speculating on shanahan

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Postby columbia on Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:34 pm

shmenguin wrote:
columbia wrote:
penny lane wrote:
columbia wrote:Does anyone actually believe that the Pens can WIN the Stanley Cup with Kennedy on the 3rd line.

I know all about the value of role players and Talbot, Dupuis and Cooke will do their parts this year.

I know all about the value of energy and effort when it comes to fore checking and back checking. The Pens had a rental player like that last year, but he happened to possess just a few more skills than Mr. Kennedy.

Someone please explain why we should be excited about Kennedy on the third line.


The rental player also wasn't here for 3rd line duty. The Rental player arrived with the label of chronic play-off underachiever. Comparing him to Kennedy doesn't seem fair. Last year Colby/EC were seeing 1st /2nd and 3rd line duty, until February. Even those 2 were able to help keep the pens in play-off contention~ minus Sid and Flower. Just like last September, GM Shero probably isn't looking at his play-off roster.

First concerns are making sure everybody arrives healthy for camp.


That's fair, but are you honestly looking forward to seeing Kennedy getting routine 3rd line time?

I'm sure someone can produce an example, but I haven't seen anyone post a proposed lineup that didn't include him in that spot.


kennedy is a great 3rd liner. if you think differently, you must not have watched the playoffs.


I watched every game.

Ok, please explain his exact hockey talent and do not include his energy and effort in your description.
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Postby Scott on Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:39 pm

This is a fast skater league now. If you want to win you better have a team of fast skaters. Speed will always prevail. Atleast until the other team cheats.. (see Detroit Red Wings) ;)
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Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:40 pm

Why wouldn't you include energy and effort in the description of a 3rd liner? When talking about a 3rd liner, you are looking for a player with heart that hustles, hits, and takes hits before you are looking for a playmaker or a guy that puts the puck in the net. Not to mention the fact that Kennedy does in fact have a good shot and pretty good hands.
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Postby columbia on Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:47 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:Why wouldn't you include energy and effort in the description of a 3rd liner? When talking about a 3rd liner, you are looking for a player with heart that hustles, hits, and takes hits before you are looking for a playmaker or a guy that puts the puck in the net. Not to mention the fact that Kennedy does in fact have a good shot and pretty good hands.


Because there are thousands of aspiring NHL-ers with lots of energy and effort.
That's the real-world equivalent of consistently showing up to work on time.
It's a given for anyone who is going to make an impact in this world and he offers little else in the way of talent.
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Postby PenguinHockeyFanatic on Wed Aug 20, 2008 7:56 pm

On the PP he would pay dividends, certainly as good if not better than Malone in that role. But at ES he is just a 4th liner. A 1 year deal for under 1.5 is not a bad deal, even if he only plays 40 games plus playoffs.

But Lord forbid Pessonan be challenged for his "rightful" spot on the roster. :roll:
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Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:00 pm

columbia wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Why wouldn't you include energy and effort in the description of a 3rd liner? When talking about a 3rd liner, you are looking for a player with heart that hustles, hits, and takes hits before you are looking for a playmaker or a guy that puts the puck in the net. Not to mention the fact that Kennedy does in fact have a good shot and pretty good hands.

It's a given for anyone who is going to make an impact in this world


So it shouldn't be mentioned? You made the exact same point as I made. He has hustle, speed, good hands, and a good shot. He'd be a third liner on any team, unless of course it was really bad and he was a second liner.
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Postby columbia on Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:04 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:
columbia wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Why wouldn't you include energy and effort in the description of a 3rd liner? When talking about a 3rd liner, you are looking for a player with heart that hustles, hits, and takes hits before you are looking for a playmaker or a guy that puts the puck in the net. Not to mention the fact that Kennedy does in fact have a good shot and pretty good hands.

It's a given for anyone who is going to make an impact in this world


So it shouldn't be mentioned? You made the exact same point as I made. He has hustle, speed, good hands, and a good shot. He'd be a third liner on any team, unless of course it was really bad and he was a second liner.


I think he would be a passable 3rd-liner on the Columbus Blue Jackets.
The Pens are hosed if they hope to WIN the Cup with someone like him on the 3rd line.
Do you think he would be more than a healthy scratch on the Red Wings?
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Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:09 pm

columbia wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
columbia wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Why wouldn't you include energy and effort in the description of a 3rd liner? When talking about a 3rd liner, you are looking for a player with heart that hustles, hits, and takes hits before you are looking for a playmaker or a guy that puts the puck in the net. Not to mention the fact that Kennedy does in fact have a good shot and pretty good hands.

