Pierre saying Malkin to Kings for Kopitar, Dustin Brown

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Postby KG on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:31 am

If the pens got offered:

Malkin, Sydor (little salary going there way too )

for

Kopitar, Brown, Johnson, LA's first round pick this year (2nd overall), and a 1st round pick in 09. The deal would have to be done...I don't see LA making that deal though...
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Postby HeyNow71871929 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:33 am

crzymike wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
Pitts wrote:
crzymike wrote:
Pitts wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:I'm still wondering what the same people who are saying trading Malkin wouldn't be a bad thing would say if Crosby and Malkin were to replace roles.

Essentially, it would solve the issue just the same. In that case, Malkin would fully assume the #1 center spot, with, say, Kopitar, the definitive 2nd line center.

There, are you happy now?
So truthfully you'd trade Sid to the Kings in that proposed deal?

Sid is a little harder to grasp since he truly is the face of the team and the entire NHL. But, honestly, if the roles were reversed with Malkin already locked up, and Crosby looking for a possible huge payday and cap hit, unfortunately you may have to consider it. The NHL is a business these days and at times, hard decisions have to be made.


This is basically exactly what i'm saying. Only I don't believe it, just pointing out the argument people are making. In fact I have prefaced almost every post i've made in this thread by saying that I don't think the pens will or should trade Malkin.

I point out that money is the only reason that people consider trading Malkin, then HeyNow doesn't get the answer he wants, and tells me that i'm wrong, and that people would be acting differently if it were Crosby who didn't yet have the contract.

I don't understand why the question is asked repeatedly if there is only one response that is acceptable to him.


Money that Malkin may or may not want is sheer speculation at this point. Nobody knows how much Malkin wants. However, there are certain on this board, whom I believe think that trading Malkin is going to be beneficial. Financially or not, trading away a 21 year old elite superstar is never beneficial for any organization. I don't give a damn what you're getting back in the trade. THERE IS SIMPLY NO EQUAL TRADE VALUE FOR EVGENI MALKIN. PERIOD.


I entirely agree, why not just post that rather than asking what they would do if crosby and malkin were in different positions then? It seems as if you want an argument.
I dont want to speak for HeyNow but I posed this question earlier in the thread. I think we were thinking along the same lines . If Sid was brought up in these types of trade debates this board would be up in arms. Because it's Geno is widely more accepted. I believe thats what he was getting at. I know thats what my thought was on the matter. Ofcourse I completely disagree with either being traded. :wink:


Yes, exactly what Mike said. I was just reiterating what he brought up earlier in the thread. And I just want to know what people would say if Crosby was the one in the middle of all these trade talks. And thevibe that I'm getting back is Crosby getting traded would be viewed completely opposite by many on this board. Everyone, and I mean, everyone would be up in arms about that. The same doesn't hold true when it comes to trading Malkin.
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Postby PenguinHockeyFanatic on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:34 am

shmenguin wrote:
Troy Loney wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:There are a lot of interesting UFAs out there. One is Dominic Moore. I think his defensive game and improved face off ability would allow Therrien the flexibility of putting Staal in a winger role.


Is that a joke?


moore might be a free agent for the rest of his natural life. he sucked the life out of our 3rd line whenever he was on it and stunted jordan staal's growth by about 15 games.

i do miss his move where he would skate directly into the corner with the puck and turn it over flinging a backhand 10 feet wide of the goal crease. he was the absolute best at that.


Well, Jason Williams is also UFA. He can play center or wing, pretty good on draws, righty shot, probably not going to get more than 2 mil a season.
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Postby Troy Loney on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:35 am

HeyNow71871929 wrote:Yes, exactly what Mike said. I was just reiterating what he brought up earlier in the thread. And I just want to know what people would say if Crosby was the one in the middle of all these trade talks. And thevibe that I'm getting back is Crosby getting traded would be viewed completely opposite by many on this board. Everyone, and I mean, everyone would be up in arms about that. The same doesn't hold true when it comes to trading Malkin.


