losses vs gains

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losses vs gains

Postby Max Power on Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:58 pm

Who's to even say that Malone would duplicate that season if he were here? It's an unknown. Heck it may require a long courtship with him until the chemestry is right. Still who knows?

What is known is Malkin will continue to improve upon what was an MVP type of season already. Crosby is Crosby and the luxury of having both on one roster is incredible.

Regardless of how the replacements do, we already had a solid core of talented players that are more than willing to go into battle. It's a long long season and I expect a slight let down as we ease into it and then they should get their balance and will take off. At least I hope so.....
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Postby ffemtreed on Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:31 pm

I think this team is more well rounded and talented than last years starting lineup. Losing Hossa really hurts, but we did good without him last year.

Malone can easily be replaced be anyone who is willing to work hard and play in the corners and front of the net.
Roberts hardly played and got limited ice time when he did play.
Laraque was Laraque, he had a couple nice games but was pretty much a non-factor, we will miss his ability to control the puck down low.
Ruutu will be missed the most out of everyone, but picking up Cooke really softens that blow, actually i would pick cooke over rutuu if I had to chose.
Adam Hall's specialty position will be easily filled with a call up from WBS or another journeyman vet.

Pesonen is a wildcard and could flop or score 40 goals!! I don't think there is any in between for him. Low risk

Satan will be a monster playing with Sid or Malkin, I am really excited to see how he does.

Fedotenko should replace what was lost on with Malone going to Tampa, I am thinking this is a wash though.

Godard might just be more scary in the lineup than big georges, he has the crazyness factor that is missing from GL. If he can learn to stay out of the box or make sure he takes someone with him this will be a good pickup for the Pens.
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Postby wallflower on Wed Sep 03, 2008 4:47 pm

ffemtreed wrote:I think this team is more well rounded and talented than last years starting lineup.

This, exactly.

I have to chuckle when people talk about the loss of Hossa hurting the Pens going into this season - Hossa had nothing to do with the Pens' great regular season & them making the playoffs. Yes, he helped once they were there but he was a non-factor until that point.
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Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Sep 03, 2008 5:05 pm

wallflower wrote:
ffemtreed wrote:I think this team is more well rounded and talented than last years starting lineup.

This, exactly.

I have to chuckle when people talk about the loss of Hossa hurting the Pens going into this season - Hossa had nothing to do with the Pens' great regular season & them making the playoffs. Yes, he helped once they were there but he was a non-factor until that point.


I've had 3 seperate epic arguments about this, I'm sick of people thinking losing Hossa is going to hurt the penguins record. There is no reason the pens can't win the Atlantic without him.
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Re: losses vs gains

Postby PenguinHockeyFanatic on Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:35 pm

Max Power wrote:Who's to even say that Malone would duplicate that season if he were here?


I'm so tired of this hypocritical rationality!! "Who's to say Fed Ex will have another 20 point season, who is to say Satan wont improve upon his 7 hits last season under Iron Mike T, who is to say that a 5'4" 26 year old rookie from a virtual no-contact league can't dig out thos pucks in the corner just like Malone!"

Just shut up! All of you! You suck at stating anything even closely resembling a fact based opinion!
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Re: losses vs gains

Postby IrishEyes on Wed Sep 03, 2008 7:57 pm

PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
Max Power wrote:Who's to even say that Malone would duplicate that season if he were here?


I'm so tired of this hypocritical rationality!! "Who's to say Fed Ex will have another 20 point season, who is to say Satan wont improve upon his 7 hits last season under Iron Mike T, who is to say that a 5'4" 26 year old rookie from a virtual no-contact league can't dig out thos pucks in the corner just like Malone!"

Just shut up! All of you! You suck at stating anything even closely resembling a fact based opinion!


I bought you something...

It's called a chill pill.

They're amazing.
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Postby DelPen on Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:13 pm

Would we have beat Ottawa, Rags and Flyers with EC and Army on Sid's wings instead of Hossa and Dupuis? Absolutely. I still contend that the team right now with Satan and Fedotenko AND a 100% Crosby will be better than the one that ended game 6 vs the Wings.
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Re: losses vs gains

Postby beerman on Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:21 pm

IrishEyes wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
Max Power wrote:Who's to even say that Malone would duplicate that season if he were here?


I'm so tired of this hypocritical rationality!! "Who's to say Fed Ex will have another 20 point season, who is to say Satan wont improve upon his 7 hits last season under Iron Mike T, who is to say that a 5'4" 26 year old rookie from a virtual no-contact league can't dig out thos pucks in the corner just like Malone!"

Just shut up! All of you! You suck at stating anything even closely resembling a fact based opinion!


I bought you something...

It's called a chill pill.

They're amazing.


you should just nom nom nom him
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Postby PenguinHockeyFanatic on Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:27 pm

DelPen wrote: the team right now with Satan and Fedotenko AND a 100% Crosby will be better than the one that ended game 6 vs the Wings.


