Pens, Sabres and Caps Inquire About Gaborik

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Postby KewellHandLuke on Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:45 pm

PensBeerGeek wrote:
Doogs wrote:Unless...say it with me...HE TAKES LESS TO PLAY WITH SID!!! :shock:


That's why we've gotta get him here. He's gotta fall in love with Pittsburgh so he'll take that hometown discount.


Once again, I'm assuming there are sarcasm tags.
Repeat after me ... no top flight talent is going to take less money to play with Sid and the Pens. Maybe a guy like Satan will take less on a one year deal to boost numbers so he can re-enter UFA, but I wouldn't call Satan a "top flight talent".
No UFA has taken less money to come play with Sid. Heck, Malone and Hossa didn't, why would a guy who claims to want $11/year?

I know it's summer and we're weeks away from anything interesting, but I can't believe we're all wasting our time discussing this.
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Postby Idoit40fans on Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:47 pm

The problem is that they just committed to multi year deals, next season they will have $41 million on the books and still be in need of signing at least 2 defenders, a backup goalie, and 8 forwards. Not saying there wont be money there, but when you figure at least 3 million for the defenders and goalie. that puts you at 44. Thats optimistic. Then you have 11 million to spend on someone like gaborik and 7 other forwards. Its not happening this year or next year.
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Postby crzymike on Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:48 pm

KewellHandLuke wrote:
PensBeerGeek wrote:
Doogs wrote:Unless...say it with me...HE TAKES LESS TO PLAY WITH SID!!! :shock:


That's why we've gotta get him here. He's gotta fall in love with Pittsburgh so he'll take that hometown discount.


Once again, I'm assuming there are sarcasm tags.
Repeat after me ... no top flight talent is going to take less money to play with Sid and the Pens. Maybe a guy like Satan will take less on a one year deal to boost numbers so he can re-enter UFA, but I wouldn't call Satan a "top flight talent".
No UFA has taken less money to come play with Sid. Heck, Malone and Hossa didn't, why would a guy who claims to want $11/year?

I know it's summer and we're weeks away from anything interesting, but I can't believe we're all wasting our time discussing this.
Money really wasn't the issue with Hossa apparently. I think if a player is offered CLOSE to what he wants, he might take a little less.
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Postby crzymike on Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:49 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:The problem is that they just committed to multi year deals, next season they will have $41 million on the books and still be in need of signing at least 2 defenders, a backup goalie, and 8 forwards. Not saying there wont be money there, but when you figure at least 3 million for the defenders and goalie. that puts you at 44. Thats optimistic. Then you have 11 million to spend on someone like gaborik and 7 other forwards. Its not happening this year or next year.
If you move Gonch it's workable. Or if Staal or Whitney are traded.
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Postby The Joker on Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:51 pm

crzymike wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:The problem is that they just committed to multi year deals, next season they will have $41 million on the books and still be in need of signing at least 2 defenders, a backup goalie, and 8 forwards. Not saying there wont be money there, but when you figure at least 3 million for the defenders and goalie. that puts you at 44. Thats optimistic. Then you have 11 million to spend on someone like gaborik and 7 other forwards. Its not happening this year or next year.
If you move Gonch it's workable. Or if Staal or Whitney are traded.


Moving Gonch to get Gaborik isn't worth it. Gonchar is an absolute steal on the current market and getting rid of that for injury-prone winger doesn't make much sense.
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Postby Idoit40fans on Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:53 pm

The definitely won't move Whitney. Well I won't say definitely, but its almost definite. Staal is a maybe, but even then, he was one of those players that would aren't included in that 41 million dollar figure, so that doesn't help anyway. It saves 2 million this season. That leaves Gonchar, which only happens/is beneficial if Whitney and Letang both really step it up this year.
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Postby crzymike on Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:55 pm