I think the return should be a little higher for crosby because of his commercial appeal. He'd probably makes more money for the team.
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Postby HeyNow71871929 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:36 am

crzymike wrote:
Pipes Hochuli wrote:you're still at it aren't you. what are you missing? if malkin was crosby, and crosby was malkin, then we'd still be in the same situation, the same talks would be going on.

but the fact of the matter is that they are different, in many ways.

i will say this one last time....crosby is the face of the penguins, the nhl, and our city. crosby does the pressers, commercials, and celebrity/charity events. whether you like it or not. it has nothing to do with malkin's talent, it has everything to do with where crosby came from and what he has shown so far. he is our captain, and the nhl's captain. malkin is an ELITE player, but he can barely speak english, and this gives him somewhat of an isolated/quiet personality. i know that personality has nothing to do with performance, but do you realize what the pens would lose if they lost crosby? they would lose a hell of a lot if they lost malkin, no matter what the return, but it wouldn't be quite the same. this discussion surely has nothing to do with crosby. malkin's name is being rumored, so deal with the speculation.

crosby is crosby, malkin is malkin. crosby is not malkin just like malkin is not crosby. we are certainly lucky to have them both, and will be lucky if we can keep them both, but you need to face the facts a little bit rather than just attacking speculations.
I couldn't care less about press conferences, thats a ridiculous premise. I am far more concerned about each of their contributions to the team. A case can be made for both as bein the best. I am basing my opinion on what goes on during actual play, not what happens in commercials or who's prettier, damn. :roll:


AMEN. I can give less sh** for what either does off ice. I care about what I am getting ON THE ICE.

Seems like the only one who is following along here appears to be crzymike. Thank you.
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Postby newarenanow on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:39 am

HeyNow71871929 wrote:
AMEN. I can give less sh** for what either does off ice. I care about what I am getting ON THE ICE.

Seems like the only one who is following along here appears to be crzymike. Thank you.


With on ice production being equal, or even in Crosby's favor by a very slight margin, the only other deciding factor is the off the ice production, which Crosby leads by leaps and bounds.
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Postby pensrule on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:40 am

PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
Troy Loney wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:There are a lot of interesting UFAs out there. One is Dominic Moore. I think his defensive game and improved face off ability would allow Therrien the flexibility of putting Staal in a winger role.


Is that a joke?


Not really? I mean, I never said he was Joel Otto in his prime or anything, but if they need Staal to play wing they are going to need more depth on the checking lines other than Talbot and Hall. Moore won more than 51% of his draws, he skates very well, and has good defensive instincts. Maybe his play here soured you and some other fans but I think the 26 year old got a little bit better and he is very affordable.

I don't think it makes a lot of sense to pay Staal the 4+ million he could command to score 40 points on the 3rd line when he could be scoring 35+ goals on a scoring line.


If Jordan Staal gets more than $2.5 million\year on any short term deal, somethings wrong. The kid had 12 G, 16 A and was a -5. That's 28 points people!

Look I know he does lots of other things well ie kill penalties, solid defensively, etc, but c'mon. I like Staal and I think he'll continue to develop, but in no way is he worth more than $2.5 million\year on any short term contract (3 yr extension or less). Now if he wants to sign a 6 year extension, then I could see him getting in the $3.25 - $3.75 range (cap hit).
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Postby Troy Loney on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:45 am

HeyNow71871929 wrote:
AMEN. I can give less sh** for what either does off ice. I care about what I am getting ON THE ICE.

Seems like the only one who is following along here appears to be crzymike. Thank you.


Don't you think it's a little naive to completely ignore the off ice stuff?
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Postby HeyNow71871929 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:47 am

Stoosh wrote:Might as well throw my two cents into the ring...

If you look back over the last twenty or thirty years, just about every franchise that was able to sustain a legitimate Cup contender for any substantial length of time all had one common denominator - they all had two world-class centers.

