Pierre saying Malkin to Kings for Kopitar, Dustin Brown

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Postby crzymike on Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:54 pm

holeinone wrote:Trust me on this one. It will take a lot more than Malkin to get the Kings to the Stanley Cup Finals. Kopitar, Brown and a 1st round draft pick or Jack Johnson would finalize that deal for me. Beside the rumor is that Malkin wants 10 Million a year for 10 years. Way too much for a team that already has Crosby.
Shortly after the AO deal was signed Geno said ''that's too long'' and went on to say ''six years and then then another six years''. Obviously he could change his mind but I don't see that as likely. Besides if he did sign a 10 year deal for 100 million, in the long run it might actually benefit the team. Short term however it'd be hard. I just don't see it happening like that though.
Last edited by crzymike on Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Pitts on Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:57 pm

Do I hear 30??

Howabout this: I think Malkin SUCKS! He's LAZY EURO! I can't wait till they trade him. I'd even take a warm case of brew for him!
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Postby meecrofilm on Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:04 pm

Pitts wrote:Do I hear 30??

Howabout this: I think Malkin SUCKS! He's LAZY EURO! I can't wait till they trade him. I'd even take a warm case of brew for him!


Hear hear!!!
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Postby crzymike on Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:09 pm

Pitts wrote:Do I hear 30??

Howabout this: I think Malkin SUCKS! He's LAZY EURO! I can't wait till they trade him. I'd even take a warm case of brew for him!
How about this, I Think brew sucks! :D
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Postby PenguinHockeyFanatic on Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:32 pm

Stoosh wrote:Couple more thoughts I have on this...

1. This notion that Malkin is going to want to max out seems to come largely from a media guided mostly by the stereotype that most European hockey players only care about getting a big contract. I've heard it mentioned in articles in the Canadian media. I've heard Maguire mention it. It boils down to this for some of these media types:

Malkin = Euro = Max Contract

Connect the dots, I guess. There's no basis for it...nothing attributed directly to Malkin or his agent. And it's nothing but perpetuating this stereotype that the Euros don't care about the Cup as much as they do maxing out on a contract. Until I actually hear it from Malkin or his agent, I don't see him going for a max level deal.

2. I heard Starkey mention this yesterday on ESPN Radio 1250. When you factor in how much the cap could increase every year between now and the end of Crosby's contract, he left a hell of a lot more on the table than $1.5 million a year. Sid's contract could end up saving the Pens upwards of $20 million by the time it's time to ink him to a new one.


Sid is something of a hero for taking such a massive pay cut, but he knows how the business works and he knows what's important to him.

If he is making top dollar, he isn't going to have the best wingers he can get and that means that he wont have as many titles, trophies, or Cups when his destined to be legendary career has ended.

Now here is where it gets complicated for Ray Shero and the Penguins. Geno Malkin could have that exact same approach to his next contract and take 15% less then the current cap ceiling (around 9.1/season) like Sid did. Their combined pay cuts would allow the Penguins to spend money on a very good winger for one of them to skate with on a line. It would appear that Sid's need for a goal scoring winger is more important to the management and the fans then Geno's. If you were Geno Malkin, how would that make you feel?

This is part of what happened to Tampa Bays instant plummet. Vinny and Marty were like peas and carrots while Richards was forced to make do with whatever was left over for them to squeeze under the cap. It already appears Geno's left winger is going to be gone, does that mean he gets to play with Sykora and Talbot while management bends over backwards to make Sid happy for taking his pay cut?

My point is simply this: why should Malkin take less to play for a team that will use that money saved to help the teams "number one" center. Why should ANYBVODY begrudge Geno for feeling left out because of that? After all, as soon as Geno's line goes into a slump he will be the one taking all of the heat from the fans while Sid soaks up all the glory because his line mates make him appear to be the clear cut better player.

People say there are no egos, and that these things I have theoretically presented here are not what drives these world class athletes.But that's only because the people who discuss these things can't possibly fathom what each individuals career means to him.

Now if Sid and Geno each have equal talent on their wings then I don't see any issues. That's what management should look to find. 2 top 4 wingers that are pure snipers and 2 top 4 wingers that are solid defensively and can provide some toughness and physical play.

Having Hossa on the team offsets that balance, they can't have 2 #1 centers and just one elite winger like that and expect perfect team harmony.

Sorry for rambling, great post BTW. :)
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Postby crzymike on Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:40 pm

PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
Stoosh wrote:Couple more thoughts I have on this...

1. This notion that Malkin is going to want to max out seems to come largely from a media guided mostly by the stereotype that most European hockey players only care about getting a big contract. I've heard it mentioned in articles in the Canadian media. I've heard Maguire mention it. It boils down to this for some of these media types:

Malkin = Euro = Max Contract

Connect the dots, I guess. There's no basis for it...nothing attributed directly to Malkin or his agent. And it's nothing but perpetuating this stereotype that the Euros don't care about the Cup as much as they do maxing out on a contract. Until I actually hear it from Malkin or his agent, I don't see him going for a max level deal.

2. I heard Starkey mention this yesterday on ESPN Radio 1250. When you factor in how much the cap could increase every year between now and the end of Crosby's contract, he left a hell of a lot more on the table than $1.5 million a year. Sid's contract could end up saving the Pens upwards of $20 million by the time it's time to ink him to a new one.


Sid is something of a hero for taking such a massive pay cut, but he knows how the business works and he knows what's important to him.

If he is making top dollar, he isn't going to have the best wingers he can get and that means that he wont have as many titles, trophies, or Cups when his destined to be legendary career has ended.

Now here is where it gets complicated for Ray Shero and the Penguins. Geno Malkin could have that exact same approach to his next contract and take 15% less then the current cap ceiling (around 9.1/season) like Sid did. Their combined pay cuts would allow the Penguins to spend money on a very good winger for one of them to skate with on a line. It would appear that Sid's need for a goal scoring winger is more important to the management and the fans then Geno's. If you were Geno Malkin, how would that make you feel?

This is part of what happened to Tampa Bays instant plummet. Vinny and Marty were like peas and carrots while Richards was forced to make do with whatever was left over for them to squeeze under the cap. It already appears Geno's left winger is going to be gone, does that mean he gets to play with Sykora and Talbot while management bends over backwards to make Sid happy for taking his pay cut?

My point is simply this: why should Malkin take less to play for a team that will use that money saved to help the teams "number one" center. Why should ANYBVODY begrudge Geno for feeling left out because of that? After all, as soon as Geno's line goes into a slump he will be the one taking all of the heat from the fans while Sid soaks up all the glory because his line mates make him appear to be the clear cut better player.

People say there are no egos, and that these things I have theoretically presented here are not what drives these world class athletes.But that's only because the people who discuss these things can't possibly fathom what each individuals career means to him.

Now if Sid and Geno each have equal talent on their wings then I don't see any issues. That's what management should look to find. 2 top 4 wingers that are pure snipers and 2 top 4 wingers that are solid defensively and can provide some toughness and physical play.

Having Hossa on the team offsets that balance, they can't have 2 #1 centers and just one elite winger like that and expect perfect team harmony.

Sorry for rambling, great post BTW. :)
You could look at it from this perspective though. While Sid would have Hossa, Geno could have the next two best wings available to balance the equasion out. Sort of the method where Sid picks first but if Geno picks second, he gets the next two. :wink:

If you looked at our top two lines, thats kind of how it played out. While Sid had a great winger, the most complete line was Malone-Malkin-Sykora (though they didnt show it in the finals).
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Postby PenguinHockeyFanatic on Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:50 pm

crzymike wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
Stoosh wrote:Couple more thoughts I have on this...

