Putting Fleury in perspective

Forum for Pittsburgh Penguins-related messages.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Putting Fleury in perspective

Postby Mad City Mike on Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:13 pm

Yesterday, Wisconsin's Brian Elliott was named first team All American goalie. He is also one of three finalists for the Hobey Baker Award. He has had an awesome year, and is only a junior.

But did you know that he is only 4 1/2 months younger than Marc André Fleury? So here is Fleury, at basically the same age as the top college goalie, playing well in the NHL.

More NHL rookie goalies:

Lundqvist: 24
Miller: 25
Nittymaki: 25
Lehtonen: 23
Ward: 22 (btw, Fleury playing on a horrible team has a better GAA and save pct than Ward playing on agreat team)

That kind keeps in perspective how young he actually is.
Mad City Mike
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,578
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:14 am
Location: De Forest, WI

Postby Jim on Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:20 pm

Which is why I was never upset about him starting out in the AHL. He is darn young. People were so outraged when he was sent to the AHL, screaming about it all being the money and about CP being and idiot, and about destroying Fleury's psyche... He IS a kid. In his position he is comparably "younger" than Crosby.
Jim
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 10,856
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:18 pm
Location: Pittsburgh

Postby Vanbiesbrouck on Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:20 pm

Forgetting the 'big save' argument that is silly to make for a team that still loses by 2+ goals on many nights, I have a question about MAF.

Does anyone else notice that he gives up a ton of rebounds? It's very rare that the initial save is made and the puck doesn't come shooting off him straight to one of the faceoff dots. I'd really like to see him getting more shots trapped in his stomach or not always try to kick pucks away. This might have worked in juniors, but the players in the NHL are quicker and will keep beating him on the 2nd shot.

Patrick Roy was a butterfly goalie that was great at controlling rebounds, and thus the pace of the game. His speed is great, and he seems to be making the first save on anything that's not a breakaway. I'm hoping this isn't a case of MAF relying on his reflexes too much, and it's part of his game that will improve over time.
Vanbiesbrouck
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 819
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:50 pm

Postby Jim on Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:27 pm

Some rebounds... he's not Thibault though, HA!

THe thing for me is it seems he makes more Amazing saves than easy ones. You never know what is going to go past him. A shot that you think is 100% in... he stops. A shot that you think a 90 year old nun could make... goal. It's odd.
Jim
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 10,856
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:18 pm
Location: Pittsburgh

Postby Mad City Mike on Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:31 pm

Jim wrote:Some rebounds... he's not Thibault though, HA!

THe thing for me is it seems he makes more Amazing saves than easy ones. You never know what is going to go past him. A shot that you think is 100% in... he stops. A shot that you think a 90 year old nun could make... goal. It's odd.


You mean like almost all the ones the other night :x ?
Mad City Mike
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,578
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:14 am
Location: De Forest, WI

Postby Vanbiesbrouck on Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:37 pm

Yeah, like I said, the soft goals are something that I hope improve. They're both discouraging and untimely, and have sucked the air out of the arena and the team on many occasions. Hopefully they improve with experience at the NHL level.

The rebounds though, seem to be a function of his style of play. Point shots that seem harmless, he tries to kick away, and the marjority of the time, they're going to the high slot. Hopefully the D-men can clear these away, as they should, but I'm not sure there's a reason for Fleury to kick them out there in the first place.

Take a look tonight (or next time he plays) and count the number of times a rebound goes into the corner or he can cover up the puck, as opposed to kicking it straight back out to the shooter or slot area.
Vanbiesbrouck
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 819
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:50 pm

Postby ExPatriatePen on Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:57 pm

I just wish he'd get rid of those yellow pads.

The yellow pads give a great contrast against a black puck so that the offensive players can 'read' the puck faster.

It's sort of like the baseball fields that put a black background up in center field to give a contrast to the white ball.
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,719
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Postby Pitts on Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:40 pm

Jim wrote:Some rebounds... he's not Thibault though, HA!

THe thing for me is it seems he makes more Amazing saves than easy ones. You never know what is going to go past him. A shot that you think is 100% in... he stops. A shot that you think a 90 year old nun could make... goal. It's odd.
He consistenly gets beat up high, over his shoulders. His glove only seems effective and lightning-quick when the shot is mid to low level. He also gets beat 5-hole consistently. Simply things he needs to work on and I'm sure will get much better at.