There are exceptions, of course (the Devils). But for the most part, teams that sustained a Cup-contending core did so with two world-class centers at the top of their depth charts.

Edmonton had Gretzky and Messier. Pittsburgh had Lemieux and Francis. Colorado had Sakic and Forsberg. Detroit had Yzerman and Federov.

What is NOT a common denominator among those teams is the necessary presence of a couple of world-class wingers to play alongside them. Pittsburgh obviously had Stevens, Jagr, Tocchet and Recchi - marquee players at the time. Edmonton had Jari Kurri and Glenn Anderson, but they also had guys like Ken Linseman and Pat Hughes - not exactly earth-shattering names.

Colorado won it's first Cup with Valeri Kamensky, Claude Lemieux, Scott Young and Adam Deadmarsh on the wings. When they won their second in 2000-01, they did so with Hejduk, Drury, Tanguay and Podein. Detroit had Shanahan, Slava Kozlov, Darren McCarty and Martin LaPointe for its first two Cups, and then mixed in some older veterans like Hull and Robitaille along with the emerging Tomas Holmstrom in 2001-02.

My point is that I think Pittsburgh has the same sort of thing going here with Crosby and Malkin. You could make the case that they are two of the best three centers in the game right now, and each of them make their linemates better. Replacing a guy like Hossa isn't easy, but it's probably a hell of a lot easier than replacing a guy like Malkin.

As long as Crosby and Malkin have their own lines, this will always be a team capable of rolling three lines capable of scoring points - especially when you factor in Staal's presence on the third line and eventual presence on the power play. I'm going to have a hard time breaking that up for anything, given what history tells us about teams that can keep two world-class centers together.


Excellent post. Agree with everything you said there. That's why I am having such a hard time understanding why people are so bent on getting rid of Malkin. Is it a crime to have two of the best in the world on the same team? Is it a crime for a legitimate 1st line center to be playing the 2nd line and sharing the spotlight with another star on the team?
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Postby HeyNow71871929 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:48 am

Kovy27 wrote:Stoosh...I completely agree. Malkin should be center piece of this team...but times have changed with the Cap...that's where I worry. The Colorado team is a great example though. They had an all world goaltender in the net though.

This thread turned into a Crosby vs. Malkin thing...and it is not...

People just don't understand that Crosby is the team leader and the center piece of the franchise. He will never be in trade discussions unless he wants to leave.


Why shouldn't it be the same way for Malkin then?
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Postby Pipes Hochuli on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:49 am

no one wants to get rid of malkin!
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Postby PenguinHockeyFanatic on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:49 am

pensrule wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
Troy Loney wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:There are a lot of interesting UFAs out there. One is Dominic Moore. I think his defensive game and improved face off ability would allow Therrien the flexibility of putting Staal in a winger role.


Is that a joke?


Not really? I mean, I never said he was Joel Otto in his prime or anything, but if they need Staal to play wing they are going to need more depth on the checking lines other than Talbot and Hall. Moore won more than 51% of his draws, he skates very well, and has good defensive instincts. Maybe his play here soured you and some other fans but I think the 26 year old got a little bit better and he is very affordable.

I don't think it makes a lot of sense to pay Staal the 4+ million he could command to score 40 points on the 3rd line when he could be scoring 35+ goals on a scoring line.


If Jordan Staal gets more than $2.5 million\year on any short term deal, somethings wrong. The kid had 12 G, 16 A and was a -5. That's 28 points people!

Look I know he does lots of other things well ie kill penalties, solid defensively, etc, but c'mon. I like Staal and I think he'll continue to develop, but in no way is he worth more than $2.5 million\year on any short term contract (3 yr extension or less). Now if he wants to sign a 6 year extension, then I could see him getting in the $3.25 - $3.75 range (cap hit).


