Mario's 100 point rookie year harder to achieve than Sid's?

Forum for Pittsburgh Penguins-related messages.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Mario's 100 point rookie year harder to achieve than Sid's?

Postby kovyman1127 on Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:27 pm

In Mario's rookie year:

-no trap D
-run and gun hockey
-HAD 2 LINE PASS RULE


In Crosby's rookie year:

-trap D
-systematic hockey
-NO 2 LINE PASS RULE

Thoughts???
kovyman1127
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 967
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:45 pm

Postby Henry Hank on Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:33 pm

Scoring was way higher in Mario's rookie year. His 100 points were good for 12th or 13th in the league, while Crosby will end up 8th or 9th and he may not even score 100 points, to put things in perspective. Wayne Gretzky had over 200 points that year.

Something you don't consider is the impact that improved goaltending has had on the game. Look at highlights of Mario's early career. The typical goalie just wasn't that good compared to today.

Just on a point production level, I think you can argue that Crosby's having a more impressive rookie year than Lemieux. In fact, I think you can argue that Crosby's having the best season ever by an 18-year-old rookie. But Lemieux came into a team that had nothing and still put up huge numbers. Crosby's on the worst team in the league, and it's not as if he's been playing with superstars all year, but playing with the likes of Palffy, Recchi, Gonchar, and even Armstrong certainly helps him a lot.

It's just hard to compare because these are two entirely different eras and two different teams, even though they both were very bad. The only thing we can say with certainty is that Crosby's having about as good a year as anybody could have expected. He's having one of the best years ever by a rookie, especially one so young.
Henry Hank
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 12,480
Joined: Sun Feb 05, 2006 2:31 pm

Postby wondermoose on Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:52 pm

In Mario's rookie year...


-No clutching and grabbing.
-Slower defensemen
-No 6'HUGE" defensemen weighing 250lbs
wondermoose
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 4,900
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 2:18 am

Postby Jim on Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:56 pm

Who doesn't want free pie and chips? It's pie... it's chips... it's free...
Jim
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,553
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:18 pm
Location: Pittsburgh

Postby Sam's Drunk Dog on Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:57 pm

Jim, I think you are finally starting to lose it. Hold on man! Hold on!
Sam's Drunk Dog
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 18,886
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:31 pm
Location: Behind Enemy Lines

Postby FuturePens on Wed Apr 12, 2006 3:58 pm

Mario played 7 games less than Sid the Kid.
FuturePens
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 777
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 3:35 am

Postby Mad City Mike on Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:26 pm

Just look at the numbers:

1984-85: 7.77 goals per game
2005-06: 6.17 goals per game

Scoring is down 21 percent since Mario's rookie year. So, if you apply that factor to Mario's point total, he would have had 79 points, which doesn't even come close to Sid's 100 if he gets it.

Oh, those were the days :?
Mad City Mike
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,755
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:14 am
Location: De Forest, WI

Postby HomerPenguin on Wed Apr 12, 2006 4:29 pm

Mad City Mike wrote:Just look at the numbers:

1984-85: 7.77 goals per game
2005-06: 6.17 goals per game

Scoring is down 21 percent since Mario's rookie year. So, if you apply that factor to Mario's point total, he would have had 79 points, which doesn't even come close to Sid's 100 if he gets it.

Oh, those were the days :?


Lemieux also turned Warren Young into a 40 goal scorer that year. Hopefully Crosby is playing with better linemates, although really only time will tell.

I think there's plenty of space out there in the ether for both of their rookie seasons to have been pretty damn good. What's the point in comparing them?
HomerPenguin
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 10,884
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:50 pm
Location: ...

Postby kovyman1127 on Wed Apr 12, 2006 5:23 pm

wondermoose wrote:Something you don't consider is the impact that improved goaltending has had on the game. Look at highlights of Mario's early career. The typical goalie just wasn't that good compared to today.


Yes and No. The talent in the league shooting at the goalies isn't as good when it was a 21 team league...and the equipment wasn't has big either.