That's EX-ACT-LY like saying that: Satan, Fedotenko, Pesonan, Sabourin, Cooke, Godard, Eaton, and Taffe are BETTER than Conklin, Hossa, Malone, Ruutu, Roberts, Hall, Laraque, and Sydor.


Let's break it down:

Satan vs. Hossa = Hossa. If Hossa has a bad season and Satan has a career season, Hossa would still be better.

"Fed Ex" vs. Malone = Malone. If Fedotenko finishes the season with 10 more points than Malone, Malone would still be a more valuable player based on intangebles alone.

Pesonan vs. Roberts = Roberts. Pesonan wont be good enough to crack a scoring line or even the 3rd line, and Roberts is a FAR superior 4th liner.

Sabourin vs. Conklin = Conklin. The leagues leader in save percentage is much better.

Cooke vs. Ruutu = Cooke. It's very, very close. Practically a wash.

Godard vs. Larauqe = Laraque. Better fighter, better player.

Taffe vs. Hall = Hall. Better 4th line center.

Eaton vs. Sydor = Eaton. Here Eaton is the clear favorite.

Crosby was 100% in game 6.
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Postby Henry Hank on Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:36 pm

Crosby being at 100% is the most important statement he made and you glossed over it. Crosby was not 100% in game six. Crosby was not 100% at any point last season after he injured his ankle.

It doesn't matter what the team looks like on paper now. The only meaningful time to judge them is in the playoffs next year. By then, we'll see what kind of years certain players will have had and we'll see what moves, if any, have been made.
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Postby PenguinHockeyFanatic on Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:37 pm

Henry Hank wrote:Crosby being at 100% is the most important statement he made and you glossed over it. Crosby was not 100% in game six. Crosby was not 100% at any point last season after he injured his ankle.

It doesn't matter what the team looks like on paper now. The only meaningful time to judge them is in the playoffs next year. By then, we'll see what kind of years certain players will have had and we'll see what moves, if any, have been made.


OMG his ankle made him 95% OMG OMGOMGZZ HE HURT HIS ANKLE HE WONT GET HURT NEXT SEASON CAUSE HE WILL BE 100% ALL NEXT SEASON OMGZZ!!

Yeah that's fine, but the homer de' jour is "losses vs. gains. It's not about waitint for the season to end and then discussing what happened.
Last edited by PenguinHockeyFanatic on Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: losses vs gains

Postby Samsdog on Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:38 pm

PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
Max Power wrote:Who's to even say that Malone would duplicate that season if he were here?


I'm so tired of this hypocritical rationality!! "Who's to say Fed Ex will have another 20 point season, who is to say Satan wont improve upon his 7 hits last season under Iron Mike T, who is to say that a 5'4" 26 year old rookie from a virtual no-contact league can't dig out thos pucks in the corner just like Malone!"

Just shut up! All of you! You suck at stating anything even closely resembling a fact based opinion!


You argue that no one here can come up with a fact based opinion, but completely ignore that Iron Mike was the coach of the Flames, Ted Nolan was the coach of the Isles. No one expects Pesonen to be a puck-dishing PFW, they're looking for a speedy finisher/occasional set-up man. If you're going to insult people's perceptions of new players and their ability to use rational arguments, then you should probably set the example, use facts, and do a little proofreading.
Last edited by Samsdog on Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:38 pm

not to mention 100% crosby at 21 should be greater than at 20, just like malkin at 22 v 21. They are at the age where they should be meking significant strides every year.
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Postby PenguinHockeyFanatic on Wed Sep 03, 2008 8:40 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:not to mention 100% crosby at 21 should be greater than at 20, just like malkin at 22 v 21. They are at the age where they should be meking significant strides every year.


Oh for sure. Crosby at 21 with "Fed Ex" and Satan should be good for a .6 point per game pace over Hossa and Dupuis. The beard alone should score 10 goals.
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Postby purelebo84 on Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:28 pm

If you look at the beginning of last year and now, the Pens are a much better team than they were. You never know what plays out at the deadline and whatnot, but I think we look solid.
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Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Sep 03, 2008 10:30 pm

Yep, the names on paper look better than last year, and more people are still getting better in their careers rather than going over the hill.
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Postby beerman on Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:36 pm

PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
Henry Hank wrote:Crosby being at 100% is the most important statement he made and you glossed over it. Crosby was not 100% in game six. Crosby was not 100% at any point last season after he injured his ankle.

It doesn't matter what the team looks like on paper now. The only meaningful time to judge them is in the playoffs next year. By then, we'll see what kind of years certain players will have had and we'll see what moves, if any, have been made.


