ISS Top Four

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ISS Top Four

Postby Ironhorse on Thu Apr 20, 2006 2:50 pm

The International Scouting Service (ISS) top foru are

1. Erik Johnson
2. Jonathan Toews
3. Jordan Staal
4. Phil Kessel

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?fid=10631

This is the first time I've seen any scouting service not have Kessel in the top 4. He really fell off at the end of the year. Does this change anyone's mind. I always said go with Johnson first and Toews second although many of you want Staal. Interesting at the least.
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Postby DelPen on Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:01 pm

Staal and Toews are lefties and Kessel is a righty. Unless TSM messed the list up I have no faith in this list if they can't even get what hand the guys shoot with right.
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Postby Jesse on Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:06 pm

The Penguins could really build a defensive powerhouse from Big Blue this year.

If Johnson is there at 2, we're obviously taking him. In the second round, there's a good chance Mark Mitera will be there, and we'd be wise to nab him too.

Mitera and Johnson play together at MU and compliment each other well. Both are part of that 11 member freshman class there. Johnson can score, Mitera hangs back and plays great defense. He's a 6'3 - 210lb nasty american D-man.

If we could get both of them, we'd have our top pairing for years to come set.

Mitera, Johnson, Whitney, Welch, Letang --- in front of Fluery???

That's just unfair.
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Postby MrKnowNothing on Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:09 pm

That's just the North American forwards list.
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Postby DelPen on Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:15 pm

MrKnowNothing wrote:That's just the North American forwards list.


No, it's the full skaters list.

I have my eye on David Fischer for the 2nd round, righty, already 6-4 and good at moving the puck. Committed to Minnesota next year but might play for Tri-City Americans in the USHL.
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Postby MrKnowNothing on Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:18 pm

DelPen wrote:
MrKnowNothing wrote:That's just the North American forwards list.


No, it's the full skaters list.

I have my eye on David Fischer for the 2nd round, righty, already 6-4 and good at moving the puck. Committed to Minnesota next year but might play for Tri-City Americans in the USHL.


My bad, lol, I guess I should have clicked the link.

Oh, I just realized that this is ISS, not CSS. I'm an idiot. :roll:

Mike Weber is a Pittsburgh native and is supposedly a pretty good defenseman. But I don't know if he'll be there at 32. I haven't looked into the second round and beyond yet.
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Re: ISS Top Four

Postby Admin on Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:29 pm

Ironhorse wrote:This is the first time I've seen any scouting service not have Kessel in the top 4.

Kessel is listed fifth in the Central Scouting's final ranking (April '06) of North American skaters.

1 Johnson, Erik - USA, US Nat'L U-18
2 Staal, Jordan - OHL, Peterborough
3 Toews, Jonathan - WCHA, University Of North Dakota
4 Brassard, Derick - QMJHL, Drummondville
5 Kessel, Phil - WCHA, University of Minnesota

I can upload the full lists of N.A. and European skaters and goalies if anyone wants them.
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Postby Jim on Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:46 pm

Trade the pick...
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Postby elij21 on Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:56 pm

(Staal and Toews are lefties and Kessel is a righty. Unless TSM messed the list up I have no faith in this list if they can't even get what hand the guys shoot with right.)


How can you not have faith when it says it the international scouting Service. I'm pretty sure they got there information right.
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Postby Reilly on Thu Apr 20, 2006 3:59 pm

Jim wrote:Trade the pick...


for?
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Postby DelPen on Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:04 pm

elij21 wrote:(Staal and Toews are lefties and Kessel is a righty. Unless TSM messed the list up I have no faith in this list if they can't even get what hand the guys shoot with right.)


How can you not have faith when it says it the international scouting Service. I'm pretty sure they got there information right.


Umm, beacause they aren't?

