Buccigross: Fleury falls to #11 in the class of 2003

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Buccigross: Fleury falls to #11 in the class of 2003

Postby Tomas on Wed May 03, 2006 9:23 pm

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/playoffs2 ... id=2429157

I have commented on the 2003 draft a couple times in this space. Yes, it will go down as one of the deepest first rounds of all time. I mean, it is that good. Upon further review, the Penguins would not have taken Marc-Andre Fleury first overall. With what we know right now, if the NHL threw all of the 2003 first-rounders in a hat and had the teams select in the same order after seeing the class of 2003 play, the first 11 picks would probably look like this:


Pittsburgh -- Dion Phaneuf
Carolina -- Eric Staal
Florida -- Nathan Horton
Columbus -- Ryan Getzlaf
Buffalo -- Thomas Vanek
San Jose -- Milan Michalek
Nashville -- Jeff Carter
Atlanta -- Nikolai Zherdev
Calgary -- Steve Bernier
Montreal -- Zach Parise
Philadelphia-- Marc-Andre Fleury
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Re: Buccigross: Fleury falls to #11 in the class of 2003

Postby NIN on Wed May 03, 2006 9:47 pm

Tomas wrote:http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/playoffs2006/columns/story?columnist=buccigross_john&id=2429157

I have commented on the 2003 draft a couple times in this space. Yes, it will go down as one of the deepest first rounds of all time. I mean, it is that good. Upon further review, the Penguins would not have taken Marc-Andre Fleury first overall. With what we know right now, if the NHL threw all of the 2003 first-rounders in a hat and had the teams select in the same order after seeing the class of 2003 play, the first 11 picks would probably look like this:


Pittsburgh -- Dion Phaneuf
Carolina -- Eric Staal
Florida -- Nathan Horton
Columbus -- Ryan Getzlaf
Buffalo -- Thomas Vanek
San Jose -- Milan Michalek
Nashville -- Jeff Carter
Atlanta -- Nikolai Zherdev
Calgary -- Steve Bernier
Montreal -- Zach Parise
Philadelphia-- Marc-Andre Fleury


I am no self procalimed expert draft anaylizer like Buccicros but I REALLY disagree here. Phanuef and Staal OK yeah I can see that. The other guys are certainly solid players but Fluery has shown big time star potential in the league. When the team becomes better around him he will be #1 right where he was picked. I'm glad CP is gone but not many poeple agree that it was a bad move to trade up for FLuery. Staal won't be missed when we have Malkin and Phanuef wont be missed when we have EJ. So it's all mute.
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Postby Henry Hank on Wed May 03, 2006 10:19 pm

Yeah, I think it's a real stretch to say any of those guys other than Staal and Phaneuf should have been taken ahead of him. Goalies take longer to develop anyway. You've gotta wait more than 3-4 years to make this kind of judgment on Fleury. Still, even with what he's done so far, I don't see how most of those guys have done enough to move ahead of MAF.
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Postby jmh470 on Wed May 03, 2006 10:23 pm

Never been a fan of Buccigross, and he is wildly off base here.
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Postby DelPen on Wed May 03, 2006 10:59 pm

And in 3 years when Fleury is one of the 5 best goalies in the NHL I'm sure his list will be updated. How many people here would trade Fleury for Phaneuf? I sure as hell wouldn't.
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Re: Buccigross: Fleury falls to #11 in the class of 2003

Postby Jesse on Wed May 03, 2006 11:18 pm

Tomas wrote:http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/playoffs2006/columns/story?columnist=buccigross_john&id=2429157

I have commented on the 2003 draft a couple times in this space. Yes, it will go down as one of the deepest first rounds of all time. I mean, it is that good. Upon further review, the Penguins would not have taken Marc-Andre Fleury first overall. With what we know right now, if the NHL threw all of the 2003 first-rounders in a hat and had the teams select in the same order after seeing the class of 2003 play, the first 11 picks would probably look like this:


Pittsburgh -- Dion Phaneuf
Carolina -- Eric Staal
Florida -- Nathan Horton
Columbus -- Ryan Getzlaf
Buffalo -- Thomas Vanek
San Jose -- Milan Michalek
Nashville -- Jeff Carter
Atlanta -- Nikolai Zherdev
Calgary -- Steve Bernier
Montreal -- Zach Parise
Philadelphia-- Marc-Andre Fleury


This is seriously one of the most asinine things I've ever read in my life.

Michalek? Parise? BERNIER????

There is absolutely no way.

Not even Vanek. Ton's of Sabres fans are already complaing about his lazyness and bad attitude.

