Attempt at an objective view of the AO/SC Caldier race...

Forum for Pittsburgh Penguins-related messages.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Attempt at an objective view of the AO/SC Caldier race...

Postby Jim on Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:46 am

Using the Gonchar model as an example...

Ignore this year...

Gonchar has been the highest scoring Dman over the last 5 years (or whatever it is)... however, he has never been a serious contender for the Norris. Reason, too one-dimentional.

This model could be used for the Ovechkin/Crosby Caldier debate. AO is extremely one dimentional. He is offense orientated and that's about it. However, he is extremely good at it. Much like the fact that Gonchar is the highest scoring Dman. (He only hits in the last few minutes of the game, so don't go all "but he hits" on me.) Crosby is much more a rounded player. He scores, passes, backchecks... basically a bit of everything. So while he does score, it's not at the rate of AO, but he does a lot of other things on a regular basis that AO does only on occasion.

Comparing Crosby and AO for the Caldier should be like comparing Lidstrom and Gonchar for the Norris. Yes, I would love to have any and all of them on the team, but when you look at the total, overall picture... it is clear:

Gonchar - NICE! Lidstrom - Even better!

Ovechkin - NICE! Crosby - Even better!


How about a... Pavel Bure/Ron Francis comparison? Maybe Pavel Bure/Yzerman would be better...
Jim
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,405
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:18 pm
Location: Pittsburgh

Postby wondermoose on Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:52 am

The big difference between Gonchar's and Ovechkin's respective dimension is you can stop Gonchar; No one, not even the best of the best, can contain Ovechkin.

Ovechkin's a superior player to Crosby right now and I don't think any arguement can prove otherwise.
wondermoose
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 4,851
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:18 am

Postby Jim on Tue Apr 04, 2006 11:58 am

wondermoose wrote:The big difference between Gonchar's and Ovechkin's respective dimension is you can stop Gonchar; No one, not even the best of the best, can contain Ovechkin.


There are some liberites you take as you are comparing two defensemen to two forwards. If either Gonchar or Lidstrom (or any other Dman) was that dominating offensively.... they would be a forward. It isn't meant to Compare Lidstrom directly to Crosby or Gonchar directly to AO. It is meant to compare Gonchar to Lidstrom paralleled to comparing AO to Crosby.
Jim
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,405
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:18 pm
Location: Pittsburgh

Postby dman66 on Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:00 pm

i dont think ao is one dimensional at all. i think he's a better passer than most give him credit for. i mean, he is only 3 assists behind crosby. not saying that i dont think crosby will be better, but i think that is one facet of ao's game that is underrated, same with crosby not being physical. he doesnt have the same big hits as ao, but people who say he isn't physical just don't watch any games
dman66
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 3,783
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:04 pm
Location: Dahntahn Baltimore, MD

Postby wondermoose on Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:02 pm

The attention AO demands is really opening up the game for his linemates. Think Mario and the nobodies that got stuck on his lines back in the 80s and 90s. And yeah, I don't consider him one dimensional either, especially if you consider his physical play.
wondermoose
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 4,851
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:18 am

Postby Jim on Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:03 pm

dman66 wrote:i dont think ao is one dimensional at all. i think he's a better passer than most give him credit for. i mean, he is only 3 assists behind crosby.


His assist numbers are impressive, but it's not from being a good passer. He does create offense. I have seen him live a bunch of times and he really does not pass that much, nor that well. Pure guess, but based on observation... I would think that more of his assists come off of rebound of his shots than from him actually making a pass (even as second assist).
Jim
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,405
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:18 pm
Location: Pittsburgh

Postby ExPatriatePen on Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:04 pm

Defensemen can't get away with being one dimensional as well as forwards can.

Tell me Gretz was great defensively?

About the only D-Man who got away with being one dimensional was Paul Coffey and he played on some very special teams. I firmly believe he wouldn't have been successful otherwise.

At the end of his career, on the Whalers, Hawks, Flyers, 'Canes and Bruins, he wasn't nearly as productive.
ExPatriatePen
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 22,719
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:57 pm
Location: Source, Destination, Protocol, Port, size, sequence number, check sum... Yep, that about covers it.

