Article detailing why AO should not be Rookie of the Year

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Article detailing why AO should not be Rookie of the Year

Postby positive_pens_fan on Thu May 11, 2006 11:12 am

The insiders all agree: Alexander Ovechkin will be the winner of this year’s NHL's Rookie-of-the-Year award when the trophies are handed out on June 22. This is perfectly okay, since Ovechkin, technically, is an NHL rookie. But if you look more closely, it's easy to see Ovechkin is a seasoned veteran of professional hockey. The Russian phenom really shouldn't be eligible.
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Postby Sam's Drunk Dog on Thu May 11, 2006 11:22 am

As big of a Crosby fan as I am, Ovechkin deserves to win the Calder. He scored more goals, and more points, and did it on a team that was almost as horribly bad as the Pens were last year.

In the end it won't really matter who won the Calder. Do you think Wayne Gretzky's records or Stanley Cup wins or legacy for that matter is tarnished b/c he didn't win the Calder?

When these two are near the end of their careers and we are all 25 years older we will look back at their records, and Harts and Art Rosses and more importantly their Stanley Cups.

Right now Ovechkin and Craps fans might have bragging rights, but in the end I believe it will be Crosby who will be remembered as the better player.
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Postby socket on Thu May 11, 2006 11:22 am

Crosby Fan-Boy.

:shock:
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Well said Sam

Postby Penspal on Thu May 11, 2006 11:36 am

And just like Frodo said......"Sam... I'm glad you're with me."

Yep, AO should win the award. I think Sid kind of fell victim to a bad team, but I'm willing to be if you compare Sid's number next year to AO, this year it won't even be close, and Sid is still younger.

I don't want to make a big deal of the age thing, its all been done before with Makarov year's ago.

At the end of the day, its just a trophy, for guys who will have so many anyway, one more really won't make a difference.

Look at what Sid is doing now in the World Championship... the guy is a winner, and with him will come a winning attitude and eventually success for the Pens.

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Postby mnpensfan on Thu May 11, 2006 11:57 am

I'll be so happy when the damn awards ceremony is over with. I'm so sick of this debate. AO deserves to Calder.........end of story.

Now, I'll glady debate within the next couple of seasons over which of the two is the best player in the league, but this Rookie battle is so over played right now.......
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Postby DelPen on Thu May 11, 2006 11:57 am

Last time I checked the award was for the NHL rookie of the year, not for the best first year of professional hockey. If you want to go that way then the only people who should ever be allowed to compete for it would be players making a jump directly from the CHL or NCAA wthout ever playing in Euro Elite Leagues or the AHL or ECHL.

It's Ovechkin's, he earned it. The only consolation you can say is that Sid lost it due to the lock out becaue Ovechkin would have been winning the Calder last year.
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Calder

Postby penny lane on Thu May 11, 2006 12:13 pm

No problem with Alexander Ovechkin winning this award. None.
I think people had this decided when AO scored his "goal" against
phoenix. 50 goals scored by a rookie is amazing also.
Maybe Sid opened eyes wider with his manic finish of the season to
close gap to 4 points. (none or little PP time in Oct)

Only the beginning for AO/Sid, wait till we have the daily Evgeni / Sid comparisions.
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Postby elij21 on Thu May 11, 2006 12:25 pm

[quote="mnpensfan"]I'll be so happy when the damn awards ceremony is over with. I'm so sick of this debate. AO deserves to Calder.........end of story.

Now, I'll glady debate within the next couple of seasons over which of the two is the best player in the league, but this Rookie battle is so over played right now.......[/quote]

I second that!

Has much Crosby had a amazing season, Ovy had a better one. That's all to be said of it. It's not Ovy fault that he played in RSL at 16, If Crosby was russian he would of done the same thing.
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Postby pensfan66 on Thu May 11, 2006 12:38 pm

Just wanted to get my 2 cents in AO will probably win the Calder, but it should be considered that Sid did sport the A for half the season, he did take on a lot of the responsibility of team leadership. At the ripe old age of 18 he has shown the press and fans alike of his commitment to the game and to the Penguins. I love him and wish he would win but it doesn't matter anyway. He will have an amazing career, and like most things he will get better with age.
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Postby DelPen on Thu May 11, 2006 1:04 pm

pensfan66 wrote:Just wanted to get my 2 cents in AO will probably win the Calder, but it should be considered that Sid did sport the A for half the season, he did take on a lot of the responsibility of team leadership. At the ripe old age of 18 he has shown the press and fans alike of his commitment to the game and to the Penguins. I love him and wish he would win but it doesn't matter anyway. He will have an amazing career, and like most things he will get better with age.