I think it's safe to say that as the team in front of him gets consistently better, so will he. I think by the time they are playoff contenders, he will be making better, more quality saves and will have much better consistency.
Pitts
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 18,074
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:22 am
Location: Working ....

Postby Daniel on Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:04 pm

Vanbiesbrouck wrote:Yeah, like I said, the soft goals are something that I hope improve. They're both discouraging and untimely, and have sucked the air out of the arena and the team on many occasions. Hopefully they improve with experience at the NHL level.


I think he is like a baseball shortstop who is young and makes the amazing plays and boots the simple grounders. It is about concentration and experience. Fleury knows how to make the amazing plays, because it is athletic ability. Once he knows positioning and gets experience with other teams, he will be pretty awesome.

Vanbiesbrouck wrote:The rebounds though, seem to be a function of his style of play. Point shots that seem harmless, he tries to kick away, and the marjority of the time, they're going to the high slot. Hopefully the D-men can clear these away, as they should, but I'm not sure there's a reason for Fleury to kick them out there in the first place.


I kind of think he does that on purpose. Think about it. This team sucks on so many levels, one being faceoffs. He probably feels he has a better chance of clearing the zone by doing this than by hoping his teammate can win a faceoff. Again, I think experience will help here. I also think in the future he will do it to create good offensive chances the other way.
Daniel
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 2,099
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 4:10 pm
Location: Dallas

Postby Vanbiesbrouck on Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:07 pm

Daniel wrote:I kind of think he does that on purpose. Think about it. This team sucks on so many levels, one being faceoffs. He probably feels he has a better chance of clearing the zone by doing this than by hoping his teammate can win a faceoff. Again, I think experience will help here. I also think in the future he will do it to create good offensive chances the other way.


Clearing the zone would be great. He's not doing that though. He's leaving rebounds in the areas of the faceoff circles. If you want to avoid faceoffs in your zone, kick rebounds to the corners, not out in front.
Vanbiesbrouck
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 819
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:50 pm

Postby Reilly on Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:07 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:I just wish he'd get rid of those yellow pads.

The yellow pads give a great contrast against a black puck so that the offensive players can 'read' the puck faster.

It's sort of like the baseball fields that put a black background up in center field to give a contrast to the white ball.


:roll:
Reilly
 

Postby HitSomeBody on Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:29 pm

Reilly wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:I just wish he'd get rid of those yellow pads.

The yellow pads give a great contrast against a black puck so that the offensive players can 'read' the puck faster.

It's sort of like the baseball fields that put a black background up in center field to give a contrast to the white ball.


:roll:


Really? Why do you think so? I attend three hockey camps each summer, in one of them I'm coached by former NHL goalie Pierre Hamel. He has us wear flourescent pads in practice and black pads in game situations for this very reason.

I'd be inerested in why you think you're smarter than a guy who played pro hockey for over 15 years?
HitSomeBody
 

Postby Mad City Mike on Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:32 pm

HitSomeBody wrote:
Reilly wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:I just wish he'd get rid of those yellow pads.

The yellow pads give a great contrast against a black puck so that the offensive players can 'read' the puck faster.

It's sort of like the baseball fields that put a black background up in center field to give a contrast to the white ball.


:roll:


Really? Why do you think so? I attend three hockey camps each summer, in one of them I'm coached by former NHL goalie Pierre Hamel. He has us wear flourescent pads in practice and black pads in game situations for this very reason.

I'd be inerested in why you think you're smarter than a guy who played pro hockey for over 15 years?


Huh? I think he's saying the same thing you are. What am I missing? Image
Mad City Mike
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,578
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:14 am
Location: De Forest, WI

Postby Vanbiesbrouck on Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:40 pm

Reebok makes Fleury's pads.

Reebok is clearly the authority on all things hockey.

