Pierre saying Malkin to Kings for Kopitar, Dustin Brown

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Postby kirk on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:34 pm

Jesse wrote:This is an "out of sight - out of mind" argument. People forgot what Crosby was capable of because he was missing for a good part of the year.

Sidney Crosby is one of the most dynamic and competitive hockey players I've ever seen. His fire is so great that he can be downright embarassing sometimes with his antics.

People forget that Crosby was roughly 10-12 points ahead in the scoring race when he got injured. It took Lecavalier nearly 4-5 games to surpass him after the HAS.

Malkin nearly won the scoring title this year and he still couldn't get close to the 120 big ones that Crosby put up last year.

Crosby has a sixth sense about the game and dynamic vision that Malkin will never have. It's innate. Malkin can bury the puck and charge through defenders, but Crosby can lift a team like no one I've ever seen. When the Penguins were down and out against the Red Wings and couldn't score a goal, he elevated his game to a level that I've never seen.

Sure, Malkin had a great regular season with Sid out, but even then, he never got to the level of intensity and gamesmanship that Crosby has.

The man is a born leader. Malkin doesn't posses that quality.


Crosby got 120 points last season with Malkin on his team. Malkin did the bulk of his damage without Sid and as the singular target of everyone's attention. It does again give rise to the question of how the Pens would have fared if Malkin had been lost to injury and Sid had been left to center Malone and Sykora.

You know, I don't want to get into the Sid versus Malkin thing per se, but I actually see Malkin as the nexus for this team. When he is on, the Pens win consistently, regardless of how others including Sid (if he's around) perform (goaltending being an obvious exception). When have the Pens won consistently when Geno is off? I hope that people keep that in mind in their haste to trade him.
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Postby Pitts on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:35 pm

kirk wrote:When Sid was out, Therrien had no choice but to use him like that, to give him consistent, quality shifts at even strength, to use him a little on the PK, and to put him in his comfort zone on the PP. With Sid back and Therrien's philosophy of playing fourth line guys 5-7 minutes a game, something had to give. It was Malkin, who may as well have been walking around with a name tag that said "Sidney's *****" a lot of the time.

In a way, you are supporting my argument then that Malkin is a #1, not a #2 and needs to play and get paid like one. The Pen's already have one.

And, what if Malkin does in fact feel like Sidney's *****? Maybe he don't wanna play that game no mo? (Not that I know that, Malkin's Fan Club!)

I see your point about Therrien playing the 3rd and 4th line less to increase Malkin's ice, but really, he will still always be playing 2nd fiddle in every area of the game in Pittsburgh. Crosby will require more and more ice time as he matures just as Malkin will. Are you comfortable running both of them at 25 minutes a game for 82 games a season? When, then do the other lines get to play? What about Staal's 3rd line?
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Postby kirk on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:36 pm

Kovy27 wrote:
Jesse wrote:This is an "out of sight - out of mind" argument. People forgot what Crosby was capable of because he was missing for a good part of the year.

Sidney Crosby is one of the most dynamic and competitive hockey players I've ever seen. His fire is so great that he can be downright embarassing sometimes with his antics.

People forget that Crosby was roughly 10-12 points ahead in the scoring race when he got injured. It took Lecavalier nearly 4-5 games to surpass him after the HAS.

Malkin nearly won the scoring title this year and he still couldn't get close to the 120 big ones that Crosby put up last year.

Crosby has a sixth sense about the game and dynamic vision that Malkin will never have. It's innate. Malkin can bury the puck and charge through defenders, but Crosby can lift a team like no one I've ever seen. When the Penguins were down and out against the Red Wings and couldn't score a goal, he elevated his game to a level that I've never seen.

Sure, Malkin had a great regular season with Sid out, but even then, he never got to the level of intensity and gamesmanship that Crosby has.

The man is a born leader. Malkin doesn't posses that quality.


Jesse has common sense.

I would do Phaneuf for Malkin in a heart beat. The freight train baby.