And all of that makes a strong case for Sid being the Calder winner. I just think both are already so great that it will come down to a non-objective based tie breaker of points. If someone asks who you voted for and you say AO because even though it was close he had more points it's a good, easy reason.
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Postby Sparky on Thu May 11, 2006 5:17 pm

DelPen wrote:And all of that makes a strong case for Sid being the Calder winner. I just think both are already so great that it will come down to a non-objective based tie breaker of points. If someone asks who you voted for and you say AO because even though it was close he had more points it's a good, easy reason.


I dunno. Points are a little subjective, particularly assists and +/-, but sports run on statistics. Call me a homer, but I couldn't see anyone but Lundqvist or Ovechkin winning the Calder. I'd actually say that Lundqvist has the best case for it, while Ovechkin is the likely winner.

-Lundqvist and Ovechkin played for terrible teams (though the Rangers had a ton of talent) and made them better. Crosby came onto a team with Lemieux, Gonchar, Recchi, LeClair, Palffy and Tarnstrom, and the team collapsed. It wasn't his fault, and many of those guys got traded/hurt, but there's no perception there that he improved the team pre-trades/injuries.
-Lundqvist can't be a captain, Ovechkin didn't get a "C" or an "A", and Crosby did. It's great that he did, and I hope that he earned it, but outside of Pittsburgh a lot of folks say that he get the letter so he could talk to the refs more without fear of penalties. Fair or not, that perception is out there.
-The Pens had losing streaks of 6 games (3 times), 9 games and 10 games. The Caps had one of 6, one of 8. The Rags only lost as many as 6 games once. Again, those are team results, but they reflect on the individual players as well and weigh on the minds of voters. "Sure, Ovechkin is good, but he couldn't keep the Caps from dropping 8 in a row..."
-Ovechkin played in 81 games and scored in 65 of them, never going more than two games without a point, and that many only thrice. Ovenchicken had point streaks of 11, 8, 8, 7, and 6 games (not counting the shorter ones). Crosby played in 81 games and scored in 59 of them, once going three games without a point and only twice two games. He had point streaks of 10 and 6 games (also not counting the shorter ones). Ovechkin was more consistent throughout the year, while Crosby piled up almost as many points, but did it by scoring in bursts (more 3/4 point games, I'd guess).

Bottom line, two tremendous rookie seasons, and two great players for the future, but I can't see Crosby winning this award. Lundqvist should be the front-runner (much as I hate to say it), but because people find goals sexier than shutouts, Ovechkin probably will. :roll: I think Crosby is a fine player, and it'll be great watching this crop of rookies for years to come.
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Postby skullman80 on Thu May 11, 2006 5:25 pm

That article is pretty silly.

AO should win the Calder. Period. No "if" this or "if" that. I love Crosby and he had a fantastic year, with a fantastic finish, but AO deserves the Calder.
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Postby DelPen on Thu May 11, 2006 5:30 pm

Sparky wrote:
DelPen wrote:And all of that makes a strong case for Sid being the Calder winner. I just think both are already so great that it will come down to a non-objective based tie breaker of points. If someone asks who you voted for and you say AO because even though it was close he had more points it's a good, easy reason.


I dunno. Points are a little subjective, particularly assists and +/-, but sports run on statistics. Call me a homer, but I couldn't see anyone but Lundqvist or Ovechkin winning the Calder. I'd actually say that Lundqvist has the best case for it, while Ovechkin is the likely winner.

-Lundqvist and Ovechkin played for terrible teams (though the Rangers had a ton of talent) and made them better. Crosby came onto a team with Lemieux, Gonchar, Recchi, LeClair, Palffy and Tarnstrom, and the team collapsed. It wasn't his fault, and many of those guys got traded/hurt, but there's no perception there that he improved the team pre-trades/injuries.
-Lundqvist can't be a captain, Ovechkin didn't get a "C" or an "A", and Crosby did. It's great that he did, and I hope that he earned it, but outside of Pittsburgh a lot of folks say that he get the letter so he could talk to the refs more without fear of penalties. Fair or not, that perception is out there.
-The Pens had losing streaks of 6 games (3 times), 9 games and 10 games. The Caps had one of 6, one of 8. The Rags only lost as many as 6 games once. Again, those are team results, but they reflect on the individual players as well and weigh on the minds of voters. "Sure, Ovechkin is good, but he couldn't keep the Caps from dropping 8 in a row..."
-Ovechkin played in 81 games and scored in 65 of them, never going more than two games without a point, and that many only thrice. Ovenchicken had point streaks of 11, 8, 8, 7, and 6 games (not counting the shorter ones). Crosby played in 81 games and scored in 59 of them, once going three games without a point and only twice two games. He had point streaks of 10 and 6 games (also not counting the shorter ones). Ovechkin was more consistent throughout the year, while Crosby piled up almost as many points, but did it by scoring in bursts (more 3/4 point games, I'd guess).