Yellow pads must be ok.
Vanbiesbrouck
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 819
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:50 pm

Postby Tocchet on Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:45 pm

Add Ray Emery of the Senators to that list, and he's only 23 but spent three years on the minors before this year's breakout performance.
Tocchet
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 537
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:52 am
Location: Philadelphia, PA

Postby HitSomeBody on Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:46 pm

Mad City Mike wrote:
HitSomeBody wrote:
Reilly wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:I just wish he'd get rid of those yellow pads.

The yellow pads give a great contrast against a black puck so that the offensive players can 'read' the puck faster.

It's sort of like the baseball fields that put a black background up in center field to give a contrast to the white ball.


:roll:


Really? Why do you think so? I attend three hockey camps each summer, in one of them I'm coached by former NHL goalie Pierre Hamel. He has us wear flourescent pads in practice and black pads in game situations for this very reason.

I'd be inerested in why you think you're smarter than a guy who played pro hockey for over 15 years?


Huh? I think he's saying the same thing you are. What am I missing? Image


Reilly thinks the original poster is wrong. That's why he used that smiley.
HitSomeBody
 

Postby Vanbiesbrouck on Fri Mar 31, 2006 2:47 pm

Tocchet wrote:Add Ray Emery of the Senators to that list, and he's only 23 but spent three years on the minors before this year's breakout performance.


For those of you scoring at home, Ray Emery's pads are white.
Vanbiesbrouck
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 819
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:50 pm

Postby Stoosh on Fri Mar 31, 2006 3:07 pm

Kind of funny...I got Fleury's autograph at signing at Dick's at the Mall at Robinson earlier this week, and it never really hit me how young he is until I saw him at this thing. When I was his age, I was still in college and my biggest concern usually making sure I had enough beer in my fridge in case we had an impromptu party. At that age, I used to get myself worked up over the pressure of a pop quiz in my Abnormal Psych. class...I can't imagine playing night in and night out in front of 17,000 people and having Sergei Gonchar and Josef Melichar playing "defense" in front of you.

(Cue Triumph voice...."I kiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiid, I kiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiid...")

Seriously, though...I get frustrated sometimes when he gives up a bad goal here and there. But I have to keep reminding myself that this team is asking him to handle the #1 goaltender duties at an age where even the best goaltending prospects are putting the finishing touches on their first or second season as a #1 goalie in the AHL.

Go back over the last 15-20 years and find a goaltender who was asked at age 21 to handle his NHL club's primary goaltending duties. Find a goaltender at that age who saw 50-55 games in net in one season for his NHL club.

Luongo? By the time he played 50 games in a single NHL season, he was almost 23 (2001-02 season).

DiPietro? The first time he played 50 games in an NHL season, he was 22 when that season started.

Lehtonen? He won't see 50 this year because he battled some injuries early on, but it's safe to say he would've if he wouldn't have been hurt. He turned 22 this past November, so he's a year older than Fleury.

Ryan Miller? He'll likely see 50 NHL games in a season for the first time this year, and he's 25. He'll be 26 in July.

Brodeur didn't see a 50-game season until 1995-06 when he was 23 years old, although it's safe to assume he would've seen 50 games in the 1994-95 season had it not been cut short by the lockout.

I know a lot of people are going to point to Barrasso. He was 19 years during the 1984-85 season when he played his first 50-game season for the Sabres. Is it fair to make that comparison, though? In 1984-85, there was some Lemieux kid in Pittsburgh who was just a rookie, and Fleury wasn't even born when that season began.

Same thing with Roy, and Roy kind of had the luxury of playing his first full NHL season with a Stanley Cup winner.

So that's the kind of company we're talking about here. He might very well be ahead of the curve of some awfully good goaltenders.

Fleury's going to be just fine.
Stoosh
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 4,439
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:19 am
Location: Aliquippa, PA

Postby Daniel on Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:19 pm

Vanbiesbrouck wrote:
Daniel wrote:I kind of think he does that on purpose. Think about it. This team sucks on so many levels, one being faceoffs. He probably feels he has a better chance of clearing the zone by doing this than by hoping his teammate can win a faceoff. Again, I think experience will help here. I also think in the future he will do it to create good offensive chances the other way.


Clearing the zone would be great. He's not doing that though. He's leaving rebounds in the areas of the faceoff circles. If you want to avoid faceoffs in your zone, kick rebounds to the corners, not out in front.