1. This notion that Malkin is going to want to max out seems to come largely from a media guided mostly by the stereotype that most European hockey players only care about getting a big contract. I've heard it mentioned in articles in the Canadian media. I've heard Maguire mention it. It boils down to this for some of these media types:

Malkin = Euro = Max Contract

Connect the dots, I guess. There's no basis for it...nothing attributed directly to Malkin or his agent. And it's nothing but perpetuating this stereotype that the Euros don't care about the Cup as much as they do maxing out on a contract. Until I actually hear it from Malkin or his agent, I don't see him going for a max level deal.

2. I heard Starkey mention this yesterday on ESPN Radio 1250. When you factor in how much the cap could increase every year between now and the end of Crosby's contract, he left a hell of a lot more on the table than $1.5 million a year. Sid's contract could end up saving the Pens upwards of $20 million by the time it's time to ink him to a new one.


Sid is something of a hero for taking such a massive pay cut, but he knows how the business works and he knows what's important to him.

If he is making top dollar, he isn't going to have the best wingers he can get and that means that he wont have as many titles, trophies, or Cups when his destined to be legendary career has ended.

Now here is where it gets complicated for Ray Shero and the Penguins. Geno Malkin could have that exact same approach to his next contract and take 15% less then the current cap ceiling (around 9.1/season) like Sid did. Their combined pay cuts would allow the Penguins to spend money on a very good winger for one of them to skate with on a line. It would appear that Sid's need for a goal scoring winger is more important to the management and the fans then Geno's. If you were Geno Malkin, how would that make you feel?

This is part of what happened to Tampa Bays instant plummet. Vinny and Marty were like peas and carrots while Richards was forced to make do with whatever was left over for them to squeeze under the cap. It already appears Geno's left winger is going to be gone, does that mean he gets to play with Sykora and Talbot while management bends over backwards to make Sid happy for taking his pay cut?

My point is simply this: why should Malkin take less to play for a team that will use that money saved to help the teams "number one" center. Why should ANYBVODY begrudge Geno for feeling left out because of that? After all, as soon as Geno's line goes into a slump he will be the one taking all of the heat from the fans while Sid soaks up all the glory because his line mates make him appear to be the clear cut better player.

People say there are no egos, and that these things I have theoretically presented here are not what drives these world class athletes.But that's only because the people who discuss these things can't possibly fathom what each individuals career means to him.

Now if Sid and Geno each have equal talent on their wings then I don't see any issues. That's what management should look to find. 2 top 4 wingers that are pure snipers and 2 top 4 wingers that are solid defensively and can provide some toughness and physical play.

Having Hossa on the team offsets that balance, they can't have 2 #1 centers and just one elite winger like that and expect perfect team harmony.

Sorry for rambling, great post BTW. :)
You could look at it from this perspective though. While Sid would have Hossa, Geno could have the next two best wings available to balance the equasion out. Sort of the method where Sid picks first but if Geno picks second, he gets the next two. :wink:

If you looked at our top two lines, thats kind of how it played out. While Sid had a great winger, the most complete line was Malone-Malkin-Sykora (though they didnt show it in the finals).


I can certainly see that working (like it did), but that also once again raises the issue of money. How can you afford to have three players hogging up half of the teams cap space and expect to have enough left over for TWO good wingers for Geno? It's almost exactly what happened to Tamp Bay. You can't ice a Cup contender with 3 stars taking up half of the cap space, history clearly shows that it can't be done. Staal Fleury, WHitney, Letang, Gonchar and 2 great wingers for Geno? Unless they only keep a 15 man roster I don't see that being realistic.

If Hossa signs here, the Malkin trade rumors will begin to have some validity. Maybe not this season as much as next season.
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Postby meecrofilm on Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:54 pm

PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
crzymike wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
Stoosh wrote:Couple more thoughts I have on this...

1. This notion that Malkin is going to want to max out seems to come largely from a media guided mostly by the stereotype that most European hockey players only care about getting a big contract. I've heard it mentioned in articles in the Canadian media. I've heard Maguire mention it. It boils down to this for some of these media types:

Malkin = Euro = Max Contract

Connect the dots, I guess. There's no basis for it...nothing attributed directly to Malkin or his agent. And it's nothing but perpetuating this stereotype that the Euros don't care about the Cup as much as they do maxing out on a contract. Until I actually hear it from Malkin or his agent, I don't see him going for a max level deal.

2. I heard Starkey mention this yesterday on ESPN Radio 1250. When you factor in how much the cap could increase every year between now and the end of Crosby's contract, he left a hell of a lot more on the table than $1.5 million a year. Sid's contract could end up saving the Pens upwards of $20 million by the time it's time to ink him to a new one.


Sid is something of a hero for taking such a massive pay cut, but he knows how the business works and he knows what's important to him.

If he is making top dollar, he isn't going to have the best wingers he can get and that means that he wont have as many titles, trophies, or Cups when his destined to be legendary career has ended.

Now here is where it gets complicated for Ray Shero and the Penguins. Geno Malkin could have that exact same approach to his next contract and take 15% less then the current cap ceiling (around 9.1/season) like Sid did. Their combined pay cuts would allow the Penguins to spend money on a very good winger for one of them to skate with on a line. It would appear that Sid's need for a goal scoring winger is more important to the management and the fans then Geno's. If you were Geno Malkin, how would that make you feel?

This is part of what happened to Tampa Bays instant plummet. Vinny and Marty were like peas and carrots while Richards was forced to make do with whatever was left over for them to squeeze under the cap. It already appears Geno's left winger is going to be gone, does that mean he gets to play with Sykora and Talbot while management bends over backwards to make Sid happy for taking his pay cut?

My point is simply this: why should Malkin take less to play for a team that will use that money saved to help the teams "number one" center. Why should ANYBVODY begrudge Geno for feeling left out because of that? After all, as soon as Geno's line goes into a slump he will be the one taking all of the heat from the fans while Sid soaks up all the glory because his line mates make him appear to be the clear cut better player.

People say there are no egos, and that these things I have theoretically presented here are not what drives these world class athletes.But that's only because the people who discuss these things can't possibly fathom what each individuals career means to him.

Now if Sid and Geno each have equal talent on their wings then I don't see any issues. That's what management should look to find. 2 top 4 wingers that are pure snipers and 2 top 4 wingers that are solid defensively and can provide some toughness and physical play.

Having Hossa on the team offsets that balance, they can't have 2 #1 centers and just one elite winger like that and expect perfect team harmony.

Sorry for rambling, great post BTW. :)
You could look at it from this perspective though. While Sid would have Hossa, Geno could have the next two best wings available to balance the equasion out. Sort of the method where Sid picks first but if Geno picks second, he gets the next two. :wink:

If you looked at our top two lines, thats kind of how it played out. While Sid had a great winger, the most complete line was Malone-Malkin-Sykora (though they didnt show it in the finals).


I can certainly see that working (like it did), but that also once again raises the issue of money. How can you afford to have three players hogging up half of the teams cap space and expect to have enough left over for TWO good wingers for Geno? It's almost exactly what happened to Tamp Bay. You can't ice a Cup contender with 3 stars taking up half of the cap space, history clearly shows that it can't be done. Staal Fleury, WHitney, Letang, Gonchar and 2 great wingers for Geno? Unless they only keep a 15 man roster I don't see that being realistic.

If Hossa signs here, the Malkin trade rumors will begin to have some validity. Maybe not this season as much as next season.


