlier post today, free beats almost free all the time.

All this insurance play did was possibly offset one of the main benefits of the IoC proposal in some people's minds. That doesn't help the Pens whatsoever and as I also said before, there are no guarantees the Pens are staying even with the insurance plan in place.

If the IoC plan wins, then the Pens stay. Right now, that is the only guarantee in all of this.
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Re: Some poeple are too dumb to know when they have won

Postby NIN on Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:39 am

netwolf wrote:
NIN wrote:he Penguins media campaign, which of course includes Madden, won because they forced the Demos to came up with a backup plan. All of the political finger pointing worked. Now its time to take a good look at the details and give MM and Sawyer a riddlin or something. For now, they won.

IF IOC is the best plan THEY WILL WIN REGARDLESS. They got the politicians to force applicants to give money to an arena. SO then they let the Republicans chime in and for what? What backup plan did they purpose in all of this?


The Pens and their supporters won nothing today. I honestly believe they want nothing to do with a backup plan. They asked for help before and were basically told to jiti libra suul by everyone they talked to. They were told they had to do it on their own. They did, and only then did anyone want to talk about alternate financing.

The insurance plan may or may not be acceptable, but it is obviously not as good for the Pens. As I said in an earlier post today, free beats almost free all the time.

All this insurance play did was possibly offset one of the main benefits of the IoC proposal in some people's minds. That doesn't help the Pens whatsoever and as I also said before, there are no guarantees the Pens are staying even with the insurance plan in place.

If the IoC plan wins, then the Pens stay. Right now, that is the only guarantee in all of this.


Will see what they say in a few weeks after they have reveiwed it. You seem to think that agreeing to a backup plan is conceeding defeat. I think its good business sense, and if staying in the city was their whole prupose for running for a license in the first place, then it would make ZERO sense to ignore a backup plan that works.

Yes we all know Pittsburgh Fist is the best plan. A backup plan doesnt make the other two applicants look any better. If the Pittsburgh First plan is such a no brainer than why is everyone so worried that it wont get picked? Is it because of the alleged fix? Wouldnt a backup plan get the Penguins what they originally set out to get? Or were they just interested in something other than staying in the city?

All I know is that I will be pissed off at the Pens if this backup plan turns out to be legit and they turn their noses at it. This wasnt suppose to be about the license, this was suppose to be about staying in the city. IOC are the ones that have to worry about the license and if they are removing their gag order then that tells you that they think that the backup plan has nothing to do with who will be awarded the license.

Thats how it should be.
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Re: Some poeple are too dumb to know when they have won

Postby netwolf on Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:09 am

NIN wrote:Will see what they say in a few weeks after they have reveiwed it. You seem to think that agreeing to a backup plan is conceeding defeat. I think its good business sense, and if staying in the city was their whole prupose for running for a license in the first place, then it would make ZERO sense to ignore a backup plan that works.

Yes we all know Pittsburgh Fist is the best plan. A backup plan doesnt make the other two applicants look any better. If the Pittsburgh First plan is such a no brainer than why is everyone so worried that it wont get picked? Is it because of the alleged fix? Wouldnt a backup plan get the Penguins what they originally set out to get? Or were they just interested in something other than staying in the city?

All I know is that I will be pissed off at the Pens if this backup plan turns out to be legit and they turn their noses at it. This wasnt suppose to be about the license, this was suppose to be about staying in the city. IOC are the ones that have to worry about the license and if they are removing their gag order then that tells you that they think that the backup plan has nothing to do with who will be awarded the license.

Thats how it should be.


Endorsing the backup plan would be the equivalent of the Pens going to IoC and saying "Well, we got what we wanted. Good luck with the license, I hope it works out well for you." One of the biggest points of the IoC plan is the new arena and the Pens endorsement of the backup plan would basically take that out of the equation. Alienating a business partner like that would be anything but a good business move.

Furthermore, why should the Pens say anything about accepting it now? For one, all of the details are not yet known. No point in agreeing to something that hasn't been fully explained. Second, there's no benefit in them doing so. Agreeing to it now takes Rendell's feet out of the fire, and belive me he's feeling some heat. Why else would he have done a complete 180 on his arena funding stance? Did his heart grown like the grinch?

On the other hand, they could lose out by agreeing now. If they say the'd take the deal, there is less pressure to go with IoC, which they would obviously prefer.