Heres a hypothetical situation that may arise. Lets say Staal doesn't sign an extension this summer and has a good year in 08-09, 26 goals 30 assists is a +15 and improves on faceoffs. He might command over 5 million per. WE could let him go and get I believe at least two first rounders a second and a third for him. We then would have the money freed up for an elite winger AND have plenty of high draft picks over the next few years. That IMO would be the way to go. Basically you'd be trading Staal for an all star wing, two first rounders a second and a third.
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Postby Idoit40fans on Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:57 pm

crzymike wrote:Heres a hypothetical situation that may arise. Lets say Staal doesn't sign an extension this summer and has a good year in 08-09, 26 goals and 30 assists and is a +15 and improves on faceoffs. He might command over 5 million per. WE could let him go and get I believe at least two first rounders a second and a third for him. We then would have the money freed up for an elite winger AND have plenty of high draft picks over the next few years. That IMO would be the way to go. Basically you'd be trading Staal for an all star wing, two first rounders a second and a third.


If you refer to my post that discusses the cap issue, that doesn't free up any money. You still have 14 million for at least 2 defenders, a backup goalie and 8 forwards.
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Postby crzymike on Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:00 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:
crzymike wrote:Heres a hypothetical situation that may arise. Lets say Staal doesn't sign an extension this summer and has a good year in 08-09, 26 goals and 30 assists and is a +15 and improves on faceoffs. He might command over 5 million per. WE could let him go and get I believe at least two first rounders a second and a third for him. We then would have the money freed up for an elite winger AND have plenty of high draft picks over the next few years. That IMO would be the way to go. Basically you'd be trading Staal for an all star wing, two first rounders a second and a third.


If you refer to my post that discusses the cap issue, that doesn't free up any money. You still have 14 million for at least 2 defenders, a backup goalie and 8 forwards.
Are you taking Staal off the books in that equasion because that frees up additional money if we get draft pcks.
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Postby Idoit40fans on Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:00 pm

crzymike wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
crzymike wrote:Heres a hypothetical situation that may arise. Lets say Staal doesn't sign an extension this summer and has a good year in 08-09, 26 goals and 30 assists and is a +15 and improves on faceoffs. He might command over 5 million per. WE could let him go and get I believe at least two first rounders a second and a third for him. We then would have the money freed up for an elite winger AND have plenty of high draft picks over the next few years. That IMO would be the way to go. Basically you'd be trading Staal for an all star wing, two first rounders a second and a third.


If you refer to my post that discusses the cap issue, that doesn't free up any money. You still have 14 million for at least 2 defenders, a backup goalie and 8 forwards.
Are you taking Staal off the books in that equasion because that frees up additional money if we get draft pcks.


Maybe i'm missing something, but how do draft picks free up money? The cap figures for 09-10 don't figure Staal because he doesn't have a contract signed through that year.
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Postby crzymike on Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:04 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:
crzymike wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
crzymike wrote:Heres a hypothetical situation that may arise. Lets say Staal doesn't sign an extension this summer and has a good year in 08-09, 26 goals and 30 assists and is a +15 and improves on faceoffs. He might command over 5 million per. WE could let him go and get I believe at least two first rounders a second and a third for him. We then would have the money freed up for an elite winger AND have plenty of high draft picks over the next few years. That IMO would be the way to go. Basically you'd be trading Staal for an all star wing, two first rounders a second and a third.


If you refer to my post that discusses the cap issue, that doesn't free up any money. You still have 14 million for at least 2 defenders, a backup goalie and 8 forwards.
Are you taking Staal off the books in that equasion because that frees up additional money if we get draft pcks.


Maybe i'm missing something, but how do draft picks free up money?
If Staal signs an offer sheet and we get picks, they wont count against the cap obviously until they are here. The money that Staal would be due next year (likely at least 4 million) could be used for that elite winger. So we'd have money to give to the winger in Staals absence and some draft picks as well. Also the salary cap is likely to go up so they'll very possibly be even more room.
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Postby crzymike on Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:10 pm

Apparently the ownership thought we could afford to keep both Staal and Hossa long term along with Whit, Malkin, Sid and Marc. They definitely will have the money.
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Postby Idoit40fans on Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:10 pm

crzymike wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
crzymike wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
crzymike wrote:Heres a hypothetical situation that may arise. Lets say Staal doesn't sign an extension this summer and has a good year in 08-09, 26 goals and 30 assists and is a +15 and improves on faceoffs. He might command over 5 million per. WE could let him go and get I believe at least two first rounders a second and a third for him. We then would have the money freed up for an elite winger AND have plenty of high draft picks over the next few years. That IMO would be the way to go. Basically you'd be trading Staal for an all star wing, two first rounders a second and a third.