Tampa was way under the cap during that period though.
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Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Jun 12, 2008 5:59 pm

I love how everyone here talks about Sid getting special treatment over Malkin, then at the same time act like Malkin should be the one getting preferential treatment. Sid is THE franchise center, he deserves the better winger on his line, and he is only getting one top-6 quality winger, the other player on his line is going to be a 3rd liner. Malkin played with 2 top six wingers and likely will do the same again. Who has it better? If Malkin comes back for a discount, that money will certainly go into helping the team out, thats the reason he should consider taking a pay cut. Sid didn't take a paycut because he wanted a better winger on his line, he took a paycut because wanted a better team on the ice.
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Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:00 pm

meecrofilm wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
crzymike wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
Stoosh wrote:Couple more thoughts I have on this...

1. This notion that Malkin is going to want to max out seems to come largely from a media guided mostly by the stereotype that most European hockey players only care about getting a big contract. I've heard it mentioned in articles in the Canadian media. I've heard Maguire mention it. It boils down to this for some of these media types:

Malkin = Euro = Max Contract

Connect the dots, I guess. There's no basis for it...nothing attributed directly to Malkin or his agent. And it's nothing but perpetuating this stereotype that the Euros don't care about the Cup as much as they do maxing out on a contract. Until I actually hear it from Malkin or his agent, I don't see him going for a max level deal.

2. I heard Starkey mention this yesterday on ESPN Radio 1250. When you factor in how much the cap could increase every year between now and the end of Crosby's contract, he left a hell of a lot more on the table than $1.5 million a year. Sid's contract could end up saving the Pens upwards of $20 million by the time it's time to ink him to a new one.


Sid is something of a hero for taking such a massive pay cut, but he knows how the business works and he knows what's important to him.

If he is making top dollar, he isn't going to have the best wingers he can get and that means that he wont have as many titles, trophies, or Cups when his destined to be legendary career has ended.

Now here is where it gets complicated for Ray Shero and the Penguins. Geno Malkin could have that exact same approach to his next contract and take 15% less then the current cap ceiling (around 9.1/season) like Sid did. Their combined pay cuts would allow the Penguins to spend money on a very good winger for one of them to skate with on a line. It would appear that Sid's need for a goal scoring winger is more important to the management and the fans then Geno's. If you were Geno Malkin, how would that make you feel?

This is part of what happened to Tampa Bays instant plummet. Vinny and Marty were like peas and carrots while Richards was forced to make do with whatever was left over for them to squeeze under the cap. It already appears Geno's left winger is going to be gone, does that mean he gets to play with Sykora and Talbot while management bends over backwards to make Sid happy for taking his pay cut?

My point is simply this: why should Malkin take less to play for a team that will use that money saved to help the teams "number one" center. Why should ANYBVODY begrudge Geno for feeling left out because of that? After all, as soon as Geno's line goes into a slump he will be the one taking all of the heat from the fans while Sid soaks up all the glory because his line mates make him appear to be the clear cut better player.

People say there are no egos, and that these things I have theoretically presented here are not what drives these world class athletes.But that's only because the people who discuss these things can't possibly fathom what each individuals career means to him.

Now if Sid and Geno each have equal talent on their wings then I don't see any issues. That's what management should look to find. 2 top 4 wingers that are pure snipers and 2 top 4 wingers that are solid defensively and can provide some toughness and physical play.

Having Hossa on the team offsets that balance, they can't have 2 #1 centers and just one elite winger like that and expect perfect team harmony.

Sorry for rambling, great post BTW. :)
You could look at it from this perspective though. While Sid would have Hossa, Geno could have the next two best wings available to balance the equasion out. Sort of the method where Sid picks first but if Geno picks second, he gets the next two. :wink:

If you looked at our top two lines, thats kind of how it played out. While Sid had a great winger, the most complete line was Malone-Malkin-Sykora (though they didnt show it in the finals).


I can certainly see that working (like it did), but that also once again raises the issue of money. How can you afford to have three players hogging up half of the teams cap space and expect to have enough left over for TWO good wingers for Geno? It's almost exactly what happened to Tamp Bay. You can't ice a Cup contender with 3 stars taking up half of the cap space, history clearly shows that it can't be done. Staal Fleury, WHitney, Letang, Gonchar and 2 great wingers for Geno? Unless they only keep a 15 man roster I don't see that being realistic.

If Hossa signs here, the Malkin trade rumors will begin to have some validity. Maybe not this season as much as next season.


Tampa was way under the cap during that period though.


And lost a star goaltender and made poor signings. People that think the big 3 killed Tampa have absolutely no idea what they are talking about.
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Postby crzymike on Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:01 pm

PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
crzymike wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
Stoosh wrote:Couple more thoughts I have on this...

1. This notion that Malkin is going to want to max out seems to come largely from a media guided mostly by the stereotype that most European hockey players only care about getting a big contract. I've heard it mentioned in articles in the Canadian media. I've heard Maguire mention it. It boils down to this for some of these media types:

Malkin = Euro = Max Contract

Connect the dots, I guess. There's no basis for it...nothing attributed directly to Malkin or his agent. And it's nothing but perpetuating this stereotype that the Euros don't care about the Cup as much as they do maxing out on a contract. Until I actually hear it from Malkin or his agent, I don't see him going for a max level deal.

2. I heard Starkey mention this yesterday on ESPN Radio 1250. When you factor in how much the cap could increase every year between now and the end of Crosby's contract, he left a hell of a lot more on the table than $1.5 million a year. Sid's contract could end up saving the Pens upwards of $20 million by the time it's time to ink him to a new one.


Sid is something of a hero for taking such a massive pay cut, but he knows how the business works and he knows what's important to him.

If he is making top dollar, he isn't going to have the best wingers he can get and that means that he wont have as many titles, trophies, or Cups when his destined to be legendary career has ended.

Now here is where it gets complicated for Ray Shero and the Penguins. Geno Malkin could have that exact same approach to his next contract and take 15% less then the current cap ceiling (around 9.1/season) like Sid did. Their combined pay cuts would allow the Penguins to spend money on a very good winger for one of them to skate with on a line. It would appear that Sid's need for a goal scoring winger is more important to the management and the fans then Geno's. If you were Geno Malkin, how would that make you feel?

This is part of what happened to Tampa Bays instant plummet. Vinny and Marty were like peas and carrots while Richards was forced to make do with whatever was left over for them to squeeze under the cap. It already appears Geno's left winger is going to be gone, does that mean he gets to play with Sykora and Talbot while management bends over backwards to make Sid happy for taking his pay cut?

My point is simply this: why should Malkin take less to play for a team that will use that money saved to help the teams "number one" center. Why should ANYBVODY begrudge Geno for feeling left out because of that? After all, as soon as Geno's line goes into a slump he will be the one taking all of the heat from the fans while Sid soaks up all the glory because his line mates make him appear to be the clear cut better player.

People say there are no egos, and that these things I have theoretically presented here are not what drives these world class athletes.But that's only because the people who discuss these things can't possibly fathom what each individuals career means to him.

Now if Sid and Geno each have equal talent on their wings then I don't see any issues. That's what management should look to find. 2 top 4 wingers that are pure snipers and 2 top 4 wingers that are solid defensively and can provide some toughness and physical play.

Having Hossa on the team offsets that balance, they can't have 2 #1 centers and just one elite winger like that and expect perfect team harmony.

Sorry for rambling, great post BTW. :)
You could look at it from this perspective though. While Sid would have Hossa, Geno could have the next two best wings available to balance the equasion out. Sort of the method where Sid picks first but if Geno picks second, he gets the next two. :wink:

If you looked at our top two lines, thats kind of how it played out. While Sid had a great winger, the most complete line was Malone-Malkin-Sykora (though they didnt show it in the finals).