Fleury will be a great goaltender in the years to come, you'll see bucci regret having ever wrote this article.
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Postby Hockeynut! on Wed May 03, 2006 11:31 pm

Michalek with 35 points and Parise with with a grand total of 32 are better bets than Fleury? Wow, I'll have some of whatever Bucci was smoking.
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Postby MrKnowNothing on Thu May 04, 2006 12:54 am

It's all debatable. There's no reason to redo the draft right now, just three years after the draft. Give it three more years and we'll have a more concrete idea of the cream of an excellent crop.

The 2003 draft is living up to the hype so far. There are many players from that draft who are already productive players and will be mainstays in the league for 10 years.
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Postby Jim on Thu May 04, 2006 6:34 am

When you have a hole to fill people move up... The Penguins needed a goalie for the future. That alone makes MAF's status raise.
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Re: Buccigross: Fleury falls to #11 in the class of 2003

Postby Mad City Mike on Thu May 04, 2006 8:51 am

Tomas wrote:With what we know right now, if the NHL threw all of the 2003 first-rounders in a hat and had the teams select in the same order after seeing the class of 2003 play, the first 11 picks would probably look like this:


Pittsburgh -- Dion Phaneuf


While I disagree with Fleury at 11th, I cannot argue with him when he says the pens would take Phaneuf nymber 1 overall. So would almost anybody, I think.

But where this logic fails is in the order at the top. If you assume Fleury isn't good enough to be taken first, then you must also assume the Pens don't trade up to get Feury. So then you would say Florida takes Phaneuf, Carolina Staal, and the Pens get Nathan Horton. Decent player, but he won't end up in Fleury's class. You can argue that Phaneuf and Staal are better than Fleury, but any of the others is highly debatable.
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Postby Pitts on Thu May 04, 2006 10:00 am

Considering we were 3rd in the draft order, without a trade involved, I'd say Florida would have taken Phaneuf. That would leave Horton to us. But Bucci is very wrong here as I think Fleury would have gone top 5 regardless.
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Postby DelPen on Thu May 04, 2006 10:06 am

I watched the 3rd period og the Ducks-Flames game last night. I jeard Phaneuf's name once. He's good but he did nothing in the game last night when it mattered.
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Re: Buccigross: Fleury falls to #11 in the class of 2003

Postby penny lane on Thu May 04, 2006 10:06 am

Tomas wrote:http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/playoffs2006/columns/story?columnist=buccigross_john&id=2429157

I have commented on the 2003 draft a couple times in this space. Yes, it will go down as one of the deepest first rounds of all time. I mean, it is that good. Upon further review, the Penguins would not have taken Marc-Andre Fleury first overall. With what we know right now, if the NHL threw all of the 2003 first-rounders in a hat and had the teams select in the same order after seeing the class of 2003 play, the first 11 picks would probably look like this:


Pittsburgh -- Dion Phaneuf
Carolina -- Eric Staal
Florida -- Nathan Horton
Columbus -- Ryan Getzlaf
Buffalo -- Thomas Vanek
San Jose -- Milan Michalek
Nashville -- Jeff Carter
Atlanta -- Nikolai Zherdev
Calgary -- Steve Bernier
Montreal -- Zach Parise
Philadelphia-- Marc-Andre Fleury


Last night D Phaneuf was a -3; he's a penguin defensman! :wink:

In 03 everything was needed; who knew pens would get 2 of the
highest rated centers who now need wings. N Horton on Sid's or Malkin's
wing sure would look pretty.
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Postby Pitts on Thu May 04, 2006 11:56 am

DelPen wrote:I watched the 3rd period og the Ducks-Flames game last night. I jeard Phaneuf's name once. He's good but he did nothing in the game last night when it mattered.

I watched the last few Calgary games and the announcers consistently said he was showing rookie playoff jitters. He definitley tailed off in the playoffs.
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Postby PittsburghSportsFan on Thu May 04, 2006 3:48 pm

In my opinion, Fleury still has room for improvement. Rebound control and making the big save when needed for starters. But I also try to keep in mind that he's still young and he has been playing on team who's defense was absolutely dismal for the majority of this past season. While I can understand why his ranking dropped, I don't fully agree with it.
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Postby ivand87 on Thu May 04, 2006 6:49 pm

It is so stupid for Buccigross to compare the performances of Fleury with these other guys'.

First of all, Fleury is a 20-year old goaltender... on the Pittsburgh Penguins! We've seen his potential and when he's been on, he's been great. It'll take 2 or 3 years for his game to really develop, as it always does for goaltenders.

Sheeeeit, wait til he's in his mid-20's to compare him with those other guys. Goalies take years to develop, and if they have the defense that Fleury has in front of them, it's even longer.