But, I agree that goalies are schooled better now...
kovyman1127
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 967
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:45 pm

Postby netwolf on Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:02 pm

Jim wrote:Who doesn't want free pie and chips? It's pie... it's chips... it's free...


But free pie and chips... ahh, you can get that anywhere. netwolf posts - made from scratch. Just for you. :lol:
netwolf
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,347
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:04 am

Postby langano on Wed Apr 12, 2006 8:47 pm

There is a larger number of better players in the NHL now, from all around the world. Makes things more difficult. Scoring streaks haven't gone past 15-20 games in years.

Mario had a gift. But he wasn't the athelete Crosby is. Sid seems to be a harder worker than Mario. But he hasn't shown that "magic" (yet) that we saw in Lemieux.

Crosby is just in much better shape than Mario ever was and he will only get stronger. But the NHL isn't the same with some of these giants (Chara, Bertuzzi, Hatcher) in it.
langano
 

Postby 25+66+22=#1 on Wed Apr 12, 2006 10:58 pm

I have some games on tape from Mario's rookie year, and going back and watching them is really entertaining. The game was way more wide open back then. Odd man rushes were an absolute constant. Now in Roger Nielson's version of system hockey your lucky you get 1 or 2 a game. Mario was incredible, even as a rook. But he was very, very raw. He very much needed to grow up some. Just my opinion but i think Sid is better at 18 than "The Big Guy" was. Some say Sid needs to grow up too, and i agree, but in a completely different way than Lemieux needed to. Mario was so used to everything coming so easy to him in his hockey life, that he had to learn to compete on this level. Once he developed that competitive edge he became a legend. Sidney already has that and that's why he's better at 18. That being said, Mario's highest levels will be very hard for Sid to attain. His hockey mind may develop on a level similar or even higher than Lemieux. But his physical skills will never reach Mario's level. Nobody has reached that level. Sid could go from here to obscurity, or he could go someplace uncharted. A talent like Gretzky and Lemieux, but with a humongous domineering personality like Messier or Bobby Clarke. It's all on how the Pens build around him.
25+66+22=#1
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 602
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:18 am
Location: Belle Vernon Pa

Postby Jim on Thu Apr 13, 2006 7:17 am

It was "easier" in Mario's day.
Jim
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,553
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:18 pm
Location: Pittsburgh

Postby jdev28 on Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:03 pm

Jim wrote:It was "easier" in Mario's day.


It was so easy, even a caveman could have scored back then.
jdev28
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 590
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 7:06 pm
Location: the four one two

Postby Sam's Drunk Dog on Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:10 pm

jdev28 wrote:
Jim wrote:It was "easier" in Mario's day.


It was so easy, even a caveman could have scored back then.


Fred Flinstone wants an apology.
Sam's Drunk Dog
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 18,886
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:31 pm
Location: Behind Enemy Lines

Postby jdev28 on Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:19 pm

Sam's Drunk Dog wrote:
jdev28 wrote:
Jim wrote:It was "easier" in Mario's day.


It was so easy, even a caveman could have scored back then.


Fred Flinstone wants an apology.


I apologize. I didn't know cavemen existed anymore.
jdev28
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 590
Joined: Sat Feb 04, 2006 7:06 pm
Location: the four one two

Postby Admin on Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:22 pm

jdev28 wrote:It was so easy, even a caveman could have scored back then.

"Yeah, next time maybe do a little research." :|
Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10,806
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 1:04 am

Postby Jim on Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:35 pm

netwolf wrote:
Jim wrote:Who doesn't want free pie and chips? It's pie... it's chips... it's free...


But free pie and chips... ahh, you can get that anywhere. netwolf posts - made from scratch. Just for you. :lol:


i would like to know where I can get free pie and chips...
Jim
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,553
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:18 pm
Location: Pittsburgh

Postby netwolf on Thu Apr 13, 2006 12:41 pm

Jim wrote:
netwolf wrote:
Jim wrote:Who doesn't want free pie and chips? It's pie... it's chips... it's free...