I can certainly see that working (like it did), but that also once again raises the issue of money. How can you afford to have three players hogging up half of the teams cap space and expect to have enough left over for TWO good wingers for Geno? It's almost exactly what happened to Tamp Bay. You can't ice a Cup contender with 3 stars taking up half of the cap space, history clearly shows that it can't be done. Staal Fleury, WHitney, Letang, Gonchar and 2 great wingers for Geno? Unless they only keep a 15 man roster I don't see that being realistic.

If Hossa signs here, the Malkin trade rumors will begin to have some validity. Maybe not this season as much as next season.
If the cap was stagnate you might have an arguement. Dont forget if both Geno and Hossa are signed long term you create cost certainty for the ''big three'' for years to come. In two or three years those three will be bargains (relatively speaking). While the cap is very likely to go up, their salaries won't! :) Which will make it much more viable to sign and surround those three with some quality players.

Dont forget we have some good prospects and even if a minority of those pan out, they'd still save the team a lot of money. Believe me its duable, it might be tight for a couple years but three years down the road when the cap exceeds 60 million, we will have more money to fill other spots.
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Postby PenguinHockeyFanatic on Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:02 pm

meecrofilm wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
crzymike wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
Stoosh wrote:Couple more thoughts I have on this...

1. This notion that Malkin is going to want to max out seems to come largely from a media guided mostly by the stereotype that most European hockey players only care about getting a big contract. I've heard it mentioned in articles in the Canadian media. I've heard Maguire mention it. It boils down to this for some of these media types:

Malkin = Euro = Max Contract

Connect the dots, I guess. There's no basis for it...nothing attributed directly to Malkin or his agent. And it's nothing but perpetuating this stereotype that the Euros don't care about the Cup as much as they do maxing out on a contract. Until I actually hear it from Malkin or his agent, I don't see him going for a max level deal.

2. I heard Starkey mention this yesterday on ESPN Radio 1250. When you factor in how much the cap could increase every year between now and the end of Crosby's contract, he left a hell of a lot more on the table than $1.5 million a year. Sid's contract could end up saving the Pens upwards of $20 million by the time it's time to ink him to a new one.


Sid is something of a hero for taking such a massive pay cut, but he knows how the business works and he knows what's important to him.

If he is making top dollar, he isn't going to have the best wingers he can get and that means that he wont have as many titles, trophies, or Cups when his destined to be legendary career has ended.

Now here is where it gets complicated for Ray Shero and the Penguins. Geno Malkin could have that exact same approach to his next contract and take 15% less then the current cap ceiling (around 9.1/season) like Sid did. Their combined pay cuts would allow the Penguins to spend money on a very good winger for one of them to skate with on a line. It would appear that Sid's need for a goal scoring winger is more important to the management and the fans then Geno's. If you were Geno Malkin, how would that make you feel?

This is part of what happened to Tampa Bays instant plummet. Vinny and Marty were like peas and carrots while Richards was forced to make do with whatever was left over for them to squeeze under the cap. It already appears Geno's left winger is going to be gone, does that mean he gets to play with Sykora and Talbot while management bends over backwards to make Sid happy for taking his pay cut?

My point is simply this: why should Malkin take less to play for a team that will use that money saved to help the teams "number one" center. Why should ANYBVODY begrudge Geno for feeling left out because of that? After all, as soon as Geno's line goes into a slump he will be the one taking all of the heat from the fans while Sid soaks up all the glory because his line mates make him appear to be the clear cut better player.

People say there are no egos, and that these things I have theoretically presented here are not what drives these world class athletes.But that's only because the people who discuss these things can't possibly fathom what each individuals career means to him.

Now if Sid and Geno each have equal talent on their wings then I don't see any issues. That's what management should look to find. 2 top 4 wingers that are pure snipers and 2 top 4 wingers that are solid defensively and can provide some toughness and physical play.

Having Hossa on the team offsets that balance, they can't have 2 #1 centers and just one elite winger like that and expect perfect team harmony.

Sorry for rambling, great post BTW. :)
You could look at it from this perspective though. While Sid would have Hossa, Geno could have the next two best wings available to balance the equasion out. Sort of the method where Sid picks first but if Geno picks second, he gets the next two. :wink:

If you looked at our top two lines, thats kind of how it played out. While Sid had a great winger, the most complete line was Malone-Malkin-Sykora (though they didnt show it in the finals).


I can certainly see that working (like it did), but that also once again raises the issue of money. How can you afford to have three players hogging up half of the teams cap space and expect to have enough left over for TWO good wingers for Geno? It's almost exactly what happened to Tamp Bay. You can't ice a Cup contender with 3 stars taking up half of the cap space, history clearly shows that it can't be done. Staal Fleury, WHitney, Letang, Gonchar and 2 great wingers for Geno? Unless they only keep a 15 man roster I don't see that being realistic.

If Hossa signs here, the Malkin trade rumors will begin to have some validity. Maybe not this season as much as next season.


Tampa was way under the cap during that period though.


http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?fid=2708

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salary_cap

Actually they did max out their cap. They won the Cup, then there was the lock out (2 years as champs must have been nice :) ) and then they started the first cap year with a ceiling of 39 million. Vinny, Marty, and Richards took up over 19 of that. They continued to spend to the cap and still they continued to lose players and games.

Sure Sid, Geno, and Hossa would be fun to watch, just don't count on seeing any of them together in the finals again. :( Three super stars offsets a team balance way too much, if history tells us anything.
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Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:06 pm

PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
meecrofilm wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
crzymike wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
Stoosh wrote:Couple more thoughts I have on this...

1. This notion that Malkin is going to want to max out seems to come largely from a media guided mostly by the stereotype that most European hockey players only care about getting a big contract. I've heard it mentioned in articles in the Canadian media. I've heard Maguire mention it. It boils down to this for some of these media types:

Malkin = Euro = Max Contract

Connect the dots, I guess. There's no basis for it...nothing attributed directly to Malkin or his agent. And it's nothing but perpetuating this stereotype that the Euros don't care about the Cup as much as they do maxing out on a contract. Until I actually hear it from Malkin or his agent, I don't see him going for a max level deal.

2. I heard Starkey mention this yesterday on ESPN Radio 1250. When you factor in how much the cap could increase every year between now and the end of Crosby's contract, he left a hell of a lot more on the table than $1.5 million a year. Sid's contract could end up saving the Pens upwards of $20 million by the time it's time to ink him to a new one.


Sid is something of a hero for taking such a massive pay cut, but he knows how the business works and he knows what's important to him.

If he is making top dollar, he isn't going to have the best wingers he can get and that means that he wont have as many titles, trophies, or Cups when his destined to be legendary career has ended.

Now here is where it gets complicated for Ray Shero and the Penguins. Geno Malkin could have that exact same approach to his next contract and take 15% less then the current cap ceiling (around 9.1/season) like Sid did. Their combined pay cuts would allow the Penguins to spend money on a very good winger for one of them to skate with on a line. It would appear that Sid's need for a goal scoring winger is more important to the management and the fans then Geno's. If you were Geno Malkin, how would that make you feel?

This is part of what happened to Tampa Bays instant plummet. Vinny and Marty were like peas and carrots while Richards was forced to make do with whatever was left over for them to squeeze under the cap. It already appears Geno's left winger is going to be gone, does that mean he gets to play with Sykora and Talbot while management bends over backwards to make Sid happy for taking his pay cut?

My point is simply this: why should Malkin take less to play for a team that will use that money saved to help the teams "number one" center. Why should ANYBVODY begrudge Geno for feeling left out because of that? After all, as soon as Geno's line goes into a slump he will be the one taking all of the heat from the fans while Sid soaks up all the glory because his line mates make him appear to be the clear cut better player.

People say there are no egos, and that these things I have theoretically presented here are not what drives these world class athletes.But that's only because the people who discuss these things can't possibly fathom what each individuals career means to him.