Bottom line, two tremendous rookie seasons, and two great players for the future, but I can't see Crosby winning this award. Lundqvist should be the front-runner (much as I hate to say it), but because people find goals sexier than shutouts, Ovechkin probably will. :roll: I think Crosby is a fine player, and it'll be great watching this crop of rookies for years to come.


Lundqvist should win the Calder? Sparky, you've gone insane. Considering he's not up for the award would make that impossible. He's a very good goalie but the way the Rags offense exploded to start the year made his job a lot easier and he had 5 SEL seasons under his belt before this year AND he's 5 years older than Crosby and 4 years older than Ovechkin.
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Postby penny lane on Thu May 11, 2006 6:17 pm

Sparky wrote:
DelPen wrote:And all of that makes a strong case for Sid being the Calder winner. I just think both are already so great that it will come down to a non-objective based tie breaker of points. If someone asks who you voted for and you say AO because even though it was close he had more points it's a good, easy reason.


I dunno. Points are a little subjective, particularly assists and +/-, but sports run on statistics. Call me a homer, but I couldn't see anyone but Lundqvist or Ovechkin winning the Calder. I'd actually say that Lundqvist has the best case for it, while Ovechkin is the likely winner.

-Lundqvist and Ovechkin played for terrible teams (though the Rangers had a ton of talent) and made them better. Crosby came onto a team with Lemieux, Gonchar, Recchi, LeClair, Palffy and Tarnstrom, and the team collapsed. It wasn't his fault, and many of those guys got traded/hurt, but there's no perception there that he improved the team pre-trades/injuries.
-Lundqvist can't be a captain, Ovechkin didn't get a "C" or an "A", and Crosby did. It's great that he did, and I hope that he earned it, but outside of Pittsburgh a lot of folks say that he get the letter so he could talk to the refs more without fear of penalties. Fair or not, that perception is out there.
-The Pens had losing streaks of 6 games (3 times), 9 games and 10 games. The Caps had one of 6, one of 8. The Rags only lost as many as 6 games once. Again, those are team results, but they reflect on the individual players as well and weigh on the minds of voters. "Sure, Ovechkin is good, but he couldn't keep the Caps from dropping 8 in a row..."
-Ovechkin played in 81 games and scored in 65 of them, never going more than two games without a point, and that many only thrice. Ovenchicken had point streaks of 11, 8, 8, 7, and 6 games (not counting the shorter ones). Crosby played in 81 games and scored in 59 of them, once going three games without a point and only twice two games. He had point streaks of 10 and 6 games (also not counting the shorter ones). Ovechkin was more consistent throughout the year, while Crosby piled up almost as many points, but did it by scoring in bursts (more 3/4 point games, I'd guess).

Bottom line, two tremendous rookie seasons, and two great players for the future, but I can't see Crosby winning this award. Lundqvist should be the front-runner (much as I hate to say it), but because people find goals sexier than shutouts, Ovechkin probably will. :roll: I think Crosby is a fine player, and it'll be great watching this crop of rookies for years to come.


Change the 3 of these to the others' team:
Sid & AO would do well; Sid would put up numbers in DC.
The penguin talent was only on paper, never-ever did it happen. AO as a Ranger or penguin would have good numbers. Sid as a nyr may not have gotten enough time. Although, Sid with jagr ? that may have clicked.

So that leaves how would H Lundqvist survive as either the penguin
or caps goalie... No way can I see him "stealing" victories playing with
these 2 teams defense. The rangers success built on the dynamic
PP.
All fun hockey talk for sure.
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Postby Henry Hank on Thu May 11, 2006 6:52 pm

The problem with his example is he's saying guys like Thornton and Chara weren't considered rookies in the leagues they played in during the lockout, but the big difference is they played in a vastly superior league (i.e. the NHL) before entering that league. Ovechkin never faced NHL-calibre talent on a regular basis. He should be considered a rookie.

He'll get it, and that's fine with me. Personally, I consider Crosby's season to be more impressive because of his age, the pressure he had to perform, the leadership role he took, and doing all this in a very bad situation. Still, Ovechkin's accomplishments can't be ignored. He basically had the most impressive year for a first year player not named Gretzky when you compare him to his peers. Third in the league in scoring is unheard of for a true rookie. But then, before this year, so was finishing as high as sixth like Crosby did. I think Selanne might have accomplished that his rookie year. No matter how you look at it, at the very least you've gotta say that Crosby and Ovechkin had two of the greatest rookie seasons ever. We may never see two rookies have seasons like this together.
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Postby netwolf on Thu May 11, 2006 10:33 pm

I think the point about Ovechkin having played in a pro league is a valid one, and if at some point they made a change in eligibility requirements to address that, it would be an interesting debate.

