Pierre saying Malkin to Kings for Kopitar, Dustin Brown

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Postby Stoosh on Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:28 am

Might as well throw my two cents into the ring...

If you look back over the last twenty or thirty years, just about every franchise that was able to sustain a legitimate Cup contender for any substantial length of time all had one common denominator - they all had two world-class centers.

There are exceptions, of course (the Devils). But for the most part, teams that sustained a Cup-contending core did so with two world-class centers at the top of their depth charts.

Edmonton had Gretzky and Messier. Pittsburgh had Lemieux and Francis. Colorado had Sakic and Forsberg. Detroit had Yzerman and Federov.

What is NOT a common denominator among those teams is the necessary presence of a couple of world-class wingers to play alongside them. Pittsburgh obviously had Stevens, Jagr, Tocchet and Recchi - marquee players at the time. Edmonton had Jari Kurri and Glenn Anderson, but they also had guys like Ken Linseman and Pat Hughes - not exactly earth-shattering names.

Colorado won it's first Cup with Valeri Kamensky, Claude Lemieux, Scott Young and Adam Deadmarsh on the wings. When they won their second in 2000-01, they did so with Hejduk, Drury, Tanguay and Podein. Detroit had Shanahan, Slava Kozlov, Darren McCarty and Martin LaPointe for its first two Cups, and then mixed in some older veterans like Hull and Robitaille along with the emerging Tomas Holmstrom in 2001-02.

My point is that I think Pittsburgh has the same sort of thing going here with Crosby and Malkin. You could make the case that they are two of the best three centers in the game right now, and each of them make their linemates better. Replacing a guy like Hossa isn't easy, but it's probably a hell of a lot easier than replacing a guy like Malkin.

As long as Crosby and Malkin have their own lines, this will always be a team capable of rolling three lines capable of scoring points - especially when you factor in Staal's presence on the third line and eventual presence on the power play. I'm going to have a hard time breaking that up for anything, given what history tells us about teams that can keep two world-class centers together.
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Postby Kovy27 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:32 am

Stoosh...I completely agree. Malkin should be center piece of this team...but times have changed with the Cap...that's where I worry. The Colorado team is a great example though. They had an all world goaltender in the net though.

This thread turned into a Crosby vs. Malkin thing...and it is not...

People just don't understand that Crosby is the team leader and the center piece of the franchise. He will never be in trade discussions unless he wants to leave.
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Postby Guinness on Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:44 am

I agree 100%, Stoosh... as long as the wingers don't have to be minor-leaguers as opposed to "second-tier" wingers. The cap changes things from all of those teams.

The only way I can see trading Malkin, aside from his demands being too high and necessitating it (which I'm not saying has happened or will), is if the return would be overwhelming. I'm talking 3 NHL'ers, with 2 of them being 1st line (o &/or d) types, and the third being on the verge... plus, picks... multiple picks, and first rounders at that. (And before someone says it, please keep in mind that those 3 NHL'ers will not only take the place of Malkin's salary but also 2 other roster players).

Depth and systems win in today's NHL. Someone posted Detroit's salaries, or the top 3 and the noted that the remaining salaries were all at or under $4 million... There was no question as to what team was the best in the league this year.
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Postby newarenanow on Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:54 am

Kovy27 wrote:Stoosh...I completely agree. Malkin should be center piece of this team...but times have changed with the Cap...that's where I worry. The Colorado team is a great example though. They had an all world goaltender in the net though.

This thread turned into a Crosby vs. Malkin thing...and it is not...

People just don't understand that Crosby is the team leader and the center piece of the franchise. He will never be in trade discussions unless he wants to leave.


And to add to this, the major difference is the salary cap now. I believe that Sid and Malkin are 1 and 1A in the world on the ice, and both are elite talents which I hope we can keep on this team forever.

The whole issue is (and it's all speculation) how much does Malkin want? If he is demanding $11-12M, and we have the opportunity to sign Hossa for $6-7M, then you have to start looking at these scenarios.