I think that Sutter might do that also. For all of their talent and with Phaneuf, Calgary is a one and done type of team. Losing Phaneuf would hurt them a lot. I suspect that Keenan being able to play Malkin and Iginla together 25 minutes a night and having Malkin to direct his PP would more than make up for it. And, where would that leave the Pens . . . with Phaneuf and Staal centering the second line.
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Postby Pitts on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:37 pm

Troy Loney wrote:Crosby to Chicago for Toews and Kane.

O'rly?

Hmmm, something more to think about! :wink:
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Postby newarenanow on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:37 pm

Kraftster wrote:The incredulous way that so many are responding to these Malkin trade talks are getting a bit annoying. If the Pens hadn't traded for Hossa, we probably wouldn't be having this conversation, but, the bottom line is, that happened, and, as a result, the conversation of whether to keep Malkin or not has simply been accelerated. It was coming somewhere down the line anyway.

To suggest that a valid argument can't be made that the Pens would be equally suited to compete long term by keeping Hossa and trading Malkin after next season is foolish. Taking this particular rumor which came from a reputable source as an example, I think its far from clear that the Pens would be so much better with Malkin than Hossa, Orpik, Brown, Kopitar, and some blue chhipper for the next 4-6 years. At least, in my opinion, its close enough that people who entertain the thought of trading Malkin shouldn't be treated like yinzer bandwagon fans.

Some people have really enjoyed watching Crosby play with a world class talent in Hossa. The bottom line is, Hossa probably won't be staying around if Malkin remains beyond next season. We all know what Malkin did this year, but, there are some out there that are debating whether or not having a stacked first line with some extra money to go into the D and depth might be better for the team. There's nothing wrong with that.

Anyway, I rambled, but, the point is, its far from absurd to talk about this topic.


Thank you. You summed up my point very well.
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Postby kirk on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:37 pm

Pitts wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:
newarenanow wrote:
superconan wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:Everytime Malkin steps on the ice, you feel a goal is going to happen for the Penguins.


Everytime?


Yeah, I wish I felt that way more during the Finals when Geno was on the ice.


In case you didn't know or notice. The kid was playing with a terrible flu. His one linemate had a broken finger and his other linemate was playing a broken nose. There isn't much a guy can do by himself against an almost inpenetrable Detroit defense. Not saying Crosby had it made, but it was much easier for him to have a healthy Hossa playing alongside him.

And here, you've been telling us all along that Malkin can win games by himself! Which is it?


Ah, the red herring argument . . .
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Postby HeyNow71871929 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:38 pm

newarenanow wrote:My question is, where is Sid getting all of his assits from if no one can play with him?


Well anyone they put, or try to put, on his line is expected to score. Nobody is questioning his playmaking, he can make Colby Armstrong look good driving to the net. The matter at hand is: playing alongside Malkin vs. playing alongside Crosby. To me, it seems as if Crosby is at his best when playing alongisde fairly decent wingers. Malkin is good by himself most times, can take over a game by himself, and doesn't need a Hossa to play on his wing to be successful.
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Postby kirk on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:38 pm

Mad City Mike wrote:
penny lane wrote:
Some friend :wink:
Can't believe they would still be friendly if this is how
Pierre treats those off record conversations.


What if Shero asked him to leak it?


Then Shero is a lot dumber than I ever thought.
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Postby newarenanow on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:38 pm

kirk wrote:
Jesse wrote:This is an "out of sight - out of mind" argument. People forgot what Crosby was capable of because he was missing for a good part of the year.

Sidney Crosby is one of the most dynamic and competitive hockey players I've ever seen. His fire is so great that he can be downright embarassing sometimes with his antics.

People forget that Crosby was roughly 10-12 points ahead in the scoring race when he got injured. It took Lecavalier nearly 4-5 games to surpass him after the HAS.

Malkin nearly won the scoring title this year and he still couldn't get close to the 120 big ones that Crosby put up last year.

Crosby has a sixth sense about the game and dynamic vision that Malkin will never have. It's innate. Malkin can bury the puck and charge through defenders, but Crosby can lift a team like no one I've ever seen. When the Penguins were down and out against the Red Wings and couldn't score a goal, he elevated his game to a level that I've never seen.