Toews: http://www.collegehockeynews.com/images ... _toews.jpg

Staal: http://i9.ebayimg.com/03/i/06/06/b8/51_1.JPG

Kessel: http://www.madison.com/images/articles/ ... _thumb.jpg

That's a lefty, another lefty and a righty...just like I (and McKeens' where I got the info from" said.
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Postby FallenHero96 on Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:13 pm

I dont know how widely reported this was, but just a little FYI tidbit since we are talking about Johnson, he has decided he will be going to the University of Minnesota next year.

Oh and Jesse, dont forget Goligoski on that list. :)
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Postby superconan on Thu Apr 20, 2006 4:25 pm

Jim wrote:Trade the pick...


I wonder what it would take to get JJ from Carolina? Maybe if we get Staal they would be interested in getting him to be with his brother.
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Postby Ron` on Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:14 pm

Jim wrote:Trade the pick...

I'm leaning to that too Jim. This draft is very weak and we likely won't get Johnson.
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Postby mikey287 on Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:46 pm

Echoing the last few statements, trade that pick is right. Get a 22-28 year old who already has NHL proven talent, maybe a good d-man...it won't be Jack Johnson, rest assured he won't be given up. But see if Florida will move J-Bo, see if Vaananen is available, Colaiacovo, I don't know what the value of the pick would be, but if we could put together something and get a really good defenseman out of it...or a talented scoring winger...now help, not 2-4 years from now prospective help...
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Postby DelPen on Thu Apr 20, 2006 6:50 pm

mikey287 wrote:Echoing the last few statements, trade that pick is right. Get a 22-28 year old who already has NHL proven talent, maybe a good d-man...it won't be Jack Johnson, rest assured he won't be given up. But see if Florida will move J-Bo, see if Vaananen is available, Colaiacovo, I don't know what the value of the pick would be, but if we could put together something and get a really good defenseman out of it...or a talented scoring winger...now help, not 2-4 years from now prospective help...


This pick is not worth much at all. #1 has some value becasue Erik Johnson is by far the best player available and that he's a defenseman makes him more valuable. The next 5 guys are all forwards who have a lot of questionmarks around them. Why trade a sure thing for a questionmark?

The only way we get anyone that would make a difference is if a cap strapped team needs to clear room and is looking to build for a really solid cup run in about 3 years when this player they draft makes it to the NHL and is effective on a good team.

I say we roll the dice on the best player who would make the team this fall.
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Postby mikey287 on Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:04 pm

I'm not a GM or anything but I believe there is value to be had in that 2nd overall pick. How about a team like Colorado, Edmonton (although they have a really good core of young players and prospects), Tampa Bay, San Jose...teams that don't have that solid of a future, but may or may not be in the playoffs next year (except San Jose, they should be there), they won't give up something of some value to get a pick...Edmonton giving up a Brad Winchester or even Marc Andre Bergeron (part of larger deal). I don't know I think we can squeeze something out of this if we shop it around, my personal feeling is that I would love to grab Colaiacovo and maybe Ponikarovsky (we need some more 3rd liners, j/k) and/or Antropov (worth a try, no?) and give up a big center back, hm, I don't know...Endicott, and throw them a terrible old d-man like Odelein...I don't know just an idealistic shot at something, but my point is, I think the pick has some okay value, it is 2nd overall.
After thought: Would Thibault garner any interest...like in Toronto, with Telly and all, he would be a guy to fall back on, we give up Thibualt, Endo and our 1st for CC, AP, NA or whatever...I'll just stop, I've been rambling for way too long...
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Postby Reilly on Thu Apr 20, 2006 8:06 pm