Now if Sid and Geno each have equal talent on their wings then I don't see any issues. That's what management should look to find. 2 top 4 wingers that are pure snipers and 2 top 4 wingers that are solid defensively and can provide some toughness and physical play.

Having Hossa on the team offsets that balance, they can't have 2 #1 centers and just one elite winger like that and expect perfect team harmony.

Sorry for rambling, great post BTW. :)
You could look at it from this perspective though. While Sid would have Hossa, Geno could have the next two best wings available to balance the equasion out. Sort of the method where Sid picks first but if Geno picks second, he gets the next two. :wink:

If you looked at our top two lines, thats kind of how it played out. While Sid had a great winger, the most complete line was Malone-Malkin-Sykora (though they didnt show it in the finals).


I can certainly see that working (like it did), but that also once again raises the issue of money. How can you afford to have three players hogging up half of the teams cap space and expect to have enough left over for TWO good wingers for Geno? It's almost exactly what happened to Tamp Bay. You can't ice a Cup contender with 3 stars taking up half of the cap space, history clearly shows that it can't be done. Staal Fleury, WHitney, Letang, Gonchar and 2 great wingers for Geno? Unless they only keep a 15 man roster I don't see that being realistic.

If Hossa signs here, the Malkin trade rumors will begin to have some validity. Maybe not this season as much as next season.


Tampa was way under the cap during that period though.


http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?fid=2708

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salary_cap

Actually they did max out their cap. They won the Cup, then there was the lock out (2 years as champs must have been nice :) ) and then they started the first cap year with a ceiling of 39 million. Vinny, Marty, and Richards took up over 19 of that. They continued to spend to the cap and still they continued to lose players and games.

Sure Sid, Geno, and Hossa would be fun to watch, just don't count on seeing any of them together in the finals again. :( Three super stars offsets a team balance way too much, if history tells us anything.


Yes i believe it was you that posted these exact links another time, they went to the playoffs that year and lost because the didn't have a quality goaltender which is exactly what you'd expect in the playoffs.
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Postby PenguinHockeyFanatic on Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:16 pm

crzymike wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
crzymike wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
Stoosh wrote:Couple more thoughts I have on this...

1. This notion that Malkin is going to want to max out seems to come largely from a media guided mostly by the stereotype that most European hockey players only care about getting a big contract. I've heard it mentioned in articles in the Canadian media. I've heard Maguire mention it. It boils down to this for some of these media types:

Malkin = Euro = Max Contract

Connect the dots, I guess. There's no basis for it...nothing attributed directly to Malkin or his agent. And it's nothing but perpetuating this stereotype that the Euros don't care about the Cup as much as they do maxing out on a contract. Until I actually hear it from Malkin or his agent, I don't see him going for a max level deal.

2. I heard Starkey mention this yesterday on ESPN Radio 1250. When you factor in how much the cap could increase every year between now and the end of Crosby's contract, he left a hell of a lot more on the table than $1.5 million a year. Sid's contract could end up saving the Pens upwards of $20 million by the time it's time to ink him to a new one.


Sid is something of a hero for taking such a massive pay cut, but he knows how the business works and he knows what's important to him.

If he is making top dollar, he isn't going to have the best wingers he can get and that means that he wont have as many titles, trophies, or Cups when his destined to be legendary career has ended.

Now here is where it gets complicated for Ray Shero and the Penguins. Geno Malkin could have that exact same approach to his next contract and take 15% less then the current cap ceiling (around 9.1/season) like Sid did. Their combined pay cuts would allow the Penguins to spend money on a very good winger for one of them to skate with on a line. It would appear that Sid's need for a goal scoring winger is more important to the management and the fans then Geno's. If you were Geno Malkin, how would that make you feel?

This is part of what happened to Tampa Bays instant plummet. Vinny and Marty were like peas and carrots while Richards was forced to make do with whatever was left over for them to squeeze under the cap. It already appears Geno's left winger is going to be gone, does that mean he gets to play with Sykora and Talbot while management bends over backwards to make Sid happy for taking his pay cut?

My point is simply this: why should Malkin take less to play for a team that will use that money saved to help the teams "number one" center. Why should ANYBVODY begrudge Geno for feeling left out because of that? After all, as soon as Geno's line goes into a slump he will be the one taking all of the heat from the fans while Sid soaks up all the glory because his line mates make him appear to be the clear cut better player.

People say there are no egos, and that these things I have theoretically presented here are not what drives these world class athletes.But that's only because the people who discuss these things can't possibly fathom what each individuals career means to him.

Now if Sid and Geno each have equal talent on their wings then I don't see any issues. That's what management should look to find. 2 top 4 wingers that are pure snipers and 2 top 4 wingers that are solid defensively and can provide some toughness and physical play.

Having Hossa on the team offsets that balance, they can't have 2 #1 centers and just one elite winger like that and expect perfect team harmony.

Sorry for rambling, great post BTW. :)
You could look at it from this perspective though. While Sid would have Hossa, Geno could have the next two best wings available to balance the equasion out. Sort of the method where Sid picks first but if Geno picks second, he gets the next two. :wink:

If you looked at our top two lines, thats kind of how it played out. While Sid had a great winger, the most complete line was Malone-Malkin-Sykora (though they didnt show it in the finals).


I can certainly see that working (like it did), but that also once again raises the issue of money. How can you afford to have three players hogging up half of the teams cap space and expect to have enough left over for TWO good wingers for Geno? It's almost exactly what happened to Tamp Bay. You can't ice a Cup contender with 3 stars taking up half of the cap space, history clearly shows that it can't be done. Staal Fleury, WHitney, Letang, Gonchar and 2 great wingers for Geno? Unless they only keep a 15 man roster I don't see that being realistic.

If Hossa signs here, the Malkin trade rumors will begin to have some validity. Maybe not this season as much as next season.
If the cap was stagnate you might have an arguement. Dont forget if both Geno and Hossa are signed long term you create cost certainty for the ''big three'' for years to come. In two or three years those three will be bargains (relatively speaking). While the cap is very likely to go up, their salaries won't! :) Which will make it much more viable to sign and surround those three with some quality players.

Dont forget we have some good prospects and even if a minority of those pan out, they'd still save the team a lot of money. Believe me its duable, it might be tight for a couple years but three years down the road when the cap exceeds 60 million, we will have more money to fill other spots.


Hmmmm I want to believe it's possible, I really do but the only evidence I see is to the contrary. Even if the ceiling hit 60 million 2 seasons from now, and Gonchar is off the books, you would still have 3 players making about an average of 9 million (after "paycuts") for a total of 27 million. That's still almost half of the teams total cap!

You need at the very least 17 other players, if they make league minimum that's a total salary of 9.35 million for a cap hit of 36.35, leaving them with 23.65.

Fleury would suck up about 4 million of that, Staal about another 3. Whitney another 3.5. That leaves you with 12.85 million to spend to keep Letang, Orpik, a couple of great wingers for Geno....


I just don't know.
PenguinHockeyFanatic
 

Postby PenguinHockeyFanatic on Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:25 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
meecrofilm wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
crzymike wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
Stoosh wrote:Couple more thoughts I have on this...

1. This notion that Malkin is going to want to max out seems to come largely from a media guided mostly by the stereotype that most European hockey players only care about getting a big contract. I've heard it mentioned in articles in the Canadian media. I've heard Maguire mention it. It boils down to this for some of these media types:

Malkin = Euro = Max Contract

Connect the dots, I guess. There's no basis for it...nothing attributed directly to Malkin or his agent. And it's nothing but perpetuating this stereotype that the Euros don't care about the Cup as much as they do maxing out on a contract. Until I actually hear it from Malkin or his agent, I don't see him going for a max level deal.