Sure, Malkin had a great regular season with Sid out, but even then, he never got to the level of intensity and gamesmanship that Crosby has.

The man is a born leader. Malkin doesn't posses that quality.


Crosby got 120 points last season with Malkin on his team. Malkin did the bulk of his damage without Sid and as the singular target of everyone's attention. It does again give rise to the question of how the Pens would have fared if Malkin had been lost to injury and Sid had been left to center Malone and Sykora.

You know, I don't want to get into the Sid versus Malkin thing per se, but I actually see Malkin as the nexus for this team. When he is on, the Pens win consistently, regardless of how others including Sid (if he's around) perform (goaltending being an obvious exception). When have the Pens won consistently when Geno is off? I hope that people keep that in mind in their haste to trade him.


Sid had 102 pts his rookie year with a crap team w/o Malkin.

As for the second part, Sid hasn't had the oppurtunity to run the ship w/o Malkin with this makeup of this team. That's unfair to compare that.
Last edited by newarenanow on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Kovy27 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:39 pm

newarenanow wrote:Sid had 102 pts his rookie year with a crap team w/o Malkin.


Hilbert and Armstrong as his wings.
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Postby Maagwa on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:40 pm

Get rid of Crosby.... sign Jagr
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Postby AlexPKeaton on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:40 pm

kirk wrote:
Kovy27 wrote:
Jesse wrote:This is an "out of sight - out of mind" argument. People forgot what Crosby was capable of because he was missing for a good part of the year.

Sidney Crosby is one of the most dynamic and competitive hockey players I've ever seen. His fire is so great that he can be downright embarassing sometimes with his antics.

People forget that Crosby was roughly 10-12 points ahead in the scoring race when he got injured. It took Lecavalier nearly 4-5 games to surpass him after the HAS.

Malkin nearly won the scoring title this year and he still couldn't get close to the 120 big ones that Crosby put up last year.

Crosby has a sixth sense about the game and dynamic vision that Malkin will never have. It's innate. Malkin can bury the puck and charge through defenders, but Crosby can lift a team like no one I've ever seen. When the Penguins were down and out against the Red Wings and couldn't score a goal, he elevated his game to a level that I've never seen.

Sure, Malkin had a great regular season with Sid out, but even then, he never got to the level of intensity and gamesmanship that Crosby has.

The man is a born leader. Malkin doesn't posses that quality.


Jesse has common sense.

I would do Phaneuf for Malkin in a heart beat. The freight train baby.


I think that Sutter might do that also. For all of their talent and with Phaneuf, Calgary is a one and done type of team. Losing Phaneuf would hurt them a lot. I suspect that Keenan being able to play Malkin and Iginla together 25 minutes a night and having Malkin to direct his PP would more than make up for it. And, where would that leave the Pens . . . with Phaneuf and Staal centering the second line.


Malkin is my favorite player on the Pens, but I do not think I could contain my man-love for Phaneuf if we had him (he would be a GOD in this town). However, there is one *major* problem with this: Jordan Staal trying to center a scoring line.
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Postby Pipes Hochuli on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:41 pm

newarenanow wrote:My question is, where is Sid getting all of his assits from if no one can play with him?


mark recchi's shinpads
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Postby Kovy27 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:41 pm

HeyNow71871929 wrote:
newarenanow wrote:My question is, where is Sid getting all of his assits from if no one can play with him?


Well anyone they put, or try to put, on his line is expected to score. Nobody is questioning his playmaking, he can make Colby Armstrong look good driving to the net. The matter at hand is: playing alongside Malkin vs. playing alongside Crosby. To me, it seems as if Crosby is at his best when playing alongisde fairly decent wingers. Malkin is good by himself most times, can take over a game by himself, and doesn't need a Hossa to play on his wing to be successful.


I guess Sykora and Malone are garbage.
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Postby shmenguin on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:41 pm

HeyNow71871929 wrote:
newarenanow wrote:My question is, where is Sid getting all of his assits from if no one can play with him?