It's a given for anyone who is going to make an impact in this world


So it shouldn't be mentioned? You made the exact same point as I made. He has hustle, speed, good hands, and a good shot. He'd be a third liner on any team, unless of course it was really bad and he was a second liner.


I think he would be a passable 3rd-liner on the Columbus Blue Jackets.
The Pens are hosed if they hope to WIN the Cup with someone like him on the 3rd line.
Do you think he would be more than a healthy scratch on the Red Wings?


No, but he is too small for the western conference style of play over the course of a full season, so thats irrelevant. I guess I should rephrase my previous statement, he is skilled enough to be a third liner on any team.
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Postby JoseCuervo on Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:20 pm

I like kennedy, but I'm with columbia on this one. He's got a great chance of making the team due to his work ethic, but he needs to increase his scoring and his chances. He didn't really have much of a play-making center last year, but he has the skill to work corners which can really tire teams. Right now, I like TK as a 4th liner.

I want at least 3 lines capable of putting the puck in the net before I even mention the Stanley Cup. High energy guys are great at changing pace and challenging the opponent and wearing them down. That's TKs game right now. I can't say he's a career fourth liner because that was his first year. If he can improve on his scoring, he'll become a great 3rd liner. I want to see some improvement, but I'm not passing judgment after one year.
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Postby Kicksave on Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:21 pm

JoseCuervo wrote:I like kennedy, but I'm with columbia on this one. He's got a great chance of making the team due to his work ethic, but he needs to increase his scoring and his chances. He didn't really have much of a play-making center last year, but he has the skill to work corners which can really tire teams. Right now, I like TK as a 4th liner.

I want at least 3 lines capable of putting the puck in the net before I even mention the Stanley Cup. High energy guys are great at changing pace and challenging the opponent and wearing them down. That's TKs game right now. I can't say he's a career fourth liner because that was his first year. If he can improve on his scoring, he'll become a great 3rd liner. I want to see some improvement, but I'm not passing judgment after one year.


Who was on Detroit's 3rd line?
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Postby JoseCuervo on Wed Aug 20, 2008 8:27 pm

Kicksave wrote:
JoseCuervo wrote:I like kennedy, but I'm with columbia on this one. He's got a great chance of making the team due to his work ethic, but he needs to increase his scoring and his chances. He didn't really have much of a play-making center last year, but he has the skill to work corners which can really tire teams. Right now, I like TK as a 4th liner.

I want at least 3 lines capable of putting the puck in the net before I even mention the Stanley Cup. High energy guys are great at changing pace and challenging the opponent and wearing them down. That's TKs game right now. I can't say he's a career fourth liner because that was his first year. If he can improve on his scoring, he'll become a great 3rd liner. I want to see some improvement, but I'm not passing judgment after one year.


Who was on Detroit's 3rd line?


I believed they changed their lines around throughout the playoffs but, correct me if I'm wrong, 3rd liners consisted of hudler, helm, samuelsson? Not sure if cleary and filppula played there when franzen came back. But they got scoring from them against the pens.
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Postby Draftnik on Wed Aug 20, 2008 9:28 pm

Shanahan sucks. He's never been the same since the Knuble collision. Did he even play vs. the Pens in the playoffs? 5 games, 0 goals, 1 assist, -3. No thanks.
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Postby shmenguin on Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:34 am

columbia wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
columbia wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Why wouldn't you include energy and effort in the description of a 3rd liner? When talking about a 3rd liner, you are looking for a player with heart that hustles, hits, and takes hits before you are looking for a playmaker or a guy that puts the puck in the net. Not to mention the fact that Kennedy does in fact have a good shot and pretty good hands.

It's a given for anyone who is going to make an impact in this world


So it shouldn't be mentioned? You made the exact same point as I made. He has hustle, speed, good hands, and a good shot. He'd be a third liner on any team, unless of course it was really bad and he was a second liner.