Do you pay Malkin almost 40% higher salary than your captain and a guy that can also be considered the best player in the world? Can you afford the talent that is necessary to win a championship when appr. 40% of your cap space is tied into 2 players (almost 50% if you sign Hossa).

Unlike the past, there are limits on what you can spend, and that is why there may be an issue. Who knows, maybe Malkin takes a comparable salary as Sid's, and we have them both locked up forever.

No knock on Malkin, but this team is Sid's team, and rightfully so IMO.
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Postby czwalga on Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:54 am

For what it's worth my buddies girlfriend works at gonchars house. (trains horses/watches his kid) He was over there yesterday and gonchar said that no one knows whose going to be signed not even the players have any idea.

He also said geno was looking for sid type of money not the max. Also to quote him geno's like a big dog he'll do whatever gonchar tells him to do. So if gonchar wants to stay in pittsburgh so will geno. He's also heading back to russia today or tomorrow after the awards. Gonchar is leaving as soon as his kids out of school
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Postby Eismann on Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:58 am

Guinness wrote:I agree 100%, Stoosh... as long as the wingers don't have to be minor-leaguers as opposed to "second-tier" wingers. The cap changes things from all of those teams.

The only way I can see trading Malkin, aside from his demands being too high and necessitating it (which I'm not saying has happened or will), is if the return would be overwhelming. I'm talking 3 NHL'ers, with 2 of them being 1st line (o &/or d) types, and the third being on the verge... plus, picks... multiple picks, and first rounders at that. (And before someone says it, please keep in mind that those 3 NHL'ers will not only take the place of Malkin's salary but also 2 other roster players).

Depth and systems win in today's NHL. Someone posted Detroit's salaries, or the top 3 and the noted that the remaining salaries were all at or under $4 million... There was no question as to what team was the best in the league this year.


And I'd say system is the top banana. Look at the contributions guys like Helm, Samuelsson, Cleary, Hudler, et al had for Det. True, Datsyuk and Zet were overall scoring leaders, but those others scored huge goals in the finals and played tremendously in Det's system.

All things considered, I defer to keeping the strength up the middle and supplementing - as RS did this very year - when possible and appropriate.
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Postby Stoosh on Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:02 am

Kovy27 wrote:Stoosh...I completely agree. Malkin should be center piece of this team...but times have changed with the Cap...that's where I worry. The Colorado team is a great example though. They had an all world goaltender in the net though.

This thread turned into a Crosby vs. Malkin thing...and it is not...

People just don't understand that Crosby is the team leader and the center piece of the franchise. He will never be in trade discussions unless he wants to leave.


Even with the cap, I think it's still going to be possible to keep two world-class players like Crosby and Malkin AND still have room for Fleury AND probably Staal.

In order for this to happen, the team HAS to continue to do two things:

1. make smart investments with veterans via free agency or trade. Gonchar even at $5M is a steal. Sykora at $2.5M is a steal. Gill is a steal given how he fit into this system. These are the players that occassionally have to be rotated in and out of the system and filled with prospects or better value picks via free agency or trade.

2. ABSOLUTLEY must continue to draft well, develop well, and continue to get solid contributions at this level from younger and/or cheaper role players. I'm talking about guys like Talbot, Kennedy, Letang, Scuderi, Dupuis, Hall, Taffe...those are all guys whose cap hits this past year fell well below $1 million each. These are the players that help offset the hits that the more expensive players take on the cap.

Down the road, these could be guys like Caputi, Goligoski, Bortuzzo, etc.

As long as the Pens continue to do this, they should have a much easier time getting the economics to work.

Crosby and Malkin provide something for this team that very few other NHL teams have. That's why I think the Pens are much smarter if they keep those two together and build around them as opposed to trading Malkin for a handful of players who will put them in the same situation just a couple of years down the road again, anyway.
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Postby Ginger on Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:23 am

Stoosh - thank you so much! Your post brought reason into this discussion & I agree with your thinking. I think fans panic at that big bad thing we all have to deal with - THE CAP.