To your questions, there is a lot of talk about the fix. Even the last mayor commented about that on his way out before someone got him to suddenly do an about-face on his comments. And no, the backup plan does not get them everything they want. It would get them an arena, but at a higher cost to them over the IoC plan. The insurance plan calls for something like $8 milllion up front, then approximately $4 mill annually for 30 years. Under the IoC plan, I think the Pens would pay approximately $3 mill per year to the SEA.

Also, per today's PG, the other two applicants have not agreed to anything regarding a new arena.
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Re: Some poeple are too dumb to know when they have won

Postby NIN on Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:32 am

Endorsing the backup plan would be the equivalent of the Pens going to IoC and saying "Well, we got what we wanted. Good luck with the license, I hope it works out well for you." One of the biggest points of the IoC plan is the new arena and the Pens endorsement of the backup plan would basically take that out of the equation. Alienating a business partner like that would be anything but a good business move.


From what I have heard, IOC has given the Penguins their good graces to read over the backup plan and decide however they wish. Of course they wont say,"Wow it's better than our plan! We are staying for sure!". It seems to me that IOC is confident that they will win the license because their plan is paid in full BY THEM (at least that's what I am lead to beleive) and not slots revenue. Also, the HIll District developement plan is good for the city.

Furthermore, why should the Pens say anything about accepting it now? For one, all of the details are not yet known. No point in agreeing to something that hasn't been fully explained. Second, there's no benefit in them doing so. Agreeing to it now takes Rendell's feet out of the fire, and belive me he's feeling some heat. Why else would he have done a complete 180 on his arena funding stance? Did his heart grown like the grinch?


Who said they should awnser now? Not me. In fact I have been saying that they have to go over the plan and take weeks to do so. The Penguins will always want IOC to win because it gaurentees them that their ticket sales will be very high because they will be right next to a tremendous attraction. If its over at Station Square and the Hill is still, the hill, they feel that their ticket sales will be too low to stay in town. So the details of plan B are VERY important.

On the other hand, they could lose out by agreeing now. If they say the'd take the deal, there is less pressure to go with IoC, which they would obviously prefer.


Aagin, I do not know why you are making this up. I want the Pens to go over the details. IF it turns out to be legit and only costs them alittle more then they should definately say something positive about it. If they completely reject it then I will be upset with the fact that they have gone from wanting to stay here to wanting everything in the world.
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Postby Peter on Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:17 am

NIN is obsessed with me I think. I didn't even start that other thread. It was Kovyman1127. Stay away NIN. I'll get you a mannequin.

I'm not sure what everyone's problem is. He's just saying this to gain support for IoC. We should all want IoC. Ioc is MUCH BETTER for the penguins. We don't have a lot of money anyway, and with the cap and floor, we will need to spend money. The penguins are much better off keeping that 8 million down and 3 million annually. You have all conceded to accept the worse plan.
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Postby NIN on Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:28 am

Peter wrote:NIN is obsessed with me I think. I didn't even start that other thread. It was Kovyman1127. Stay away NIN. I'll get you a mannequin.

I'm not sure what everyone's problem is. He's just saying this to gain support for IoC. We should all want IoC. Ioc is MUCH BETTER for the penguins. We don't have a lot of money anyway, and with the cap and floor, we will need to spend money. The penguins are much better off keeping that 8 million down and 3 million annually. You have all conceded to accept the worse plan.


Plan "B" is a BACKUP plan. That means the IOC (ie. Pittsburgh First) plan REMAINS the best plan. Accepting plan B means that the team will stay in Pittsburgh.

In case you forgot, that was the whole reason why the Penguins filed for a slots license with IOC in the first place. I want the team to stay in the city of Pittsburgh. I also want the best plan to win, BUT if Idon't get my way (3 applicants, you do the math) I would like a sound, feasable, smart backup plan in place to prevent the unimmaginable from happening.
NIN
 

Postby Peter on Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:23 am

Wow that BACKUP really scared me.

Now, about you being obsessed with me...
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Postby NIN on Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:31 pm

Peter wrote:Wow that BACKUP really scared me.

Now, about you being obsessed with me...


Peter Eater Foefeater Pete Sleet Feet Eat The Peternater Isatoner Gloves Later Petertoga of Rock in Rola
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