OMG his ankle made him 95% OMG OMGOMGZZ HE HURT HIS ANKLE HE WONT GET HURT NEXT SEASON CAUSE HE WILL BE 100% ALL NEXT SEASON OMGZZ!!

Yeah that's fine, but the homer de' jour is "losses vs. gains. It's not about waitint for the season to end and then discussing what happened.


this is exactly why we need an ignore function
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Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:42 pm

beerman wrote:this is exactly why we need an ignore function


I can really only think of one user I would ignore, but it would definitely be key.
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Postby bhaw on Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:12 am

PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
DelPen wrote: the team right now with Satan and Fedotenko AND a 100% Crosby will be better than the one that ended game 6 vs the Wings.


That's EX-ACT-LY like saying that: Satan, Fedotenko, Pesonan, Sabourin, Cooke, Godard, Eaton, and Taffe are BETTER than Conklin, Hossa, Malone, Ruutu, Roberts, Hall, Laraque, and Sydor.


Let's break it down:

Satan vs. Hossa = Hossa. If Hossa has a bad season and Satan has a career season, Hossa would still be better.

"Fed Ex" vs. Malone = Malone. If Fedotenko finishes the season with 10 more points than Malone, Malone would still be a more valuable player based on intangebles alone.

Pesonan vs. Roberts = Roberts. Pesonan wont be good enough to crack a scoring line or even the 3rd line, and Roberts is a FAR superior 4th liner.

Sabourin vs. Conklin = Conklin. The leagues leader in save percentage is much better.

Cooke vs. Ruutu = Cooke. It's very, very close. Practically a wash.

Godard vs. Larauqe = Laraque. Better fighter, better player.

Taffe vs. Hall = Hall. Better 4th line center.

Eaton vs. Sydor = Eaton. Here Eaton is the clear favorite.

Crosby was 100% in game 6.


Conversely...

Satan vs Malone... edge to Satan for the points he will put up.
Fedotenko vs Roberts... since Roberts played like 18 minutes all of last year, I'll give it to Tank.
Cooke vs Ruutu... you give the edge to Cooke
Godard vs Laraque... Laraque, I agree, but a minimal role
Taffe vs Hall... Who cares? Hall didn't do anything until the playoffs anyways. He didn't even play in a lot of games including most of the playoffs until the last 2 rounds. Really... even if Hall is better, this will have almost 0 impact.
Eaton vs Sydor... You gave the edge to Eaton.

Left out:

Hossa - Did not even participate on the team until the end of the season after the regular season standings were pretty much wrapped up. Huge loss come playoffs, but who knows what this team will look like next spring. Comparing a season ending roster to an opening day roster is useless.

Pesonen - Can't be included because a) he may not make the team and b) all anyone knows about him comes from youtube, so there is no real info on the guy and how he will do. For all we know, he could be as good as Hossa or totally flop and not touch NHL ice.

I'm not even including any player development that you seem to think is meaningless.
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Postby ivand87 on Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:51 am

bhaw wrote:Conversely...

Satan vs Malone... edge to Satan for the points he will put up.
Fedotenko vs Roberts... since Roberts played like 18 minutes all of last year, I'll give it to Tank.
Cooke vs Ruutu... you give the edge to Cooke
Godard vs Laraque... Laraque, I agree, but a minimal role
Taffe vs Hall... Who cares? Hall didn't do anything until the playoffs anyways. He didn't even play in a lot of games including most of the playoffs until the last 2 rounds. Really... even if Hall is better, this will have almost 0 impact.
Eaton vs Sydor... You gave the edge to Eaton.

Left out:

Hossa - Did not even participate on the team until the end of the season after the regular season standings were pretty much wrapped up. Huge loss come playoffs, but who knows what this team will look like next spring. Comparing a season ending roster to an opening day roster is useless.

Pesonen - Can't be included because a) he may not make the team and b) all anyone knows about him comes from youtube, so there is no real info on the guy and how he will do. For all we know, he could be as good as Hossa or totally flop and not touch NHL ice.

I'm not even including any player development that you seem to think is meaningless.


Agree on pretty much everything, but I would like to remind you that Pesonen was the leading scorer in the Finnish hockey league, and Finland is no Switzerland or Italy when it comes to hockey. That's gotta count for something. Plus how many players have their own cult song? ;)
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Postby eberhard on Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:27 am

PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:Let's break it down:
(snip)


You neglect the most significant year-over-year factor of all, by far. Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, Staal, Letang, and Whitney will return another season closer to their enormous potential. It is beyond insignificant to worry about "issues" like Pesonen's potential corner work after watching these youngsters progress from a first-round out vs. Ottawa in 05/06 to butchering the East like a pig in 06/07.

Since moving to LA, I've had the chance to run with a group of guys who work in the front office of the Kings. When the subject of the Pens come up over beers, these NHL pols don't bother handicapping side issues like these. Instead, they express their awe (not to mention jealousy) over our young core.