Well anyone they put, or try to put, on his line is expected to score. Nobody is questioning his playmaking, he can make Colby Armstrong look good driving to the net. The matter at hand is: playing alongside Malkin vs. playing alongside Crosby. To me, it seems as if Crosby is at his best when playing alongisde fairly decent wingers. Malkin is good by himself most times, can take over a game by himself, and doesn't need a Hossa to play on his wing to be successful.


come on. read your last post again. crosby put up 120 playing with mark recchi, colby armstrong and nils ekman. both crosby and malkin would be successful no matter whose on the wing
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Postby newarenanow on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:41 pm

HeyNow71871929 wrote:
newarenanow wrote:My question is, where is Sid getting all of his assits from if no one can play with him?


Well anyone they put, or try to put, on his line is expected to score. Nobody is questioning his playmaking, he can make Colby Armstrong look good driving to the net. The matter at hand is: playing alongside Malkin vs. playing alongside Crosby. To me, it seems as if Crosby is at his best when playing alongisde fairly decent wingers. Malkin is good by himself most times, can take over a game by himself, and doesn't need a Hossa to play on his wing to be successful.


But you said Malkin didn't play well during the final two series because Malone had a broken nose and Sykora had a broken finger.
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Postby Steve on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:42 pm

kirk wrote:
Jesse wrote:This is an "out of sight - out of mind" argument. People forgot what Crosby was capable of because he was missing for a good part of the year.

Sidney Crosby is one of the most dynamic and competitive hockey players I've ever seen. His fire is so great that he can be downright embarassing sometimes with his antics.

People forget that Crosby was roughly 10-12 points ahead in the scoring race when he got injured. It took Lecavalier nearly 4-5 games to surpass him after the HAS.

Malkin nearly won the scoring title this year and he still couldn't get close to the 120 big ones that Crosby put up last year.

Crosby has a sixth sense about the game and dynamic vision that Malkin will never have. It's innate. Malkin can bury the puck and charge through defenders, but Crosby can lift a team like no one I've ever seen. When the Penguins were down and out against the Red Wings and couldn't score a goal, he elevated his game to a level that I've never seen.

Sure, Malkin had a great regular season with Sid out, but even then, he never got to the level of intensity and gamesmanship that Crosby has.

The man is a born leader. Malkin doesn't posses that quality.


Crosby got 120 points last season with Malkin on his team. Malkin did the bulk of his damage without Sid and as the singular target of everyone's attention. It does again give rise to the question of how the Pens would have fared if Malkin had been lost to injury and Sid had been left to center Malone and Sykora.

You know, I don't want to get into the Sid versus Malkin thing per se, but I actually see Malkin as the nexus for this team. When he is on, the Pens win consistently, regardless of how others including Sid (if he's around) perform (goaltending being an obvious exception). When have the Pens won consistently when Geno is off? I hope that people keep that in mind in their haste to trade him.


The arguments are getting very circular.

Malkin is usually "on", as is Sid. That means you have two world class players who are clicking, makes it a tough opponent for another team.

Malkin is our MVP this year. Downplaying what he did is ludicrous. As is suggesting that Sid couldn't carry this team if Malkin was the player who was injured. That's what world class players such as Malkin or Sid do, when they are faced with a challenge - they respond. Both of them have proved that over and over in their brief careers so far.
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Postby kirk on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:42 pm

Steve wrote:
kirk wrote:
superconan wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:
newarenanow wrote:
superconan wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:Everytime Malkin steps on the ice, you feel a goal is going to happen for the Penguins.


Everytime?


Yeah, I wish I felt that way more during the Finals when Geno was on the ice.


In case you didn't know or notice. The kid was playing with a terrible flu. His one linemate had a broken finger and his other linemate was playing a broken nose. There isn't much a guy can do by himself against an almost inpenetrable Detroit defense. Not saying Crosby had it made, but it was much easier for him to have a healthy Hossa playing alongside him.


Everyone is banged up and hurting by the finals. I thought Crosby had the tougher match-ups anyway.