I think he would be a passable 3rd-liner on the Columbus Blue Jackets.
The Pens are hosed if they hope to WIN the Cup with someone like him on the 3rd line.
Do you think he would be more than a healthy scratch on the Red Wings?


i guess we could trade malkin for 3 awesome 3rd liners and a pretty good second line center. then we'd be in perfect position. :roll: what kind of player do you really want on the 3rd line on this team? we'll never be able to overpay guys to play on that line. our deck is stacked salary-wise and we need to fill in the lower spots with cheap, young players....like you know who.

but whatever, 3rd liners aren't expected to do much more than squat offensively. so kennedy's a great fit. and if you're using detroit as a model lineup, then every team has failed miserably except for detroit.
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Postby Pitts on Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:58 am

columbia wrote:The Pens are hosed if they hope to WIN the Cup with someone like him on the 3rd line.

I may have missed something last spring, but didn't the Pens come to within 2 games of winning the Cup with Kennedy on the 3rd line? Maybe they got there in spite of him wasting time on the 3rd line?
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Postby Henry Hank on Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:08 am

Kennedy is exactly what you want on the third line. A fast, hard working, gritty player with some offensive talent. Shanahan is exactly what you don't want. A slow, past his prime player whose about ready to flame out. I'm really confused how someone is at the point where they're seriously questioning if Kennedy is something holding them back from winning the Cup. Especially when said person's solution is to bring in Shanahan. :shock: Kennedy was the guy who took the spot of Recchi when it was obvious that he was done. Why would they reverse that good move?
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Postby Pitts on Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:50 am

Some people do not believe a team can be good unless they have "superstar" names throughout the lineup. They should go be Ranger fans.
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Postby penny lane on Thu Aug 21, 2008 11:11 am

Pitts wrote:
columbia wrote:The Pens are hosed if they hope to WIN the Cup with someone like him on the 3rd line.

I may have missed something last spring, but didn't the Pens come to within 2 games of winning the Cup with Kennedy on the 3rd line? Maybe they got there in spite of him wasting time on the 3rd line?


After the ducks won the cup everybody thought the NHL would follow their model ... it doesn't happen that way. What about the canes from 06?
If the pens had won just one of the games in detroit...if/ands/butts :)

(you really didn't mean to say hosed, did you)
:wink:
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Postby Sarcastic on Thu Aug 21, 2008 1:53 pm

I'll take Kennedy over Shanny on the third. There is definitely an urge to sign Shanahan, because he's been such a great player, but this is a skaters' league now. Also, Shanny needs to play on the top two lines to be effective and I don't think he has it in him anymore. Again, you need energetic skaters on the third... that's where a guy like Kennedy comes in.
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Postby columbia on Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:46 pm

shmenguin wrote:
columbia wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
columbia wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Why wouldn't you include energy and effort in the description of a 3rd liner? When talking about a 3rd liner, you are looking for a player with heart that hustles, hits, and takes hits before you are looking for a playmaker or a guy that puts the puck in the net. Not to mention the fact that Kennedy does in fact have a good shot and pretty good hands.

It's a given for anyone who is going to make an impact in this world


So it shouldn't be mentioned? You made the exact same point as I made. He has hustle, speed, good hands, and a good shot. He'd be a third liner on any team, unless of course it was really bad and he was a second liner.


I think he would be a passable 3rd-liner on the Columbus Blue Jackets.
The Pens are hosed if they hope to WIN the Cup with someone like him on the 3rd line.
Do you think he would be more than a healthy scratch on the Red Wings?


i guess we could trade malkin for 3 awesome 3rd liners and a pretty good second line center. then we'd be in perfect position. :roll: what kind of player do you really want on the 3rd line on this team? we'll never be able to overpay guys to play on that line. our deck is stacked salary-wise and we need to fill in the lower spots with cheap, young players....like you know who.

but whatever, 3rd liners aren't expected to do much more than squat offensively. so kennedy's a great fit. and if you're using detroit as a model lineup, then every team has failed miserably except for detroit.


I would say the Detroit is the only model you should strive for if you want to WIN the Cup.

The Wings are even better now and the Pens - as of now - are not quite the team that lost in the finals. Of course the improvement of 4-5 key players could make up for that.

Having Kennedy - who would have been a tremendous asset on the 1981 squad - as a prominent 3rd liner is not the recipe for a cup winner. It seems obvious to me.
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Postby JoseCuervo on Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:51 pm

columbia wrote:I would say the Detroit is the only model you should strive for if you want to WIN the Cup.