Dumb ass Bucci. He should have gotten his head out of his ass - his only hockey presence now is on the Internet cuz he chose to stay with ESPN just like Melrose. They should have been hired by OLN to do a hockey wrap up show. They should have called it, "NHL2night", that's original right? But obviously ranking draftees is a little too much for him.
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Postby Fast B on Fri May 05, 2006 12:16 am

Jake wrote:Michalek has had 3 knee surgeries since draft day. No thanks.

Bernier and Parise are equally laughable.


Have you ever even seen Michalek or Bernier play? I'm not saying I'd take either of them over Fleury, but these guys are not trash - especially Bernier, who, you'll recall, is still a rookie.
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Postby scals37 on Fri May 05, 2006 3:56 am

there isnt another goalie that has shown he is capable of being the next best in the net....he is one of the best ive seen in a while, and he isnt working with the best defense in the league--as for the draft, we were rebuilding at the time, and we logically started with the goalie... just wait till this kid is in his prime--
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Postby Pitts on Fri May 05, 2006 10:55 am

scals37 wrote:there isnt another goalie that has shown he is capable of being the next best in the net....

Roberto Luongo. Ryan Miller doesn't look too shabby Either. As well as Henrik Lunqvist. Fleury's got some competition now.
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Postby Draftnik on Fri May 05, 2006 12:29 pm

Pitts wrote:
scals37 wrote:there isnt another goalie that has shown he is capable of being the next best in the net....

Roberto Luongo. Ryan Miller doesn't look too shabby Either. As well as Henrik Lunqvist. Fleury's got some competition now.


Cam Ward is quietly having a great NHL playoff debut. Bryzgalof, while a bit older is very impressive as well. As a matter of fact most of the remaining playoff goalies with the exception of Brodeur, Roloson, & Theodore are pretty young in terms of NHL experience.

I don't understand why people get upset over one man's opinion.

One thing that can be objectively concluded from this class is the new CBA works against the longer development curve of goalies. Phaneuf and Staal provided max salary performance on their rookie contracts. If Horton's shoulder injuries subside he is on the same path as well. Their teams will get 7 years of solid - great performance out of these guys while their rights are restricted. The Pens will not get that out of MAF and by the time he is ready to hit his stride he likely will be a UFA. Under the new model it makes less sense to draft slower developing prospects with high picks and have them develop in the NHL while their FA clock ticks away.
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Postby Pitts on Fri May 05, 2006 1:13 pm

Draftnik wrote:
Pitts wrote:
scals37 wrote:there isnt another goalie that has shown he is capable of being the next best in the net....

Roberto Luongo. Ryan Miller doesn't look too shabby Either. As well as Henrik Lunqvist. Fleury's got some competition now.


Cam Ward is quietly having a great NHL playoff debut. Bryzgalof, while a bit older is very impressive as well. As a matter of fact most of the remaining playoff goalies with the exception of Brodeur, Roloson, & Theodore are pretty young in terms of NHL experience.

I don't understand why people get upset over one man's opinion.

One thing that can be objectively concluded from this class is the new CBA works against the longer development curve of goalies. Phaneuf and Staal provided max salary performance on their rookie contracts. If Horton's shoulder injuries subside he is on the same path as well. Their teams will get 7 years of solid - great performance out of these guys while their rights are restricted. The Pens will not get that out of MAF and by the time he is ready to hit his stride he likely will be a UFA. Under the new model it makes less sense to draft slower developing prospects with high picks and have them develop in the NHL while their FA clock ticks away.

And that is probably why the NHL will become more and more of a young man's sport over the next decade. Teams will want to maximize their investment by getting these picks to the NHL as soon as possible. Older UFA's will become less in demand and most will probably retire by the age of 33.
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Postby bh on Fri May 05, 2006 2:15 pm

quote]
Older UFA's will become less in demand and most will probably retire by the age of 33.[/quote]

or play for less money......
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Postby MrKnowNothing on Fri May 05, 2006 2:47 pm

Draftnik wrote: Under the new model it makes less sense to draft slower developing prospects with high picks and have them develop in the NHL while their FA clock ticks away.


Which is yet another in the long list of stupid moves you can chart up for the Penguins management in developing prospects.
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Postby Draftnik on Fri May 05, 2006 9:34 pm

Pitts wrote:
DelPen wrote:I watched the 3rd period og the Ducks-Flames game last night. I jeard Phaneuf's name once. He's good but he did nothing in the game last night when it mattered.

I watched the last few Calgary games and the announcers consistently said he was showing rookie playoff jitters. He definitley tailed off in the playoffs.


Phaneuf played with a broken foot.
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Postby Peter on Fri May 05, 2006 9:44 pm

Really, why do you people care?

And why are you protecting Fleury? Check his stats, he is not an elite goalie yet.

Look, the penguins have sucked for the past few years. There are going to be insults or at the very least they will be down on quite a few lists. Why does it bother you so much?
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