2. I heard Starkey mention this yesterday on ESPN Radio 1250. When you factor in how much the cap could increase every year between now and the end of Crosby's contract, he left a hell of a lot more on the table than $1.5 million a year. Sid's contract could end up saving the Pens upwards of $20 million by the time it's time to ink him to a new one.


Sid is something of a hero for taking such a massive pay cut, but he knows how the business works and he knows what's important to him.

If he is making top dollar, he isn't going to have the best wingers he can get and that means that he wont have as many titles, trophies, or Cups when his destined to be legendary career has ended.

Now here is where it gets complicated for Ray Shero and the Penguins. Geno Malkin could have that exact same approach to his next contract and take 15% less then the current cap ceiling (around 9.1/season) like Sid did. Their combined pay cuts would allow the Penguins to spend money on a very good winger for one of them to skate with on a line. It would appear that Sid's need for a goal scoring winger is more important to the management and the fans then Geno's. If you were Geno Malkin, how would that make you feel?

This is part of what happened to Tampa Bays instant plummet. Vinny and Marty were like peas and carrots while Richards was forced to make do with whatever was left over for them to squeeze under the cap. It already appears Geno's left winger is going to be gone, does that mean he gets to play with Sykora and Talbot while management bends over backwards to make Sid happy for taking his pay cut?

My point is simply this: why should Malkin take less to play for a team that will use that money saved to help the teams "number one" center. Why should ANYBVODY begrudge Geno for feeling left out because of that? After all, as soon as Geno's line goes into a slump he will be the one taking all of the heat from the fans while Sid soaks up all the glory because his line mates make him appear to be the clear cut better player.

People say there are no egos, and that these things I have theoretically presented here are not what drives these world class athletes.But that's only because the people who discuss these things can't possibly fathom what each individuals career means to him.

Now if Sid and Geno each have equal talent on their wings then I don't see any issues. That's what management should look to find. 2 top 4 wingers that are pure snipers and 2 top 4 wingers that are solid defensively and can provide some toughness and physical play.

Having Hossa on the team offsets that balance, they can't have 2 #1 centers and just one elite winger like that and expect perfect team harmony.

Sorry for rambling, great post BTW. :)
You could look at it from this perspective though. While Sid would have Hossa, Geno could have the next two best wings available to balance the equasion out. Sort of the method where Sid picks first but if Geno picks second, he gets the next two. :wink:

If you looked at our top two lines, thats kind of how it played out. While Sid had a great winger, the most complete line was Malone-Malkin-Sykora (though they didnt show it in the finals).


I can certainly see that working (like it did), but that also once again raises the issue of money. How can you afford to have three players hogging up half of the teams cap space and expect to have enough left over for TWO good wingers for Geno? It's almost exactly what happened to Tamp Bay. You can't ice a Cup contender with 3 stars taking up half of the cap space, history clearly shows that it can't be done. Staal Fleury, WHitney, Letang, Gonchar and 2 great wingers for Geno? Unless they only keep a 15 man roster I don't see that being realistic.

If Hossa signs here, the Malkin trade rumors will begin to have some validity. Maybe not this season as much as next season.


Tampa was way under the cap during that period though.


http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?fid=2708

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salary_cap

Actually they did max out their cap. They won the Cup, then there was the lock out (2 years as champs must have been nice :) ) and then they started the first cap year with a ceiling of 39 million. Vinny, Marty, and Richards took up over 19 of that. They continued to spend to the cap and still they continued to lose players and games.

Sure Sid, Geno, and Hossa would be fun to watch, just don't count on seeing any of them together in the finals again. :( Three super stars offsets a team balance way too much, if history tells us anything.


Yes i believe it was you that posted these exact links another time, they went to the playoffs that year and lost because the didn't have a quality goaltender which is exactly what you'd expect in the playoffs.


Thank goodness MAF is not UFA this summer! Could you imagine how high his price would go?

BTW, if you were the TB GM would you have signed Khabibulin for more money then Broduer? The pens have it a little easier then TB did at the time but you have to look a few years from now and wonder what they will be able to afford with 27 million locked up in 3 players.

Let's also not forget that despite the Penguins unforgettable season, their defense was somewhat weak. Can they really afford not to sign Orpik? If the blueline gets worse they might have a hard time just making the playoffs!? Flower may have gotten tired from facing so many shots, can they really take a chance on him having to face even more shots by not spending big many on defensive players to help him? Signing Hossa does not allow them they option of bolstering their defense, even if Hossa himself is an incredible defensive player.
PenguinHockeyFanatic
 

Postby crzymike on Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:29 pm

PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
crzymike wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
crzymike wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
Stoosh wrote:Couple more thoughts I have on this...

1. This notion that Malkin is going to want to max out seems to come largely from a media guided mostly by the stereotype that most European hockey players only care about getting a big contract. I've heard it mentioned in articles in the Canadian media. I've heard Maguire mention it. It boils down to this for some of these media types:

Malkin = Euro = Max Contract

Connect the dots, I guess. There's no basis for it...nothing attributed directly to Malkin or his agent. And it's nothing but perpetuating this stereotype that the Euros don't care about the Cup as much as they do maxing out on a contract. Until I actually hear it from Malkin or his agent, I don't see him going for a max level deal.

2. I heard Starkey mention this yesterday on ESPN Radio 1250. When you factor in how much the cap could increase every year between now and the end of Crosby's contract, he left a hell of a lot more on the table than $1.5 million a year. Sid's contract could end up saving the Pens upwards of $20 million by the time it's time to ink him to a new one.


Sid is something of a hero for taking such a massive pay cut, but he knows how the business works and he knows what's important to him.

If he is making top dollar, he isn't going to have the best wingers he can get and that means that he wont have as many titles, trophies, or Cups when his destined to be legendary career has ended.

Now here is where it gets complicated for Ray Shero and the Penguins. Geno Malkin could have that exact same approach to his next contract and take 15% less then the current cap ceiling (around 9.1/season) like Sid did. Their combined pay cuts would allow the Penguins to spend money on a very good winger for one of them to skate with on a line. It would appear that Sid's need for a goal scoring winger is more important to the management and the fans then Geno's. If you were Geno Malkin, how would that make you feel?

This is part of what happened to Tampa Bays instant plummet. Vinny and Marty were like peas and carrots while Richards was forced to make do with whatever was left over for them to squeeze under the cap. It already appears Geno's left winger is going to be gone, does that mean he gets to play with Sykora and Talbot while management bends over backwards to make Sid happy for taking his pay cut?

My point is simply this: why should Malkin take less to play for a team that will use that money saved to help the teams "number one" center. Why should ANYBVODY begrudge Geno for feeling left out because of that? After all, as soon as Geno's line goes into a slump he will be the one taking all of the heat from the fans while Sid soaks up all the glory because his line mates make him appear to be the clear cut better player.

People say there are no egos, and that these things I have theoretically presented here are not what drives these world class athletes.But that's only because the people who discuss these things can't possibly fathom what each individuals career means to him.

Now if Sid and Geno each have equal talent on their wings then I don't see any issues. That's what management should look to find. 2 top 4 wingers that are pure snipers and 2 top 4 wingers that are solid defensively and can provide some toughness and physical play.

Having Hossa on the team offsets that balance, they can't have 2 #1 centers and just one elite winger like that and expect perfect team harmony.

Sorry for rambling, great post BTW. :)
You could look at it from this perspective though. While Sid would have Hossa, Geno could have the next two best wings available to balance the equasion out. Sort of the method where Sid picks first but if Geno picks second, he gets the next two. :wink:

If you looked at our top two lines, thats kind of how it played out. While Sid had a great winger, the most complete line was Malone-Malkin-Sykora (though they didnt show it in the finals).