I don't think it's going to be as big a stumbling block as most people have stated. The negotiations of important players in an organization will find ways of circumventing wording etc. These people are masters & will find ways of getting around those limitations if the stakes are high enough. I do believe that the two big stakes for the Pens are Sid & Geno & we know Sid isn't going anywhere. So focus will be on Geno, first & foremost & while Hossa is a 'great to have' player, he hasn't been a part of the Penguins like the other two I've just mentioned.

There have been so many little things dropped by pertinent people in the organization. Ray saying he was going to try & keep as many as he could to play with Crosby & Malkin. In other words, those two are the foundation of the club. Mario too, saying they were the nucleus of the new Pens. So do you remove the nucleus? He didn't say Crosby in the singular - he said (& I quote) Sid & Geno.

They'll do whatever it takes to get him signed & settled in Pittsburgh.
KTHXBAI. :)
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Postby PenguinHockeyFanatic on Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:28 am

Stoosh wrote:
Kovy27 wrote:Stoosh...I completely agree. Malkin should be center piece of this team...but times have changed with the Cap...that's where I worry. The Colorado team is a great example though. They had an all world goaltender in the net though.

This thread turned into a Crosby vs. Malkin thing...and it is not...

People just don't understand that Crosby is the team leader and the center piece of the franchise. He will never be in trade discussions unless he wants to leave.


Even with the cap, I think it's still going to be possible to keep two world-class players like Crosby and Malkin AND still have room for Fleury AND probably Staal.

In order for this to happen, the team HAS to continue to do two things:

1. make smart investments with veterans via free agency or trade. Gonchar even at $5M is a steal. Sykora at $2.5M is a steal. Gill is a steal given how he fit into this system. These are the players that occassionally have to be rotated in and out of the system and filled with prospects or better value picks via free agency or trade.

2. ABSOLUTLEY must continue to draft well, develop well, and continue to get solid contributions at this level from younger and/or cheaper role players. I'm talking about guys like Talbot, Kennedy, Letang, Scuderi, Dupuis, Hall, Taffe...those are all guys whose cap hits this past year fell well below $1 million each. These are the players that help offset the hits that the more expensive players take on the cap.

Down the road, these could be guys like Caputi, Goligoski, Bortuzzo, etc.

As long as the Pens continue to do this, they should have a much easier time getting the economics to work.

Crosby and Malkin provide something for this team that very few other NHL teams have. That's why I think the Pens are much smarter if they keep those two together and build around them as opposed to trading Malkin for a handful of players who will put them in the same situation just a couple of years down the road again, anyway.


This is very true, and they must let Hossa go if they want to continue along that path.

Smart fans need to realize that the team will continue to be good every season, but they wont be able to make strong Cup runs every season. Sometimes you just have to wait for the right pieces to fall into place because the cap will not allow your team to simply go out and get every piece they need every season. Every few years it will all fall into place and they will have other great chances at the Cup.
Last edited by PenguinHockeyFanatic on Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Troy Loney on Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:28 am

I think that this thread and the discussion centers around an opinion that if Shero decides to keep 2 out of the big three this offseason. It's just discussing a plausible scenario that Shero decides to keep crosby and hossa and trade malkin. A lot of people don't want to see Hossa walk and malkin can bring in a haul if they decide to move him.
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Postby Troy Loney on Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:32 am

PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:This is very true, and they must let Hossa go if they want to continue along that path.

Smart fans need to realize that the team will continue to be good every season, but they wont be able to make strong Cup runs every season. Sometimes you just have to wait for the right pieces to fall into place because the cap will not allow your team to simply go out and get every piece they need every season. Every few years it will all fall into place and they will have other great chances at the Cup.


Well considering that almost the entire team is either a RFA or an UFA this season or next shero is going to have to get pretty damn creative with the personnel.

They have only three players under contract through next year and the system has very little to contribute in the near future. they may need to leverage their assets to keep winning.
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Postby newarenanow on Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:33 am

Ginger wrote:Stoosh - thank you so much! Your post brought reason into this discussion & I agree with your thinking. I think fans panic at that big bad thing we all have to deal with - THE CAP.



Other than a few posts, I think the other side of the argument has been reasonable too.