I agree, it would be nice if he directed them into the corner. I think stuff like that will come with experience.
Daniel
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 2,099
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 4:10 pm
Location: Dallas

Postby Reilly on Fri Mar 31, 2006 6:33 pm

HitSomeBody wrote:
Reilly wrote:
ExPatriatePen wrote:I just wish he'd get rid of those yellow pads.

The yellow pads give a great contrast against a black puck so that the offensive players can 'read' the puck faster.

It's sort of like the baseball fields that put a black background up in center field to give a contrast to the white ball.


:roll:


Really? Why do you think so? I attend three hockey camps each summer, in one of them I'm coached by former NHL goalie Pierre Hamel. He has us wear flourescent pads in practice and black pads in game situations for this very reason.

I'd be inerested in why you think you're smarter than a guy who played pro hockey for over 15 years?


Then every goalie would be wearing black/dark pads. In fact, NO goalie in the NHL wear completely dark pads. There's no trick to goaltending. You're either good, or you're not. The padding you wear does not effect your game. You could also make the arguement that the yellow pads help Fleury in that they allow him to see the puck in his pads if there is a scramble around the net.
Reilly
 

Postby Vanbiesbrouck on Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:05 pm

Image

No wonder we only won 2 cups. Towards the end of his Pens career, Barrasso's pads were totally white.

As you can see, once traded, he started to come around and at least added some dark stripes to hide the puck.

Had he not worn totally white pads, and we not drafed so many Europeans that use white tape on their sticks, we'd still be winning cups.
Vanbiesbrouck
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 819
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:50 pm

Postby Super Slovak Surovy on Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:06 am

i've said it before, fleury would be sooo much better if we had a solid-wall of defense ( or atleast defensivemen who will hit people if they get in the goalies waY)
Super Slovak Surovy
 

Postby bpaluzzi on Mon Apr 03, 2006 10:36 am

Every goalie I've ever played with has used light colored pads for a similar (yet still strangely opposite) reason -- to make it tougher for a shooter to tell where the pads end and where the ice/net/boards (all light colored) begin. If you have dark/black pads, it's very easy to see the five hole open up, to see the space between the top of the butterfly'ed pads and the bottom of the gloves, etc.


bp
bpaluzzi
 

Postby ExPatriatePen on Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:03 am

bpaluzzi wrote:Every goalie I've ever played with has used light colored pads for a similar (yet still strangely opposite) reason -- to make it tougher for a shooter to tell where the pads end and where the ice/net/boards (all light colored) begin. If you have dark/black pads, it's very easy to see the five hole open up, to see the space between the top of the butterfly'ed pads and the bottom of the gloves, etc.


bp


Interesting take. It's so nice to get a well thought out mature reply than the sarcastic idiodic ramblings that immediately followed my original post.

That makes sense. The five hole would be much tougher to see with white or light pads.

It just seems to me that MAF's pads would then fail on both counts.
First, they provide a contrast to the loose puck, making the puck easier to pickup. (The other side of that is that an offical is supposed to blow the whistle and call for a faceoff when he can't see the puck anymore). The concept is similar to the reason so many hockey players give for using black tape on the balde of their sticks.

Secondly, the Five Hole is still highlighed by the contrast against those yellow pads.

I'm not saying it would make the difference between the Stanley Cup and a last place finish (Vanbiesbrouck :roll: ) but I'd think he'd want any advantage he could get. If it steals one game a year, that could be the game that matters.

I just found it to be interesting. If you don't, move along...
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,719
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Postby DelPen on Mon Apr 03, 2006 11:10 am

They need to get rid of the under 19 rule in the AHL. Fleury would have been better off playing for WBS in 2003 instead of bouncing around 4 different teams. Either allow teams to play their prospects wherever they want or move the draft age back a year. Fleury, and Crosvy for that matter, should have been allowed to play in the AHL if we wanted them to.
DelPen
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 32,149
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:27 am
Location: Lake Wylie, SC

Next

Return to Pittsburgh Penguins

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: BurghThing, darkstar57, IcePack, Penspal, Pruezy11881, Rocco, stonyman and 55 guests

e-mail