However, there are no such requirements now, so it shouldn't factor into the voting at all. I expect Ovechkin will win it. If somehow Crosby does get it, I will be surprised though he is deserving as well. Crosby-haters and Cap fans would be driven to new levels of outrage though. :wink:

The funny thing is that all this talk of Ovechkin shouldn't get it because he played in a pro league in Russia will forget all about that when Malkin is up for it at this time next year. :lol:
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Postby DelPen on Thu May 11, 2006 10:37 pm

Henry Hank wrote:The problem with his example is he's saying guys like Thornton and Chara weren't considered rookies in the leagues they played in during the lockout, but the big difference is they played in a vastly superior league (i.e. the NHL) before entering that league. Ovechkin never faced NHL-calibre talent on a regular basis. He should be considered a rookie.

He'll get it, and that's fine with me. Personally, I consider Crosby's season to be more impressive because of his age, the pressure he had to perform, the leadership role he took, and doing all this in a very bad situation. Still, Ovechkin's accomplishments can't be ignored. He basically had the most impressive year for a first year player not named Gretzky when you compare him to his peers. Third in the league in scoring is unheard of for a true rookie. But then, before this year, so was finishing as high as sixth like Crosby did. I think Selanne might have accomplished that his rookie year. No matter how you look at it, at the very least you've gotta say that Crosby and Ovechkin had two of the greatest rookie seasons ever. We may never see two rookies have seasons like this together.


Just wait until Malkin and Kessel have a friendly competition next season to see who can break Crosby's rookie scoring Penguin record :wink:
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Postby Sparky on Fri May 12, 2006 10:51 am

DelPen wrote:Lundqvist should win the Calder? Sparky, you've gone insane. Considering he's not up for the award would make that impossible. He's a very good goalie but the way the Rags offense exploded to start the year made his job a lot easier and he had 5 SEL seasons under his belt before this year AND he's 5 years older than Crosby and 4 years older than Ovechkin.


Good to see you again too, Del, :D

Lundqvist turned 24 this march, it's not like he's pushing 30. As a goalie, that's quite young. 4th in save %, 5th in GAA, 12 losses in 53 starts, his numbers were outstanding regardless of the Rags offense (and despite their defense). He didn't make the final three, I know, but I would have had him there with Phaneuf and Ovechkin. As for the potential Malkin, Kessel, Crosby team, wow, that'd be great. The Caps would counter with Fehr, Ovechkin and Semin (he's coming back, it seems), making for a heck of a lot of young talent, not even considering the rest of the rosters.

Penny Lane, interesting post. I'm not sure Crosby would have performed as well with the Caps: Crosby is a great goal-scorer, but a brilliant passer and the Caps don't have the scorers that the Pens have/had. I just scanned back, and Recchi and/or Pallfy were in on 8 of Crosby's first 11 points. The next two highest scorers on the Caps (Zubrus and Halpern, 57 and 44 points) were in on only 4 of Ovechkin's first 11. I'm not sure how well Ovechkin would have done with reduced ice time on the Pens. With his shot he probably would have gotten PP time earlier, though, so maybe just as well, maybe not as well, maybe better (with better passers and finishers around him). I'm not sure Lundqvist wouldn't have helped the Caps. As good as Kolzig was most of the year, the Caps were 16-26 in their 42 one goal/shootout games. Kolzig had an .896 sv% and a 3.53 GAA. Lundqvist was .922 and 2.24. Even taking into account the differences between the teams, I can't help but think that Lundqvist's higher save percentage might have given the Caps a handful of extra wins. I think M-A Fleury's numbers were a little better than Kolzig's, and I don't know how many one-goal games the Pens played, so maybe Lundqvist wouldn't have made such a difference at the Igloo.

netwolf, yeah, if Crosby wins then Caps fans will go bonkers. That'd actually be sorta fun to see... :twisted:

Henry Hank, yeah, a bunch of incredible rookies this past year. Crosby was phenomenal in a really bad situation. Ovechkin was incredible on a very, very young, very, very bad Caps team. Phaneuf, Lundqvist, Svatos, Prucha, y'alls Colby Armstrong, Jeff Carter, the list goes on and on. Things are looking good for the league!
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Postby Peter on Fri May 12, 2006 11:45 am

Are we debating Crosby/AO again?

I'm pleasently surprised that more of you are not taking the 'I'm a penguin fan so crosby deserves to win it" stance. AO clearly deserves it. Life isn't fair, my amish brethren.
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