I can certainly see that working (like it did), but that also once again raises the issue of money. How can you afford to have three players hogging up half of the teams cap space and expect to have enough left over for TWO good wingers for Geno? It's almost exactly what happened to Tamp Bay. You can't ice a Cup contender with 3 stars taking up half of the cap space, history clearly shows that it can't be done. Staal Fleury, WHitney, Letang, Gonchar and 2 great wingers for Geno? Unless they only keep a 15 man roster I don't see that being realistic.

If Hossa signs here, the Malkin trade rumors will begin to have some validity. Maybe not this season as much as next season.
If the cap was stagnate you might have an arguement. Dont forget if both Geno and Hossa are signed long term you create cost certainty for the ''big three'' for years to come. In two or three years those three will be bargains (relatively speaking). While the cap is very likely to go up, their salaries won't! :) Which will make it much more viable to sign and surround those three with some quality players.

Dont forget we have some good prospects and even if a minority of those pan out, they'd still save the team a lot of money. Believe me its duable, it might be tight for a couple years but three years down the road when the cap exceeds 60 million, we will have more money to fill other spots.


Hmmmm I want to believe it's possible, I really do but the only evidence I see is to the contrary. Even if the ceiling hit 60 million 2 seasons from now, and Gonchar is off the books, you would still have 3 players making about an average of 9 million (after "paycuts") for a total of 27 million. That's still almost half of the teams total cap!

You need at the very least 17 other players, if they make league minimum that's a total salary of 9.35 million for a cap hit of 36.35, leaving them with 23.65.

Fleury would suck up about 4 million of that, Staal about another 3. Whitney another 3.5. That leaves you with 12.85 million to spend to keep Letang, Orpik, a couple of great wingers for Geno....


I just don't know.
Well I think the cap will go up even more then that but I was being consevative. I also think the combine salaries of the big three would be between 25-26 million. It's only a couple extra million but that's likely a Dupuis type of player or two. Dont forget Letang and Goligoski will be a cheap for th next couple of years also. An there is a possiblity because of that offensive blueline presence, that we could move Whit for a cheaper alternative and or draft picks. I'd rather have to deal with that dilemna then giving up one of the best players in the game. It can be done.
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Postby Durbano on Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:35 pm

Thir-ty!

Thir-ty!

Thir-ty!
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Postby doublem on Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:40 pm

30, yes.
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Postby PenguinHockeyFanatic on Thu Jun 12, 2008 6:41 pm

crzymike wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
crzymike wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
crzymike wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
Stoosh wrote:Couple more thoughts I have on this...

1. This notion that Malkin is going to want to max out seems to come largely from a media guided mostly by the stereotype that most European hockey players only care about getting a big contract. I've heard it mentioned in articles in the Canadian media. I've heard Maguire mention it. It boils down to this for some of these media types:

Malkin = Euro = Max Contract

Connect the dots, I guess. There's no basis for it...nothing attributed directly to Malkin or his agent. And it's nothing but perpetuating this stereotype that the Euros don't care about the Cup as much as they do maxing out on a contract. Until I actually hear it from Malkin or his agent, I don't see him going for a max level deal.

2. I heard Starkey mention this yesterday on ESPN Radio 1250. When you factor in how much the cap could increase every year between now and the end of Crosby's contract, he left a hell of a lot more on the table than $1.5 million a year. Sid's contract could end up saving the Pens upwards of $20 million by the time it's time to ink him to a new one.


Sid is something of a hero for taking such a massive pay cut, but he knows how the business works and he knows what's important to him.

If he is making top dollar, he isn't going to have the best wingers he can get and that means that he wont have as many titles, trophies, or Cups when his destined to be legendary career has ended.

Now here is where it gets complicated for Ray Shero and the Penguins. Geno Malkin could have that exact same approach to his next contract and take 15% less then the current cap ceiling (around 9.1/season) like Sid did. Their combined pay cuts would allow the Penguins to spend money on a very good winger for one of them to skate with on a line. It would appear that Sid's need for a goal scoring winger is more important to the management and the fans then Geno's. If you were Geno Malkin, how would that make you feel?

This is part of what happened to Tampa Bays instant plummet. Vinny and Marty were like peas and carrots while Richards was forced to make do with whatever was left over for them to squeeze under the cap. It already appears Geno's left winger is going to be gone, does that mean he gets to play with Sykora and Talbot while management bends over backwards to make Sid happy for taking his pay cut?

My point is simply this: why should Malkin take less to play for a team that will use that money saved to help the teams "number one" center. Why should ANYBVODY begrudge Geno for feeling left out because of that? After all, as soon as Geno's line goes into a slump he will be the one taking all of the heat from the fans while Sid soaks up all the glory because his line mates make him appear to be the clear cut better player.

People say there are no egos, and that these things I have theoretically presented here are not what drives these world class athletes.But that's only because the people who discuss these things can't possibly fathom what each individuals career means to him.

Now if Sid and Geno each have equal talent on their wings then I don't see any issues. That's what management should look to find. 2 top 4 wingers that are pure snipers and 2 top 4 wingers that are solid defensively and can provide some toughness and physical play.

Having Hossa on the team offsets that balance, they can't have 2 #1 centers and just one elite winger like that and expect perfect team harmony.

Sorry for rambling, great post BTW. :)
You could look at it from this perspective though. While Sid would have Hossa, Geno could have the next two best wings available to balance the equasion out. Sort of the method where Sid picks first but if Geno picks second, he gets the next two. :wink:

If you looked at our top two lines, thats kind of how it played out. While Sid had a great winger, the most complete line was Malone-Malkin-Sykora (though they didnt show it in the finals).


I can certainly see that working (like it did), but that also once again raises the issue of money. How can you afford to have three players hogging up half of the teams cap space and expect to have enough left over for TWO good wingers for Geno? It's almost exactly what happened to Tamp Bay. You can't ice a Cup contender with 3 stars taking up half of the cap space, history clearly shows that it can't be done. Staal Fleury, WHitney, Letang, Gonchar and 2 great wingers for Geno? Unless they only keep a 15 man roster I don't see that being realistic.

If Hossa signs here, the Malkin trade rumors will begin to have some validity. Maybe not this season as much as next season.
If the cap was stagnate you might have an arguement. Dont forget if both Geno and Hossa are signed long term you create cost certainty for the ''big three'' for years to come. In two or three years those three will be bargains (relatively speaking). While the cap is very likely to go up, their salaries won't! :) Which will make it much more viable to sign and surround those three with some quality players.

Dont forget we have some good prospects and even if a minority of those pan out, they'd still save the team a lot of money. Believe me its duable, it might be tight for a couple years but three years down the road when the cap exceeds 60 million, we will have more money to fill other spots.


Hmmmm I want to believe it's possible, I really do but the only evidence I see is to the contrary. Even if the ceiling hit 60 million 2 seasons from now, and Gonchar is off the books, you would still have 3 players making about an average of 9 million (after "paycuts") for a total of 27 million. That's still almost half of the teams total cap!

You need at the very least 17 other players, if they make league minimum that's a total salary of 9.35 million for a cap hit of 36.35, leaving them with 23.65.

Fleury would suck up about 4 million of that, Staal about another 3. Whitney another 3.5. That leaves you with 12.85 million to spend to keep Letang, Orpik, a couple of great wingers for Geno....