If you refer to my post that discusses the cap issue, that doesn't free up any money. You still have 14 million for at least 2 defenders, a backup goalie and 8 forwards.
Are you taking Staal off the books in that equasion because that frees up additional money if we get draft pcks.


Maybe i'm missing something, but how do draft picks free up money?
If Staal signs an offer sheet and we get picks, they wont count against the cap obviously until they are here. The money that Staal would be due next year (likely at least 3 million) could be used for that elite winger. So we;d have money to give to the winger in Staals absence and some draft picks as well. Also the salary cap is likely to go up so they'll very possibly be even more room.


Lets say it goes up by 2 million, which is optimistic. Then the pens have 18 million to spend on at least 11 players. If you are giving 7-8 million to one player, you are talking about around 1 million per player the rest of the way. Thats 1 million a guy for 6 forwards(keep in mind they already have 2 clear-cut 3/4 line guys in cooke and godard), 1 million for a backup goalie, and 1 million for your 6 and 7 defenders(which is about right).

Its also hanging malkin out to dry. Well one of the top two lines.
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Postby Idoit40fans on Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:11 pm

crzymike wrote:Apparently the ownership thought we could afford to keep both Staal and Hossa long term along with Whit, Malkin, Sid and Marc. They definitely will have the money.


That was before Orpik signed. Do you believe he would still be here if they signed hossa?
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Postby crzymike on Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:14 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:
crzymike wrote:Apparently the ownership thought we could afford to keep both Staal and Hossa long term along with Whit, Malkin, Sid and Marc. They definitely will have the money.


That was before Orpik signed. Do you believe he would still be here if they signed hossa?
I dont know truthfully but with the cap likely goin up there will be room to sign a quality winger, particularly if Staal or Whit or Gonch leaves. The thing is if Staals the one to go, you take off salary and get picks, that to me is the best avenue to pursue.
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Postby crzymike on Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:19 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:
crzymike wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
crzymike wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
crzymike wrote:Heres a hypothetical situation that may arise. Lets say Staal doesn't sign an extension this summer and has a good year in 08-09, 26 goals and 30 assists and is a +15 and improves on faceoffs. He might command over 5 million per. WE could let him go and get I believe at least two first rounders a second and a third for him. We then would have the money freed up for an elite winger AND have plenty of high draft picks over the next few years. That IMO would be the way to go. Basically you'd be trading Staal for an all star wing, two first rounders a second and a third.


If you refer to my post that discusses the cap issue, that doesn't free up any money. You still have 14 million for at least 2 defenders, a backup goalie and 8 forwards.
Are you taking Staal off the books in that equasion because that frees up additional money if we get draft pcks.


Maybe i'm missing something, but how do draft picks free up money?
If Staal signs an offer sheet and we get picks, they wont count against the cap obviously until they are here. The money that Staal would be due next year (likely at least 3 million) could be used for that elite winger. So we;d have money to give to the winger in Staals absence and some draft picks as well. Also the salary cap is likely to go up so they'll very possibly be even more room.


Lets say it goes up by 2 million, which is optimistic. Then the pens have 18 million to spend on at least 11 players. If you are giving 7-8 million to one player, you are talking about around 1 million per player the rest of the way. Thats 1 million a guy for 6 forwards(keep in mind they already have 2 clear-cut 3/4 line guys in cooke and godard), 1 million for a backup goalie, and 1 million for your 6 and 7 defenders(which is about right).