Postby Mad City Mike on Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:06 pm

If it's true that Crosby is a better all-around player, then why is he -8, while Ovechkin is +3? They both play on equally bad teams. At this point in time, AO is the better player. In time, maybe as soon as next year, that might not be the case. Ask me which of them I would take to build a franchise around, and the answer is Sid. But this year, AO is the better player.
Mad City Mike
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,754
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:14 am
Location: De Forest, WI

Postby dman66 on Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:15 pm

i agree with you mcm, it is definately ao's to lose
dman66
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 3,783
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 6:04 pm
Location: Dahntahn Baltimore, MD

Postby FlyerNation on Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:16 pm

I wouldn't call either guy one dimensional.
FlyerNation
 

Postby Jim on Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:21 pm

Mad City Mike wrote:If it's true that Crosby is a better all-around player, then why is he -8, while Ovechkin is +3?


Um, because they are on different teams.

Why is Crosby a -8 while:
Recchi -28
LeClair -21
Malone -23
Ouellet -12
Lemieux -16

Pittsburgh roster carries a -256 total +/- while Washington carries a -138. It's not hard to figure out why AO might be +11 better than Crosby. Plus, AO is, oddly, 11 points ahead of Crosby...
Jim
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,405
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:18 pm
Location: Pittsburgh

Postby socket on Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:25 pm

I don't think comparing +/- is always a "fair" comparison. Yes, there's what, 11 points difference, but it's more of a team stat than an individual one.
socket
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 655
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:28 am

Postby socket on Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:26 pm

you beat me. :)
socket
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 655
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2006 1:28 am

Postby pensfannn on Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:28 pm

Crosby may be a better player at 18 than Ovechkin was.
Crosby may be a better all-around player than Ovechkin.
Crosby may have outscored Ovechkin in head-to-head games.

But...

Calder voters will be slaves to the stats. Whoever scores the most rookie points will win rookie of the year. If Crosby can average 3 points/game from here on in, he has a chance.

Otherwise, our best bet for rookie of the year is Malkin in '07.
pensfannn
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,079
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2006 4:21 pm

Postby Jim on Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:33 pm

socket wrote:I don't think comparing +/- is always a "fair" comparison. Yes, there's what, 11 points difference, but it's more of a team stat than an individual one.


Rozsival has pretty much led the league in +/- most of the lear... so that either means that someone else is wearin Rozsival's jersey, Rozsival is playing at the dark arts, or that +/- isn't that great a judgement of indivudual performance.
Jim
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,405
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:18 pm
Location: Pittsburgh

Postby Kicksave on Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:48 pm

AO is better than Crosby right now.

AO is also 2 years OLDER than Crosby and has played in a league full of grown men even before this year.

Crosby made the jump right from Jrs.

You can't compare Crosby and Ovechkin because they are from two different drafts. If you want to compare, you need to wait until Crosby is 20, like Ovechkin is now. I don't think Ovechkin would have been able to do what Crosby is doing right now at the age of 18.
Kicksave
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 20,572
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:53 am
Location: Feeling like I want to rage...right now.

Postby Kovy27 on Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:54 pm

Sorry...

Lundqvist should be Rook of the Year. or at least get some attention....
Kovy27
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 24,467
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:56 pm
Location: Break Down the Walls of Kovy27

Postby Jim on Tue Apr 04, 2006 12:57 pm

Lundqvist does actually have some really good numbers and good skill, and would normally be a front runner. I was joking with some friends saying watch him win it. The voters will be debating AO and SC and just go with Lundqvist because they couldn't make up their minds.
Jim
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,405
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:18 pm
Location: Pittsburgh

Postby Kovy27 on Tue Apr 04, 2006 1:04 pm

I personally think he deserves it. Great numbers, and is leading a team that normally craps the bed during the regular season. The Rangers would not be anywhere near where they are without him and Jagoff...I mean Jagr.
Kovy27
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 24,467
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:56 pm
Location: Break Down the Walls of Kovy27


Return to Pittsburgh Penguins

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Chirpin' Grinder and 6 guests

e-mail