Honestly I don't know what he is entitled to. I guess it's lucky for the Penguins that the NHL doesn't pay it's defensive stars as much as it's offensive ones. I don't think Staal is going to want to sign a contract extension this summer, I think he is going to try and score 25+ goals this season and get 50+ points and then want to negotiate at the end of next season. If he does that, he could easily get over 3 million a season.
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Postby Pipes Hochuli on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:51 am

HeyNow71871929 wrote:
Kovy27 wrote:Stoosh...I completely agree. Malkin should be center piece of this team...but times have changed with the Cap...that's where I worry. The Colorado team is a great example though. They had an all world goaltender in the net though.

This thread turned into a Crosby vs. Malkin thing...and it is not...

People just don't understand that Crosby is the team leader and the center piece of the franchise. He will never be in trade discussions unless he wants to leave.


Why shouldn't it be the same way for Malkin then?


because malkin is not crosby? and don't read too much into this, i'm not trying to bring malkin down. but he is not crosby. he deserves what crosby gets, but right now.....he's not crosby.
Last edited by Pipes Hochuli on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby IrishEyes on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:51 am

HeyNow71871929 wrote:Excellent post. Agree with everything you said there. That's why I am having such a hard time understanding why people are so bent on getting rid of Malkin. Is it a crime to have two of the best in the world on the same team? Is it a crime for a legitimate 1st line center to be playing the 2nd line and sharing the spotlight with another star on the team?


I've stayed out of this for 26 pages... but seriously, dude. NO ONE is bent on getting rid of Malkin. NO ONE actually wants to see him leave. Speculating on trades and salaries is one thing. But there isn't ONE person in this entire thread who has actually said "let's get rid of Malkin." You should really try comprehending what other people are saying before you spout off freaking out over "trading" Malkin.
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Postby PenguinHockeyFanatic on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:51 am

HeyNow71871929 wrote:
Stoosh wrote:Might as well throw my two cents into the ring...

If you look back over the last twenty or thirty years, just about every franchise that was able to sustain a legitimate Cup contender for any substantial length of time all had one common denominator - they all had two world-class centers.

There are exceptions, of course (the Devils). But for the most part, teams that sustained a Cup-contending core did so with two world-class centers at the top of their depth charts.

Edmonton had Gretzky and Messier. Pittsburgh had Lemieux and Francis. Colorado had Sakic and Forsberg. Detroit had Yzerman and Federov.

What is NOT a common denominator among those teams is the necessary presence of a couple of world-class wingers to play alongside them. Pittsburgh obviously had Stevens, Jagr, Tocchet and Recchi - marquee players at the time. Edmonton had Jari Kurri and Glenn Anderson, but they also had guys like Ken Linseman and Pat Hughes - not exactly earth-shattering names.

Colorado won it's first Cup with Valeri Kamensky, Claude Lemieux, Scott Young and Adam Deadmarsh on the wings. When they won their second in 2000-01, they did so with Hejduk, Drury, Tanguay and Podein. Detroit had Shanahan, Slava Kozlov, Darren McCarty and Martin LaPointe for its first two Cups, and then mixed in some older veterans like Hull and Robitaille along with the emerging Tomas Holmstrom in 2001-02.

My point is that I think Pittsburgh has the same sort of thing going here with Crosby and Malkin. You could make the case that they are two of the best three centers in the game right now, and each of them make their linemates better. Replacing a guy like Hossa isn't easy, but it's probably a hell of a lot easier than replacing a guy like Malkin.

As long as Crosby and Malkin have their own lines, this will always be a team capable of rolling three lines capable of scoring points - especially when you factor in Staal's presence on the third line and eventual presence on the power play. I'm going to have a hard time breaking that up for anything, given what history tells us about teams that can keep two world-class centers together.


Excellent post. Agree with everything you said there. That's why I am having such a hard time understanding why people are so bent on getting rid of Malkin. Is it a crime to have two of the best in the world on the same team? Is it a crime for a legitimate 1st line center to be playing the 2nd line and sharing the spotlight with another star on the team?