Its also hanging malkin out to dry. Well one of the top two lines.
Didn't it just go up like 4 million? I think 2 million is a bit conservative. 4 million is more likely IMO. It's possible Caputi will be ready next year (9-10) and he'd be pretty cheap. Maybe you trade Gonch, that would free up some money if you took a lesser player back. There are ways to field a very good team and not have to worry about all the Wings playing musical chairs. We could afford one great wing or two very good wingers. Maybe try that(two very good wings).
Last edited by crzymike on Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Idoit40fans on Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:20 pm

Yeah you take off salary for this coming year. That doesn't help in 09-10, where they already have $41 million committed. Staal's salary is not included in that $41 million.

If they got Gaborik or someone in his ilk, either Malkin would be left out to dry on the second line(and we learned in the malkin trade rumor thread how much it would kill you to see him slighted), or the 3rd and 4th lines would be all rookies/career 13th forwards.

Basically the only way to keep this winger you're looking for is to move Gonchar, which only has a chance of happening if Whitney makes significant strides this year.

And yes the cap just went up a lot this year. There isn't much more room for league wide attendance to go up.

I've said all I can say about this.
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Postby crzymike on Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:26 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:Yeah you take off salary for this coming year. That doesn't help in 09-10, where they already have $41 million committed. Staal's salary is not included in that $41 million.

If they got Gaborik or someone in his ilk, either Malkin would be left out to dry on the second line(and we learned in the malkin trade rumor thread how much it would kill you to see him slighted), or the 3rd and 4th lines would be all rookies/career 13th forwards.

Basically the only way to keep this winger you're looking for is to move Gonchar, which only has a chance of happening if Whitney makes significant strides this year.

And yes the cap just went up a lot this year. There isn't much more room for league wide attendance to go up.

I've said all I can say about this.
I understand your not counting Staals contract. I am saying that they'd have to pay someone a lot of money if they replaced him. If Staal stayed they'd be on the hook for at least 4 million. My point was they could apply that money and add 2 or 3 million to it for an elite wing. So basically they'd be only 2 million over what theyd have to spend on Staal. Or as I said they could get two quality wings for say 4 million each. Those extra draft picks would assure us (if we draft well) of restocking our team with young cheap talent for at least there first three years.
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Postby bhaw on Sun Aug 03, 2008 11:54 pm

crzymike wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Yeah you take off salary for this coming year. That doesn't help in 09-10, where they already have $41 million committed. Staal's salary is not included in that $41 million.

If they got Gaborik or someone in his ilk, either Malkin would be left out to dry on the second line(and we learned in the malkin trade rumor thread how much it would kill you to see him slighted), or the 3rd and 4th lines would be all rookies/career 13th forwards.

Basically the only way to keep this winger you're looking for is to move Gonchar, which only has a chance of happening if Whitney makes significant strides this year.

And yes the cap just went up a lot this year. There isn't much more room for league wide attendance to go up.

I've said all I can say about this.
I understand your not counting Staals contract. I am saying that they'd have to pay someone a lot of money if they replaced him. If Staal stayed they'd be on the hook for at least 4 million. My point was they could apply that money and add 2 or 3 million to it for an elite wing. So basically they'd be only 2 million over what theyd have to spend on Staal. Or as I said they could get two quality wings for say 4 million each. Those extra draft picks would assure us (if we draft well) of restocking our team with young cheap talent for at least there first three years.


I think you are being a bit too optimistic. Let's say for argument's sake the cap goes up 3M. I agree with Idoit40Fans that this constant 4M increase will stop because there is a ceiling and we are getting close. So if 41M is committed, that gives us 17m. Thinking we can fill 8 forward spots is do-able until you consider what we already have:

Crosby
Malkin
Cooke
Godard
Dupuis

I believe that is it. That means we need FOUR top 6 wingers, at least 1 3rd liner (a center if Dupuis and Cooke play wing). Two fourth liners and an extra.

If you move Dupuis to top 6, you need TWO third liners instead of one. Even if you throw Caputi in the mix, he's going to start on the 3rd line.

Defense wise, we have

Gonchar
Whitney
Orpik
Eaton
Letang

Start taking away salary from the 17M figure now

Goligoski: -600
7th dman (if Gogo makes it): -600
Backup goalie: -1M
13th forward: -600

That leaves us 13.6 for our other 7 roster forwards.