The Wings are even better now and the Pens - as of now - are not quite the team that lost in the finals. Of course the improvement of 4-5 key players could make up for that.

Having Kennedy - who would have been a tremendous asset on the 1981 squad - as a prominent 3rd liner is not the recipe for a cup winner. It seems obvious to me.


If kennedy could be a proven scoring threat, I'd say he's a great third liner. Until he shows that though (he has time- it's his second year), I'm not gonna pass judgment on him. It's something to work on.
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Postby PenguinHockeyFanatic on Thu Aug 21, 2008 5:51 pm

columbia wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
columbia wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
columbia wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Why wouldn't you include energy and effort in the description of a 3rd liner? When talking about a 3rd liner, you are looking for a player with heart that hustles, hits, and takes hits before you are looking for a playmaker or a guy that puts the puck in the net. Not to mention the fact that Kennedy does in fact have a good shot and pretty good hands.

It's a given for anyone who is going to make an impact in this world


So it shouldn't be mentioned? You made the exact same point as I made. He has hustle, speed, good hands, and a good shot. He'd be a third liner on any team, unless of course it was really bad and he was a second liner.


I think he would be a passable 3rd-liner on the Columbus Blue Jackets.
The Pens are hosed if they hope to WIN the Cup with someone like him on the 3rd line.
Do you think he would be more than a healthy scratch on the Red Wings?


i guess we could trade malkin for 3 awesome 3rd liners and a pretty good second line center. then we'd be in perfect position. :roll: what kind of player do you really want on the 3rd line on this team? we'll never be able to overpay guys to play on that line. our deck is stacked salary-wise and we need to fill in the lower spots with cheap, young players....like you know who.

but whatever, 3rd liners aren't expected to do much more than squat offensively. so kennedy's a great fit. and if you're using detroit as a model lineup, then every team has failed miserably except for detroit.


I would say the Detroit is the only model you should strive for if you want to WIN the Cup.

The Wings are even better now and the Pens - as of now - are not quite the team that lost in the finals. Of course the improvement of 4-5 key players could make up for that.

Having Kennedy - who would have been a tremendous asset on the 1981 squad - as a prominent 3rd liner is not the recipe for a cup winner. It seems obvious to me.


He had a very, very poor post season and bringing in as much competition as possible to challenge that young player is the proper way to manage the situation. And that's precisely what Shero is doing IMO. So it's up to Kennedy to re-win his spot on the team, and like everybody, earn his minutes. Therrien shows no favorites IMO and beating the crap out of a Flyer doesn't ensure any job security at all.
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Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:03 pm

JoseCuervo wrote:
columbia wrote:I would say the Detroit is the only model you should strive for if you want to WIN the Cup.

The Wings are even better now and the Pens - as of now - are not quite the team that lost in the finals. Of course the improvement of 4-5 key players could make up for that.

Having Kennedy - who would have been a tremendous asset on the 1981 squad - as a prominent 3rd liner is not the recipe for a cup winner. It seems obvious to me.


If kennedy could be a proven scoring threat, I'd say he's a great third liner. Until he shows that though (he has time- it's his second year), I'm not gonna pass judgment on him. It's something to work on.


If he were a proven scoring threat, he would be on one of the scoring lines.
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Postby canaan on Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:04 pm

Eismann wrote:Dean Hannah's Barn


the most worthwhile post in this thread. 8-)
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Postby canaan on Thu Aug 21, 2008 6:05 pm

DelPen wrote:
SolidSnake wrote:In that 4th period article it said they are looking to get rid of Rosy.


So sign a UFA to an insane over-priced deal to only trade him? Either that site is a complete joke or the Rags are.


the 4thpd got it from a :cough: larry brooks column. nuff said.
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Postby beerman on Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:05 am

columbia wrote:I would say the Detroit is the only model you should strive for if you want to WIN the Cup.

The Wings are even better now and the Pens - as of now - are not quite the team that lost in the finals. Of course the improvement of 4-5 key players could make up for that.

Having Kennedy - who would have been a tremendous asset on the 1981 squad - as a prominent 3rd liner is not the recipe for a cup winner. It seems obvious to me.


Detroit also has top players like Zetterberg and Franzen who are set to make 2.9 and 1.5 respectively this season. That makes it a hell of a lot easier to put together a really good 3rd line. Wait till those guys sign new deals and see what they put together on the 3rd line then.
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