But free pie and chips... ahh, you can get that anywhere. netwolf posts - made from scratch. Just for you. :lol:


i would like to know where I can get free pie and chips...


Ask the gecko. I was just parroting what he told me...
netwolf
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 15,347
Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2006 2:04 am

Postby MWW on Thu Apr 13, 2006 4:03 pm

Jim wrote:It was "easier" in Mario's day.


I believe it, too.

I don´t have the time to do some research, but 100 point scorers were far more common in 1984 than today.

Sid´s accomplishment is very good, nonetheless.

We as Pensfans can be proud of our Superrookie.
MWW
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 774
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 2:39 pm
Location: Berlin, Germany: Back Home at last !!!!

Postby kovyman1127 on Thu Apr 13, 2006 5:21 pm

Yeah...but only a few of you guys have addressed the "why"....

You say 100 point scorers were common in 1984....was that cause of that more talent then there is today?

You say that the is more "talent" with 30 team league then there was with 21 team league...but bringing 20 good Euro's over doesn't diminish the other 160 players now "diluted" into the league now that it's 30 teams. Think of the "3rd liner" in 1984 and now think of the 3rd liner....I would gladly take the average 80's 3rd liner than today's 3rd liner.

I agree 100% about the "top of the game" comparison. Mario smoked 3 packs of cigs a day and had a pot belly when he came into the league in 1984 and he didn't have the trapping style that is going on today. But he also didn't have a no 2 line pass rule.

Can Sid beat players 1 on 1 like Mario did? Can Sid carry 2 guys on his back down the ice and score? Will Sid every be as good on breakaways/shootouts/penalty shots like Mario was in his prime?
kovyman1127
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 967
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 6:45 pm

Postby Jim on Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:58 pm

ziggystardust wrote:spare me the bull about goalies being worse back then. Thats just not the case.


Oh please... Aubin would be a GOD in 1985.
Jim
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,553
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:18 pm
Location: Pittsburgh

Postby Vanbiesbrouck on Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:04 pm

Watching the Pens classics, the goaltending was pretty pathetic. Whether it's the equipment or whatever, some of the goals are comical.

The Flyers playoff game vs. Hextall has several examples.
Vanbiesbrouck
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 819
Joined: Thu Feb 02, 2006 1:50 pm

Postby Jim on Fri Apr 14, 2006 7:06 am

Vanbiesbrouck wrote:Watching the Pens classics, the goaltending was pretty pathetic. Whether it's the equipment or whatever, some of the goals are comical.

The Flyers playoff game vs. Hextall has several examples.


Honestly, it's just the evolution of the game. Look at old black and white footage... It looks like dek hockey.
Jim
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,553
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 10:18 pm
Location: Pittsburgh

Postby 25+66+22=#1 on Fri Apr 14, 2006 11:44 am

Jim wrote:
Vanbiesbrouck wrote:Watching the Pens classics, the goaltending was pretty pathetic. Whether it's the equipment or whatever, some of the goals are comical.

The Flyers playoff game vs. Hextall has several examples.


Honestly, it's just the evolution of the game. Look at old black and white footage... It looks like dek hockey.


I don't agree with that at all. Goalies are better trained today, and better equipped. But they don't have to face anywhere near the quality of shots that a netminder in 1984 had to face. Today's goalies are great and deserve respect, however they get way too much in my opinion. Grant Fuhr was an awesome goalie for the Oiler dynasty, because he stood on his head while they left him out to dry. Why? because they were trying to score a million goals. Every team was like that except Boston and Montreal back then. Today every team (including our Pens) thinks defense first. This is why Sid's totals must be given great respect. Gretzky in his prime would have trouble getting 150 pts today, not because of the goalies, but the defensive systems in front of them.
25+66+22=#1
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 602
Joined: Wed Feb 01, 2006 12:18 am
Location: Belle Vernon Pa


Return to Pittsburgh Penguins

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

e-mail