I think almost everyone here is in agreement that Malkin is a key to this team, and he and Sid are part of the 'core'. Most everyone wants Malkin signed to a long term deal, and spend his career in Pgh. That is my thinking at least.

But, this thread is speculating the "what if" scenario that Malkin wants the max (which would be around $11-12M), and we can sign Hossa to a decent deal.

I think within that context, a trade would be something to think about if you get the right return. Sure, you won't get any player equal to Malkin (the only player not on the Pens that is equal is AO), but you can get a great return that can help the overall team.

Again, this is only speculation on a what if scenario. I didn't read anything in this thread, outside of maybe a handful of posts, that suggested we trade Malkin no matter what, and that he is a lesser player than Sid.

He is part of the 'core', but at what point do you have to make a decision if the aforementioned scenario presents itself.

The CAP is something teams need to think about and it is a reality.
Last edited by newarenanow on Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby PenguinHockeyFanatic on Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:33 am

Troy Loney wrote:I think that this thread and the discussion centers around an opinion that if Shero decides to keep 2 out of the big three this offseason. It's just discussing a plausible scenario that Shero decides to keep crosby and hossa and trade malkin. A lot of people don't want to see Hossa walk and malkin can bring in a haul if they decide to move him.


No fan wants to see Hossa walk, and no fan wants to see Malkin traded. But if not for this cap that forces these very tough issues, we wouldn't have either player here for very long.
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Postby Guinness on Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:36 am

One of the big factors underpinning the discussion here is that Hossa showed up to be more than just a "winger". He brought a lot of intangibles that, at least, I wasn't expecting. The guy is a real complete player... based on what he showed in the playoffs this year, I don't think it's unfair to call him a top-10 player in the league.
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Postby newarenanow on Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:38 am

PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
Troy Loney wrote:I think that this thread and the discussion centers around an opinion that if Shero decides to keep 2 out of the big three this offseason. It's just discussing a plausible scenario that Shero decides to keep crosby and hossa and trade malkin. A lot of people don't want to see Hossa walk and malkin can bring in a haul if they decide to move him.


No fan wants to see Hossa walk, and no fan wants to see Malkin traded. But if not for this cap that forces these very tough issues, we wouldn't have either player here for very long.


I think everyone understands that the Cap itself will allow to keep one or two players for a long time, because w/o it, the Rangers, for Toronto, or FLyers would just offer something like $20M a season for these guys and they woudln't be with the Pens long.

Hence the discussions of what scenarios you can keep guys, and what you do to get a return if and when the day comes you have to move someone, because we won't be able to keep everyone forever.
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Postby PenguinHockeyFanatic on Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:45 am

Troy Loney wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:This is very true, and they must let Hossa go if they want to continue along that path.

Smart fans need to realize that the team will continue to be good every season, but they wont be able to make strong Cup runs every season. Sometimes you just have to wait for the right pieces to fall into place because the cap will not allow your team to simply go out and get every piece they need every season. Every few years it will all fall into place and they will have other great chances at the Cup.


Well considering that almost the entire team is either a RFA or an UFA this season or next shero is going to have to get pretty damn creative with the personnel.

They have only three players under contract through next year and the system has very little to contribute in the near future. they may need to leverage their assets to keep winning.


Actually they have 6 NHL defense men plus Goligoski locked up for next season. In my mind all they need to do is get Eaton or Orpik back. Orpik is bigger, better, and more durable, but much more expensive. Eaton is actually a much better shot blocker than Orpik and could be retained for under 2 million a season I think.

Goal tending is not actually a big deal either. Conklin walks, Sabu is a solid affordable back up, and Fleury is not going to bid for on the open market so his contract could be inked pretty quickly. Cam Ward numbers sound about right to me (3-4 million).

The forwards could look a lot different. The second line could be set already with Staal/Malkin/Sykora. The third line could be Dupuis(Ruutu)/Talbot/Kennedy. The fourth line could be Ruutu(Roberts)/Hall/prospect(UFA)

One or two signings here and there and some under the radar deals could round out the depth. The big challenge for Ray Shero this summer is finding 2 top 4 quality wingers. I think he will get it done without Hossa here and the team will be very strong in the East again.
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Postby Troy Loney on Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:47 am

PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
Troy Loney wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:This is very true, and they must let Hossa go if they want to continue along that path.