I just don't know.
Well I think the cap will go up even more then that but I was being consevative. I also think the combine salaries of the big three would be between 25-26 million. It's only a couple extra million but that's likely a Dupuis type of player or two. Dont forget Letang and Goligoski will be a cheap for th next couple of years also. An there is a possiblity because of that offensive blueline presence, that we could move Whit for a cheaper alternative and or draft picks. I'd rather have to deal with that dilemna then giving up one of the best players in the game. It can be done.


Your handle is "crazy" Mike and you're living up to it. ;)

But seriously, if Ray Shero does pull it off, and team chemistry remains tight, and every players is productive and happy, then I will give you credit for having faith in the process. I just don't see those things all remaining solvent for the next 3+ seasons.

I'm looking at it like this:

Replace Armstrong and Christensen with UFA's this summer and bring back as much talent as possible. They would be wise to resign Orpik AND Eaton to help lower the shots against. Fleury is awesome, but NONE of the great goalies in the NHL have EVER faced as much rubber as he routinely does. Fleury is better then his numbers and I have nothing but respect for that young man. That soft goal in game 6 was only human, Roy and Broduer gave up far softer in the playoffs while facing much less rubber.
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Postby crzymike on Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:12 pm

My whole premise here is based upon the ownership and What RS has suggested. Most likely Sid,Geno,Jordan and Marc are here long term. Hossa may be a bit iffy but I see him staying. Players like Whit and Gonch could be trade bait but Id think Whit is more likely. Yes they (core group) will cost money but if we can get solid return on investment with lower tier players like Talbot, Scuderi, Hall ect there is no question we can pull it off. Sykora was a value pick up! Moves such as that one can keep players like Sid and Geno very happy as it pertains to surrounding them with quality for a relatively inexpensive price. Thats where we need to be very careful, that and as I said building strong draft classes to replentish the supply of young inexpensive players.
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Postby crzymike on Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:22 pm

As a follow up heres a great example. Colby vs Max. Both are good Pk'ers, both bring some positive energy and both are well regarded in the locker room. The difference, one is twice as expensive as the other. Personally I'd take Max even up anyhow. So basically you are getting the ''same type'' of player who can make similar contributions to the team but one at far less the price. These are the areas where by RS needs to be sharp. Signing players like Sydor for that salary is not the way to go, Sykora obviously was. If he makes good decisions along these lines we'll be fine like wine. :)
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Postby PenguinHockeyFanatic on Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:29 pm

crzymike wrote:As a follow up heres a great example. Colby vs Max. Both are good Pk'ers, both bring some positive energy and both are well regarded in the locker room. The difference, one is twice as expensive as the other. Personally I'd take Max even up anyhow. So basically you are getting the ''same type'' of player who can make similar contributions to the team but one at far less the price. These are the areas where by RS needs to be sharp. Signing players like Sydor for that salary is not the way to go, Sykora obviously was. If he makes good decisions along these lines we'll be fine like wine. :)


Better make that Mad Dog 20/20. There won't be any money left over for anything more expensive than that. :lol:
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Postby crzymike on Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:34 pm

PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
crzymike wrote:As a follow up heres a great example. Colby vs Max. Both are good Pk'ers, both bring some positive energy and both are well regarded in the locker room. The difference, one is twice as expensive as the other. Personally I'd take Max even up anyhow. So basically you are getting the ''same type'' of player who can make similar contributions to the team but one at far less the price. These are the areas where by RS needs to be sharp. Signing players like Sydor for that salary is not the way to go, Sykora obviously was. If he makes good decisions along these lines we'll be fine like wine. :)


Better make that Mad Dog 20/20. There won't be any money left over for anything more expensive than that. :lol:
Those examples are the reason it can get done. Personally I'd rather have to sweat out if we can afford these players then say Geno or Sid. Lets not forget, though we may be a bit top heavy, our key guys will be on the ice the majority of the time. Id rather have to fill 5 or 6 minutes of ice time with inferior talent to fit in under the cap then 20 or 25 minutes a game with lesser talent. An if RS makes prudent decisions regarding depth players, we can have the best of both worlds(that's what SHE said)! :D
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Postby PenguinHockeyFanatic on Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:46 pm

crzymike wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
crzymike wrote:As a follow up heres a great example. Colby vs Max. Both are good Pk'ers, both bring some positive energy and both are well regarded in the locker room. The difference, one is twice as expensive as the other. Personally I'd take Max even up anyhow. So basically you are getting the ''same type'' of player who can make similar contributions to the team but one at far less the price. These are the areas where by RS needs to be sharp. Signing players like Sydor for that salary is not the way to go, Sykora obviously was. If he makes good decisions along these lines we'll be fine like wine. :)


Better make that Mad Dog 20/20. There won't be any money left over for anything more expensive than that. :lol:
Those examples are the reason it can get done. Personally I'd rather have to sweat out if we can afford these players then say Geno or Sid. Lets not forget, though we may be a bit top heavy, our key guys will be on the ice the majority of the time. Id rather have to fill 5 or 6 minutes of ice time with inferior talent to fit in under the cap then 20 or 25 minutes a game with lesser talent. An if RS makes prudent decisions regarding depth players, we can have the best of both worlds(that's what SHE said)! :D



Well that's a powerful Van Hagar qoute you got there, but let
s just hope we aren't resigning Ouellet and Fata because that's the best of the affordable depth out there. Guts like Ruutu and Dupuis are not as common as you might think, you just don't plug anybody making league minimun in there and expect it to work. Not long ago the Pens tried that after the lockout and they ended up buying out the likes of Endicott. I would rather see that Hossa money spread out and the defnes eimproved upon. If they DO sign three super stars I want one of them to be a defense men like a Lidstrom, not all 3 fowards.
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Postby crzymike on Thu Jun 12, 2008 7:55 pm

PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
crzymike wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
crzymike wrote:As a follow up heres a great example. Colby vs Max. Both are good Pk'ers, both bring some positive energy and both are well regarded in the locker room. The difference, one is twice as expensive as the other. Personally I'd take Max even up anyhow. So basically you are getting the ''same type'' of player who can make similar contributions to the team but one at far less the price. These are the areas where by RS needs to be sharp. Signing players like Sydor for that salary is not the way to go, Sykora obviously was. If he makes good decisions along these lines we'll be fine like wine. :)


Better make that Mad Dog 20/20. There won't be any money left over for anything more expensive than that. :lol:
Those examples are the reason it can get done. Personally I'd rather have to sweat out if we can afford these players then say Geno or Sid. Lets not forget, though we may be a bit top heavy, our key guys will be on the ice the majority of the time. Id rather have to fill 5 or 6 minutes of ice time with inferior talent to fit in under the cap then 20 or 25 minutes a game with lesser talent. An if RS makes prudent decisions regarding depth players, we can have the best of both worlds(that's what SHE said)! :D



Well that's a powerful Van Hagar qoute you got there, but let
s just hope we aren't resigning Ouellet and Fata because that's the best of the affordable depth out there. Guts like Ruutu and Dupuis are not as common as you might think, you just don't plug anybody making league minimun in there and expect it to work. Not long ago the Pens tried that after the lockout and they ended up buying out the likes of Endicott. I would rather see that Hossa money spread out and the defnes eimproved upon. If they DO sign three super stars I want one of them to be a defense men like a Lidstrom, not all 3 fowards.
Hossa is easily a top 10 forward in this league and from what I saw of his playoff performance, he was as much as reason we got to the finals as anyone. No way would I want to lose him at all.

If you want a balance team like that it's fine, but I believe you win championships with elite talent and a solid system. Potentially this team has both. Dont forget the stars get the majority of the play so if we suffer on the third and fourth line so be it. If it enhaces our ability 40 minutes a game and subtracts the remaining twenty, it still works out in our favor. That doesn't mean it's a foregone conclusion we will suffer on the 3rd or 4th line though.
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