I didn't read anything about people wanting to get "rid" of him. There is just speculation being made about what you could get for him, while allowing your team to keep Hossa. And it's quite a lot, but I wouldn't do it.
Last edited by PenguinHockeyFanatic on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby newarenanow on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:52 am

HeyNow71871929 wrote:
Excellent post. Agree with everything you said there. That's why I am having such a hard time understanding why people are so bent on getting rid of Malkin. Is it a crime to have two of the best in the world on the same team? Is it a crime for a legitimate 1st line center to be playing the 2nd line and sharing the spotlight with another star on the team?


For the 100th time, I don't think people want to "just rid of Malkin". I think the majority of people would love to keep malkin for his entire career with Sid. I am one of those people.

This thread brought up the scenario that IF Malkin demanded the max next year, which could be around $11-12M, and if you can sign Hossa to a decent deal, do you consider offers for Malkin.

No return will match what Malkin can bring, but it can solidify a number of holes in the team, and keep them a legit contender for a long time w/o having their hands tied financially.

You came in and turned it into a Malkin vs Sid thread.
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Postby Pitts on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:53 am

HeyNow71871929 wrote:Seems like the only one who is following along here appears to be crzymike. Thank you.

Believe us all, it isn't very hard to follow your one way road.
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Postby HeyNow71871929 on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:54 am

Guinness wrote:One of the big factors underpinning the discussion here is that Hossa showed up to be more than just a "winger". He brought a lot of intangibles that, at least, I wasn't expecting. The guy is a real complete player... based on what he showed in the playoffs this year, I don't think it's unfair to call him a top-10 player in the league.



Completely agree. I was convinced during and after the playoffs that this guy is top 10 in the world. He has absolutely every arsenal to his game. I love Hossa as much as the next guy and want him resigned just as much as the next guy. But again, if it comes down to paying a top 10 talent money as opposed to paying a top 3 talent money, you let the top 10 talent walk.
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Postby Pitts on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:57 am

PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:Well, Jason Williams is also UFA. He can play center or wing, pretty good on draws, righty shot, probably not going to get more than 2 mil a season.

Jason Williams and Cory Stillman are 2 UFA's I would certainly like Shero to reach out to.
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Postby Steve on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:59 am

HeyNow71871929 wrote:
Kovy27 wrote:Stoosh...I completely agree. Malkin should be center piece of this team...but times have changed with the Cap...that's where I worry. The Colorado team is a great example though. They had an all world goaltender in the net though.

This thread turned into a Crosby vs. Malkin thing...and it is not...

People just don't understand that Crosby is the team leader and the center piece of the franchise. He will never be in trade discussions unless he wants to leave.


Why shouldn't it be the same way for Malkin then?


Apples and oranges. We know what Sid's contract is going to be for the next 5 years, which by the way, is below market when comparing to other contracts in this league.

With Malkin, who knows? What is he going to demand? Does he want to share the limelight with Sid? Does he want to play in a larger market?

Keeping Malkin should be our #1 priority, but why is it so shocking that Shero would investigating his options, especially when he really knows what is going on?
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Postby KG on Thu Jun 12, 2008 11:59 am

HeyNow71871929 wrote:
Guinness wrote:One of the big factors underpinning the discussion here is that Hossa showed up to be more than just a "winger". He brought a lot of intangibles that, at least, I wasn't expecting. The guy is a real complete player... based on what he showed in the playoffs this year, I don't think it's unfair to call him a top-10 player in the league.



Completely agree. I was convinced during and after the playoffs that this guy is top 10 in the world. He has absolutely every arsenal to his game. I love Hossa as much as the next guy and want him resigned just as much as the next guy. But again, if it comes down to paying a top 10 talent money as opposed to paying a top 3 talent money, you let the top 10 talent walk.


I understand your logic. But on the flip side. Do you let the top talent walk for nothing, or sign him and trade the top 3 talent for a serious package...Hossa and Malkin are both assets. You can look at it this way:

Let Hossa go, and sign a UFA (Stillman), keep Malkin

or

Re-sign Hossa, and trade Malkin for Kopitar, Brown, 2nd overall pick...