Smart fans need to realize that the team will continue to be good every season, but they wont be able to make strong Cup runs every season. Sometimes you just have to wait for the right pieces to fall into place because the cap will not allow your team to simply go out and get every piece they need every season. Every few years it will all fall into place and they will have other great chances at the Cup.


Well considering that almost the entire team is either a RFA or an UFA this season or next shero is going to have to get pretty damn creative with the personnel.

They have only three players under contract through next year and the system has very little to contribute in the near future. they may need to leverage their assets to keep winning.


Actually they have 6 NHL defense men plus Goligoski locked up for next season. In my mind all they need to do is get Eaton or Orpik back. Orpik is bigger, better, and more durable, but much more expensive. Eaton is actually a much better shot blocker than Orpik and could be retained for under 2 million a season I think.

Goal tending is not actually a big deal either. Conklin walks, Sabu is a solid affordable back up, and Fleury is not going to bid for on the open market so his contract could be inked pretty quickly. Cam Ward numbers sound about right to me (3-4 million).

The forwards could look a lot different. The second line could be set already with Staal/Malkin/Sykora. The third line could be Dupuis(Ruutu)/Talbot/Kennedy. The fourth line could be Ruutu(Roberts)/Hall/prospect(UFA)

One or two signings here and there and some under the radar deals could round out the depth. The big challenge for Ray Shero this summer is finding 2 top 4 quality wingers. I think he will get it done without Hossa here and the team will be very strong in the East again.


Oh, by through next year i meant for the 09-10 season.

http://www.nhlnumbers.com/overview.php? ... eason=0708

That's 4 guys signed to play on this team after next year. So he'll be dishing out contract all over the place between now and then.
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Postby duke66 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:50 am

[quote="Stoosh"] Crosby and Malkin provide something for this team that very few other NHL teams have. That's why I think the Pens are much smarter if they keep those two together and build around them as opposed to trading Malkin for a handful of players who will put them in the same situation just a couple of years down the road again, anyway.[/quote]

...smartest thing i've read on this thread...well done!...
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Postby PenguinHockeyFanatic on Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:54 am

Troy Loney wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
Troy Loney wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:This is very true, and they must let Hossa go if they want to continue along that path.

Smart fans need to realize that the team will continue to be good every season, but they wont be able to make strong Cup runs every season. Sometimes you just have to wait for the right pieces to fall into place because the cap will not allow your team to simply go out and get every piece they need every season. Every few years it will all fall into place and they will have other great chances at the Cup.


Well considering that almost the entire team is either a RFA or an UFA this season or next shero is going to have to get pretty damn creative with the personnel.

They have only three players under contract through next year and the system has very little to contribute in the near future. they may need to leverage their assets to keep winning.


Actually they have 6 NHL defense men plus Goligoski locked up for next season. In my mind all they need to do is get Eaton or Orpik back. Orpik is bigger, better, and more durable, but much more expensive. Eaton is actually a much better shot blocker than Orpik and could be retained for under 2 million a season I think.

Goal tending is not actually a big deal either. Conklin walks, Sabu is a solid affordable back up, and Fleury is not going to bid for on the open market so his contract could be inked pretty quickly. Cam Ward numbers sound about right to me (3-4 million).

The forwards could look a lot different. The second line could be set already with Staal/Malkin/Sykora. The third line could be Dupuis(Ruutu)/Talbot/Kennedy. The fourth line could be Ruutu(Roberts)/Hall/prospect(UFA)

One or two signings here and there and some under the radar deals could round out the depth. The big challenge for Ray Shero this summer is finding 2 top 4 quality wingers. I think he will get it done without Hossa here and the team will be very strong in the East again.