Re-sign Talbot: 1.3M
Caputi: 650k
Other 4th liner: 650k

That's 11M to sign THREE top 6 guys and our 3rd line center or wing.

If we get a Gaborik for even 7M, we only have 4M for 2 more TOP SIX players and a 3rd line center or wing.

Can you do that? Sure, but you are going to be taking huge chances on those two wingers. Even if Talbot makes a little less, you aren't adding much to that account.
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Postby crzymike on Mon Aug 04, 2008 12:25 am

bhaw wrote:
crzymike wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Yeah you take off salary for this coming year. That doesn't help in 09-10, where they already have $41 million committed. Staal's salary is not included in that $41 million.

If they got Gaborik or someone in his ilk, either Malkin would be left out to dry on the second line(and we learned in the malkin trade rumor thread how much it would kill you to see him slighted), or the 3rd and 4th lines would be all rookies/career 13th forwards.

Basically the only way to keep this winger you're looking for is to move Gonchar, which only has a chance of happening if Whitney makes significant strides this year.

And yes the cap just went up a lot this year. There isn't much more room for league wide attendance to go up.

I've said all I can say about this.
I understand your not counting Staals contract. I am saying that they'd have to pay someone a lot of money if they replaced him. If Staal stayed they'd be on the hook for at least 4 million. My point was they could apply that money and add 2 or 3 million to it for an elite wing. So basically they'd be only 2 million over what theyd have to spend on Staal. Or as I said they could get two quality wings for say 4 million each. Those extra draft picks would assure us (if we draft well) of restocking our team with young cheap talent for at least there first three years.


I think you are being a bit too optimistic. Let's say for argument's sake the cap goes up 3M. I agree with Idoit40Fans that this constant 4M increase will stop because there is a ceiling and we are getting close. So if 41M is committed, that gives us 17m. Thinking we can fill 8 forward spots is do-able until you consider what we already have:

Crosby
Malkin
Cooke
Godard
Dupuis

I believe that is it. That means we need FOUR top 6 wingers, at least 1 3rd liner (a center if Dupuis and Cooke play wing). Two fourth liners and an extra.

If you move Dupuis to top 6, you need TWO third liners instead of one. Even if you throw Caputi in the mix, he's going to start on the 3rd line.

Defense wise, we have

Gonchar
Whitney
Orpik
Eaton
Letang

Start taking away salary from the 17M figure now

Goligoski: -600
7th dman (if Gogo makes it): -600
Backup goalie: -1M
13th forward: -600

That leaves us 13.6 for our other 7 roster forwards.

Re-sign Talbot: 1.3M
Caputi: 650k
Other 4th liner: 650k

That's 11M to sign THREE top 6 guys and our 3rd line center or wing.

If we get a Gaborik for even 7M, we only have 4M for 2 more TOP SIX players and a 3rd line center or wing.

Can you do that? Sure, but you are going to be taking huge chances on those two wingers. Even if Talbot makes a little less, you aren't adding much to that account.
Id rather have a great winger and a marginal winger on the first line then what we likely have now. Maybe we have to wait an extra year when Gonch comes off the books at 5 million per. Letang will get a raise but even so we should have more room then, in addition to the cap goin up. I think it's doable after next year but definitely after 09-10.
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Postby Bob McKenzie on Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:13 am

Couldn't we have just kept Carcillo :)

Maybe #66 will come out of retirement to play Sid's wing and play the left wing boards on the PP. :twisted:

We just don't have the cap room to make any more moves until the end of the year and when we rid ourselves of Sydor. One of the defenseman have to go. Certainly with Eaton signing, you would think Sydor is gone.
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Postby Bob McKenzie on Mon Aug 04, 2008 3:16 am

BTW, mark my words, I believe you'll see Gabby wearing a Canucks uniform. If they are going to throw crazy money at Sundin, they would do it for Gaborik. He's a "mini" version of Bure so there will be a lot of people wanting him to get there, especially with them being almost $30 mil under the cap next year.
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