And he had Hossa, which begs the question once again: If Sid is the best player in the world, someone who can make just about any linemate better, then why does he need Hossa where someone like Malkin can be dominant with Malone and Sykora?


Perhaps it has everything to do with chemistry, and nothing to do with Sid being better than Malkin or vice-versa.


So, then Malkin has chemistry with a greater variety of players? That pretty much confirms HeyNow's contention as to why Malkin is so important, because unlike Sid, who through his play asks his linemates to keep up with him, Malkin can make just about anyone look better on the wing than they are.
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Postby Pipes Hochuli on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:44 pm

there was already a known chemistry between sykora and malkin, if that means anything
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Postby Kraftster on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:44 pm

HeyNow71871929 wrote:
kirk wrote:
André wrote:
kirk wrote:Why is it that Sid needs a great winger while Geno can be instrumental in turning a guy like Sykora play like he did 8 years ago and a guy like Malone into someone who likely has priced himself out of Pittsburgh? Honestly, it makes me wonder how this year would have played out if Geno, rather than Sid, had missed 1/3 of the year with a high ankle sprain.


What? Sid's been with crappy wingers (mostly Recchi and a checking forward) until the Hossa trade.

Malkin had Staal his first year and this year Malone and Sykora, which are very good wingers for a playmaking center.

I've mostly disagreed with the negative posts on Malkin in this thread but that was just too off in the other direction, imo.


Let's see . . .

Staal only has thrived on Geno's wing. He was **** with Sid.

Sykora was **** with Sid and then time warped back to Sykora circa 2000 on Geno's wing.

Malone was spotty on Sid's wing and probably has priced himself out of Pittsburgh after half a season on Geno's wing.

Perhaps all of this begs the question as to why Sid needs Hossa?

The answer IMO is that Sid plays the game at two speeds, high tempo and higher tempo. A great player like Hossa (or even Malkin out of position) will get points with Sid. A guy who plays up tempo hockey, like an Army or a Talbot, can play above himself when he gets hot hands. Sykora didn't fit that. Malone and Staal couldn't keep up. Malkin, by contrast, adapts his game to best utilize his wingers and to make 2.5M type of guys into 5M performers.


Correct. Basically, Crosby's wingers have to play up to Crosby's strengths and be able to keep up with Crosby. As for wingers playing alongside Malkin, Malkin can adjust his game so as to better fit his wingers and bring the absolute best out of them. Hence, Sid needs a top tier winger, whereas Malkin can play along side second tier wingers and make them look like top tier wingers.


Aren't we overblowing what Sykora and Malone did a bit here? Top Tier wingers? I think that's stretching things a bit. Malone upgraded his point total by 7-10 points, and, I think everyone would agree that the played his best, most consistent season (from start to finish). Sykora upgrades his point total by 10.

Additionally, To then suggest that the job Crosby did elevating Armstrong's game is somehow separate and distinguisable because he had a hot hand and plays at a high tempo is underselling that accomplisment a bit, don't you think?

I will say that I have also thought a lot about the "who fits with Sid" issue, but, aren't you basically asking him to "play down" or "slow down" to lower talent's level? I mean, you are knocking him because he can't "adapt" his game, which, in this context, basically seems to mean "play down to where others can keep up."
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Postby HeyNow71871929 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:46 pm

Kovy27 wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:
newarenanow wrote:My question is, where is Sid getting all of his assits from if no one can play with him?


Well anyone they put, or try to put, on his line is expected to score. Nobody is questioning his playmaking, he can make Colby Armstrong look good driving to the net. The matter at hand is: playing alongside Malkin vs. playing alongside Crosby. To me, it seems as if Crosby is at his best when playing alongisde fairly decent wingers. Malkin is good by himself most times, can take over a game by himself, and doesn't need a Hossa to play on his wing to be successful.


I guess Sykora and Malone are garbage.


Did I once say they were garbage? What I did mean to say is that they are nowhere near the talent level of Hossa. Wow, you love to read in way too much don't you?