Oh, by through next year i meant for the 09-10 season.

http://www.nhlnumbers.com/overview.php? ... eason=0708

That's 4 guys signed to play on this team after next year. So he'll be dishing out contract all over the place between now and then.


I don't know how to look that far ahead, hopefully Ray Shero does. I mean, the team could look so different by next seasons deadline. And guys like Sykora, Sydor, and Gill might simply be allowed to walk and that cap space could reshape the team even more.

I'm looking forward to seeing how things get done this season, it's going to be interesting.
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Postby newarenanow on Thu Jun 12, 2008 10:57 am

PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
I'm looking forward to seeing how things get done this season, it's going to be interesting.


I am too. It is going to be very, very interesting, as this is the first year the Pens will have to start dealing with the cap since it's inception.

I know Malkin and Staal don't become RFA's until after this coming season, but their salaries, along with some others have to be considered as well.

RS has his job cut out for him. And it will be fun to watch.
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Postby PenguinHockeyFanatic on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:11 am

newarenanow wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
I'm looking forward to seeing how things get done this season, it's going to be interesting.


I am too. It is going to be very, very interesting, as this is the first year the Pens will have to start dealing with the cap since it's inception.

I know Malkin and Staal don't become RFA's until after this coming season, but their salaries, along with some others have to be considered as well.

RS has his job cut out for him. And it will be fun to watch.


Yeah, there will be some new faces for sure. That kind of makes it even more exciting!

There are a lot of interesting UFAs out there. One is Dominic Moore. I think his defensive game and improved face off ability would allow Therrien the flexibility of putting Staal in a winger role.

Or how about Micheal Ryder? This guy has scored 99 goals in his first 4 seasons, Malone scored 87. Malone has a monstrous UFA season and will get more than he is worth. Ryder had a horrid UFA season and could get less than he is worth. If they could ink Ryder for a 2 or 3 year deal at around 3 million/season they might have a 40 goal scorer locked up!
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Postby Troy Loney on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:18 am

PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:There are a lot of interesting UFAs out there. One is Dominic Moore. I think his defensive game and improved face off ability would allow Therrien the flexibility of putting Staal in a winger role.


Is that a joke?
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Postby shmenguin on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:24 am

Troy Loney wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:There are a lot of interesting UFAs out there. One is Dominic Moore. I think his defensive game and improved face off ability would allow Therrien the flexibility of putting Staal in a winger role.


Is that a joke?


moore might be a free agent for the rest of his natural life. he sucked the life out of our 3rd line whenever he was on it and stunted jordan staal's growth by about 15 games.

i do miss his move where he would skate directly into the corner with the puck and turn it over flinging a backhand 10 feet wide of the goal crease. he was the absolute best at that.
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Postby PenguinHockeyFanatic on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:29 am

Troy Loney wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:There are a lot of interesting UFAs out there. One is Dominic Moore. I think his defensive game and improved face off ability would allow Therrien the flexibility of putting Staal in a winger role.


Is that a joke?


Not really? I mean, I never said he was Joel Otto in his prime or anything, but if they need Staal to play wing they are going to need more depth on the checking lines other than Talbot and Hall. Moore won more than 51% of his draws, he skates very well, and has good defensive instincts. Maybe his play here soured you and some other fans but I think the 26 year old got a little bit better and he is very affordable.

I don't think it makes a lot of sense to pay Staal the 4+ million he could command to score 40 points on the 3rd line when he could be scoring 35+ goals on a scoring line.
PenguinHockeyFanatic
 

Postby Troy Loney on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:30 am

shmenguin wrote:
Troy Loney wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:There are a lot of interesting UFAs out there. One is Dominic Moore. I think his defensive game and improved face off ability would allow Therrien the flexibility of putting Staal in a winger role.


Is that a joke?


moore might be a free agent for the rest of his natural life. he sucked the life out of our 3rd line whenever he was on it and stunted jordan staal's growth by about 15 games.

i do miss his move where he would skate directly into the corner with the puck and turn it over flinging a backhand 10 feet wide of the goal crease. he was the absolute best at that.


Atleast he was a fast skater, he would quickly get to the corner.
Troy Loney
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