mikey287 wrote:I'm not a GM or anything but I believe there is value to be had in that 2nd overall pick. How about a team like Colorado, Edmonton (although they have a really good core of young players and prospects), Tampa Bay, San Jose...teams that don't have that solid of a future, but may or may not be in the playoffs next year (except San Jose, they should be there), they won't give up something of some value to get a pick...Edmonton giving up a Brad Winchester or even Marc Andre Bergeron (part of larger deal). I don't know I think we can squeeze something out of this if we shop it around, my personal feeling is that I would love to grab Colaiacovo and maybe Ponikarovsky (we need some more 3rd liners, j/k) and/or Antropov (worth a try, no?) and give up a big center back, hm, I don't know...Endicott, and throw them a terrible old d-man like Odelein...I don't know just an idealistic shot at something, but my point is, I think the pick has some okay value, it is 2nd overall.
After thought: Would Thibault garner any interest...like in Toronto, with Telly and all, he would be a guy to fall back on, we give up Thibualt, Endo and our 1st for CC, AP, NA or whatever...I'll just stop, I've been rambling for way too long...



Hopefully Ken Sawyer doesn't hire you as the next GM.
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Postby Draftnik on Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:13 pm

The Kessel backlash is amazing. He has been measured against Crosby all season because of the comparisons last year. As Crosby played better in the NHL Kessel's stock dropped. His idiot Minn coach Lucia decided to defer to his upperclassmen and not turn the team over to Kessel the frosh. The result was they were eliminated in the 1st round of the WCHA and NCAA playoffs. Kessel would have scored many more points if he were on the #1 line centering Potulny. Kessel looked very dangerous early in the season on the PK, but was inexplicably bumped off that duty around the 1st of the year. Somehow this kid gets criticized for their postseason failure even though his coach relegated him to a secondary role. In their biggest game of the season the veteran #1 line didn't score a goal and was on the ice for 2 goals against including the game winner.

He moved to C from RW and ended up leading the WJC in scoring/assists, but his stock dropped because he did not score goals like he did at the 05 WJC. The guy can skate better than 95% of the NHL, has the most lethal slap, snap, and wrist shot of any player in the draft, and greatly improved his playmaking skills this past year. He can already make plays at NHL tempo. His raw skills could make him an all time great if he applies himself and develops them.

Staal has rocked up the draft boards as he had a great year with his production catching up to his size. I can't help wonder though what the effects are of his brother Eric turning in an unexpected early breakout season and his brother Mark turning in a strong WJC performance.

Johnson did show an amazing size/speed/skill ratio for a defensemen and probably projects as the best player just because of the rarity of that package in a defenseman.

Toews had a solid year and RLR still claims he is solidly in the 1st tier of the draft with Johnson & Kessel.

I think people are underestimating the impact this pick can have on the Pens. I don't see any of these guys being significant contributors in the next few seasons, but they all could be franchise caliber players by their 3rd NHL seasons and the Pens could control their rights for 7 seasons, assuming the CBA doesn't change.

Trading this pick makes no sense and is a PlayStation move. The Pens core is still too young to add expensive veteran assets because they aren't in a position to contend next season with a 2nd year G and a top 4 on defense of Orpik (2), Whitney (1), Welch (R), and Gonchar (no defense). Trading this pick would be as ludicrous as signing Gonchar and Palffy to big $$$ deals was for a team with only very young and very old players. The Pens still don't have enough core assets in their prime playing years to make a legitimate run.
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Postby netwolf on Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:34 pm

Draftnik, in your opinion is Kessel more effective on the wing or in the middle? That is my main concern. Many of the top forwards are all centers. People talk about taking one of them and moving them to wing like it's no big deal but as we saw this year with 87 he was much better in the middle.

If Kessel's development and production won't be lessened by putting him on the wing, then I say stay at #2 and take either Kessel or Johnson. If the move to wing might be a problem or limit Kessel in any way, then I say call St. Louis and see if you can get them to swap picks to get Johnson.
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Postby Rohit on Thu Apr 20, 2006 10:38 pm

netwolf wrote:Draftnik, in your opinion is Kessel more effective on the wing or in the middle? That is my main concern. Many of the top forwards are all centers. People talk about taking one of them and moving them to wing like it's no big deal but as we saw this year with 87 he was much better in the middle.