Not easy. I just don't like losing real chips for nothing...
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Postby Three Stars on Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:01 pm

Don't turn around, uh-oh.

Der Kopitar's in town, uh-oh.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Guvo7gUdUnE
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Postby PenguinHockeyFanatic on Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:09 pm

Pitts wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:Well, Jason Williams is also UFA. He can play center or wing, pretty good on draws, righty shot, probably not going to get more than 2 mil a season.

Jason Williams and Cory Stillman are 2 UFA's I would certainly like Shero to reach out to.


For the right deal I think Stillman would help out.

Ryder and Huselius could probably be brought here for a combined 8 million. They both have 40 goal potential with centers like Sid and Geno, but they both have a lot of issues too.

I've always been a fan of Reasoner too, and Edmonton also has Sanderson up for contract. Yeah I know he is 35 and everything, but maybe if it's a one year deal it would work out well. He scored 39 goals over the past 2 seasons.


Vrbata looks like a potential fit here too.
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Postby Pitts on Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:19 pm

PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
Pitts wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:Well, Jason Williams is also UFA. He can play center or wing, pretty good on draws, righty shot, probably not going to get more than 2 mil a season.

Jason Williams and Cory Stillman are 2 UFA's I would certainly like Shero to reach out to.


For the right deal I think Stillman would help out.

Ryder and Huselius could probably be brought here for a combined 8 million. They both have 40 goal potential with centers like Sid and Geno, but they both have a lot of issues too.

I've always been a fan of Reasoner too, and Edmonton also has Sanderson up for contract. Yeah I know he is 35 and everything, but maybe if it's a one year deal it would work out well. He scored 39 goals over the past 2 seasons.


Vrbata looks like a potential fit here too.

Vrbata is and will continue to be my #1 choice until he re-signs with Phoenix (my prediction).

Williams is another winger with speed to burn and would fit in well. Huselius would be nice, but he's another hot/cold winger like Sykora. Ryder, don;t know a whole lot about - but, he doesn't seem to want to work to his potential to me. But, we can all see how Robidas and Ribero seem to have taken off once they got out of Montreal.
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Postby Pensrock on Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:31 pm

Amen..... HeyNow71871929..... seriously, not trying to be a jerk but are you even reading what anyone is writing?

Two things you keep coming back to:
1) Everyone wants to get rid of Malkin
2) Why isn't Crosby viewed as maybe needing to be traded

First, NO ONE WANTS to get rid of Malkin. Not ONE person has said that. There are reasons it may have to happen but no one WANTS to get rid of him.

Secondly, you can't put Sid in his shoes because he is ALREADY signed to a long term deal at BELOW MARKET RATE. That is not hard to understand. Why would you trade him when he is below market rate.

As I have said in this thread, if Malkin will sign for 8.7 million a year, I would sign him forever.

But the basis of this thread started with the assumption that Malkin wanted the Max salary. No one knows if that is true or what he truely wants. It is all speculation. People are just speculating that if he truely wants that do you have to look at trading him.

No one is saying Malkin sucks or that they want him gone or that Crosby is way better or that Malkin is whatever else you have taken from this thread.

IrishEyes wrote:
HeyNow71871929 wrote:Excellent post. Agree with everything you said there. That's why I am having such a hard time understanding why people are so bent on getting rid of Malkin. Is it a crime to have two of the best in the world on the same team? Is it a crime for a legitimate 1st line center to be playing the 2nd line and sharing the spotlight with another star on the team?


I've stayed out of this for 26 pages... but seriously, dude. NO ONE is bent on getting rid of Malkin. NO ONE actually wants to see him leave. Speculating on trades and salaries is one thing. But there isn't ONE person in this entire thread who has actually said "let's get rid of Malkin." You should really try comprehending what other people are saying before you spout off freaking out over "trading" Malkin.
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