I guess if you're a winger whose not as good as Hossa, they must be garbage then. :roll:
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Postby Steve on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:46 pm

kirk wrote:
Steve wrote:
kirk wrote:
superconan wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:
newarenanow wrote:
superconan wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:Everytime Malkin steps on the ice, you feel a goal is going to happen for the Penguins.


Everytime?


Yeah, I wish I felt that way more during the Finals when Geno was on the ice.


In case you didn't know or notice. The kid was playing with a terrible flu. His one linemate had a broken finger and his other linemate was playing a broken nose. There isn't much a guy can do by himself against an almost inpenetrable Detroit defense. Not saying Crosby had it made, but it was much easier for him to have a healthy Hossa playing alongside him.


Everyone is banged up and hurting by the finals. I thought Crosby had the tougher match-ups anyway.


And he had Hossa, which begs the question once again: If Sid is the best player in the world, someone who can make just about any linemate better, then why does he need Hossa where someone like Malkin can be dominant with Malone and Sykora?


Perhaps it has everything to do with chemistry, and nothing to do with Sid being better than Malkin or vice-versa.


So, then Malkin has chemistry with a greater variety of players? That pretty much confirms HeyNow's contention as to why Malkin is so important, because unlike Sid, who through his play asks his linemates to keep up with him, Malkin can make just about anyone look better on the wing than they are.


He asks what through his play? What are you talking about?

Malkin is one of the few players in this league who can make just about anyone look good on his line- I definitely agree.

So can Sid. Just ask Hilbert or Colby Armstrong.
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Postby kirk on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:46 pm

Pitts wrote:
kirk wrote:When Sid was out, Therrien had no choice but to use him like that, to give him consistent, quality shifts at even strength, to use him a little on the PK, and to put him in his comfort zone on the PP. With Sid back and Therrien's philosophy of playing fourth line guys 5-7 minutes a game, something had to give. It was Malkin, who may as well have been walking around with a name tag that said "Sidney's *****" a lot of the time.

In a way, you are supporting my argument then that Malkin is a #1, not a #2 and needs to play and get paid like one. The Pen's already have one.

And, what if Malkin does in fact feel like Sidney's b*tch? Maybe he don't wanna play that game no mo? (Not that I know that, Malkin's Fan Club!)

I see your point about Therrien playing the 3rd and 4th line less to increase Malkin's ice, but really, he will still always be playing 2nd fiddle in every area of the game in Pittsburgh. Crosby will require more and more ice time as he matures just as Malkin will. Are you comfortable running both of them at 25 minutes a game for 82 games a season? When, then do the other lines get to play? What about Staal's 3rd line?


Pitts, what you've spelled out is more an indictment of Therrien than a comment about the impossibility of having two quote unquote #1 centers. John Tortorella had no problem in Tampa playing Prince Vinny 22-23 minutes a night and Richards for about 24 minutes a night (save the "look where it got him comment, because that was about goaltending and an unwillingness from ownership to spend to the cap). And, you can have two balance PP units and be excellent, something Montreal, the top PP unit in the regular season, showed. Now, all it takes to achieve a co-#1 on the ice scenario is a willingness on behalf of Therrien to play fourth line players 2-4 minutes a night.
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Postby Pipes Hochuli on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:47 pm

steve, i think you can ask any player in the league that question
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Postby HeyNow71871929 on Wed Jun 11, 2008 3:47 pm

newarenanow wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:
newarenanow wrote:My question is, where is Sid getting all of his assits from if no one can play with him?


Well anyone they put, or try to put, on his line is expected to score. Nobody is questioning his playmaking, he can make Colby Armstrong look good driving to the net. The matter at hand is: playing alongside Malkin vs. playing alongside Crosby. To me, it seems as if Crosby is at his best when playing alongisde fairly decent wingers. Malkin is good by himself most times, can take over a game by himself, and doesn't need a Hossa to play on his wing to be successful.


But you said Malkin didn't play well during the final two series because Malone had a broken nose and Sykora had a broken finger.


And most importantly, the fact that he was suffering from a terrible flu. Try playing any sport, let alone a high octane intense sport such as hockey with a flu, and you will find out how physically straining it is.
HeyNow71871929
 

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