If Kessel's development and production won't be lessened by putting him on the wing, then I say stay at #2 and take either Kessel or Johnson. If the move to wing might be a problem or limit Kessel in any way, then I say call St. Louis and see if you can get them to swap picks to get Johnson.


if i remember correctly, i read somewhere that kessel was more productive at RW but he was switched to center because the coach thought he would develop into that "all around player" but he wasnt as productive...

sorry i dont have a source for that, i dont tend to remember these things, just random facts
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Postby Draftnik on Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:01 pm

netwolf wrote:Draftnik, in your opinion is Kessel more effective on the wing or in the middle? That is my main concern. Many of the top forwards are all centers. People talk about taking one of them and moving them to wing like it's no big deal but as we saw this year with 87 he was much better in the middle.

If Kessel's development and production won't be lessened by putting him on the wing, then I say stay at #2 and take either Kessel or Johnson. If the move to wing might be a problem or limit Kessel in any way, then I say call St. Louis and see if you can get them to swap picks to get Johnson.


I've seen him play much more C than RW so its hard to say. Even at W he is the type of player that carries the puck. He has such amazing speed and puckhandling ability he really has to have the puck to be at his best. He is kind of like Jagr in that sense, not that they play a similar game, but Jagr really needed the puck to be effective for the better part of his career. The concerns about how he would fit in with Crosby and/or Malkin at W are legitimate because they also need to have the puck to be at their best.

Either way it makes no sense to trade the pick for any reason other than to grab Johnson. Kessel could be parked at Minn for a few years and he will be an absolute scoring machine that probably will have higher trade value in a few years when the perception of his game isn't as warped as it is today. A trade also would make more sense in a few years because the Pens core would be more mature and the parts they need to complete their puzzle would be defined much better.

Staal also could be a candidate to move to the W kind of in a Rick Nash mold, but from the one and only game I saw him play he also seemed to want to control the puck in a slower kind of Joe Thornton sense.
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Postby netwolf on Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:04 pm

Draftnik wrote:The concerns about how he would fit in with Crosby and/or Malkin at W are legitimate because they also need to have the puck to be at their best.


I had been looking solely at how the position change in and of itself would affect Kessel, but that's another part of the equation I had not considered. Excellent point.
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Postby Henry Hank on Thu Apr 20, 2006 11:35 pm

Either way it makes no sense to trade the pick for any reason other than to grab Johnson. Kessel could be parked at Minn for a few years and he will be an absolute scoring machine that probably will have higher trade value in a few years when the perception of his game isn't as warped as it is today. A trade also would make more sense in a few years because the Pens core would be more mature and the parts they need to complete their puzzle would be defined much better.


That's the key to the situation the Pens currently are in. They've already got two franchise-calibre players to center the top two lines in Crosby and Malkin for at least the next what, seven years? And I'm guessing at least one of those guys will be here for a very long time, hopefully their entire careers. Even if these draft possibilities aren't necessarily useful to us, by the time they're developed and ready, they should be huge trading chips to get something the team really does need.
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Postby Draftnik on Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:21 pm

Henry Hank wrote:That's the key to the situation the Pens currently are in. They've already got two franchise-calibre players to center the top two lines in Crosby and Malkin for at least the next what, seven years? And I'm guessing at least one of those guys will be here for a very long time, hopefully their entire careers. Even if these draft possibilities aren't necessarily useful to us, by the time they're developed and ready, they should be huge trading chips to get something the team really does need.


Right. It also is hard to say how players will develop chemistry with other players as they mature. I don't think the Pens should back off Kessel and/or Staal because of positional concerns, but their successful combination with Crosby and/or Malkin isn't a slam dunk.

Lemieux needed the puck less as he aged. Jagr has developed some incredible 1-timing skills and learned to come late while his teammates carry the puck. Kessel's speed would open up the ice for Crosby and/or Malkin no matter who had the puck.

Whoever the Pens draft with the 2nd pick they still will desperately need some skilled forwards in the system that can go to the net and slot to one time passes, get deflections, rebounds, etc.
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