I expect the gains to be enjoyed from an older, more experienced core will easily compensate for any losses incurred from secondary personnel changes made in the off-season, including the downgrade of Hossa to Satan.
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Postby PenguinHockeyFanatic on Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:09 am

bhaw wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:
DelPen wrote: the team right now with Satan and Fedotenko AND a 100% Crosby will be better than the one that ended game 6 vs the Wings.


That's EX-ACT-LY like saying that: Satan, Fedotenko, Pesonan, Sabourin, Cooke, Godard, Eaton, and Taffe are BETTER than Conklin, Hossa, Malone, Ruutu, Roberts, Hall, Laraque, and Sydor.


Let's break it down:

Satan vs. Hossa = Hossa. If Hossa has a bad season and Satan has a career season, Hossa would still be better.

"Fed Ex" vs. Malone = Malone. If Fedotenko finishes the season with 10 more points than Malone, Malone would still be a more valuable player based on intangebles alone.

Pesonan vs. Roberts = Roberts. Pesonan wont be good enough to crack a scoring line or even the 3rd line, and Roberts is a FAR superior 4th liner.

Sabourin vs. Conklin = Conklin. The leagues leader in save percentage is much better.

Cooke vs. Ruutu = Cooke. It's very, very close. Practically a wash.

Godard vs. Larauqe = Laraque. Better fighter, better player.

Taffe vs. Hall = Hall. Better 4th line center.

Eaton vs. Sydor = Eaton. Here Eaton is the clear favorite.

Crosby was 100% in game 6.


Conversely...

Satan vs Malone... edge to Satan for the points he will put up.
Fedotenko vs Roberts... since Roberts played like 18 minutes all of last year, I'll give it to Tank.
Cooke vs Ruutu... you give the edge to Cooke
Godard vs Laraque... Laraque, I agree, but a minimal role
Taffe vs Hall... Who cares? Hall didn't do anything until the playoffs anyways. He didn't even play in a lot of games including most of the playoffs until the last 2 rounds. Really... even if Hall is better, this will have almost 0 impact.
Eaton vs Sydor... You gave the edge to Eaton.

Left out:

Hossa - Did not even participate on the team until the end of the season after the regular season standings were pretty much wrapped up. Huge loss come playoffs, but who knows what this team will look like next spring. Comparing a season ending roster to an opening day roster is useless.

Pesonen - Can't be included because a) he may not make the team and b) all anyone knows about him comes from youtube, so there is no real info on the guy and how he will do. For all we know, he could be as good as Hossa or totally flop and not touch NHL ice.

I'm not even including any player development that you seem to think is meaningless.



lmao talk about black and gold Kool Aid
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Postby PenguinHockeyFanatic on Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:11 am

eberhard wrote:
PenguinHockeyFanatic wrote:Let's break it down:
(snip)


You neglect the most significant year-over-year factor of all, by far. Crosby, Malkin, Fleury, Staal, Letang, and Whitney will return another season closer to their enormous potential. It is beyond insignificant to worry about "issues" like Pesonen's potential corner work after watching these youngsters progress from a first-round out vs. Ottawa in 05/06 to butchering the East like a pig in 06/07.

Since moving to LA, I've had the chance to run with a group of guys who work in the front office of the Kings. When the subject of the Pens come up over beers, these NHL pols don't bother handicapping side issues like these. Instead, they express their awe (not to mention jealousy) over our young core.

I expect the gains to be enjoyed from an older, more experienced core will easily compensate for any losses incurred from secondary personnel changes made in the off-season, including the downgrade of Hossa to Satan.


yeah, they will suddenly all be twice as good because they aged a year. Good call. Did you suck half as bad at posting a year ago as you do now? If so, Kudos!
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Postby ffemtreed on Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:07 am

Cheap Seats wrote:
ffemtreed wrote:Malone can easily be replaced be anyone who is willing to work hard and play in the corners and front of the net.


There's a reason Malone was highly saugth after from Tampa Bay. A player of his breed does not grow on trees, as last season Malone emerged as one of the premiere power forwards in the NHL. To say he can be easily replaced is being far too much of a homer.

Mark my words, Malone's loss will be greater than any other loss the Penguins had this past off-season.


You might be right he will be the biggest lose if you don't count hossa.

I am going to argue that Malone was a product of the team and not visa versa. Malone was extremely inconsistent all year, esp in the beginning of the year, you never knew which malone was going to show up. There where a lot of games where he was completly invisable on the ice.

Now, for my next arugument, if I give in and say what Malone is 100 times better than his replacement, lets use FedEx, it doesn't really matter. All that matters is that the replacement be good in the corners, chips in goals in front of the net and has somewhat of a physical presence on the ice. That is what the Malkin/Sykora line needs. I think in this role FedEx will be as productive or even more productive than Malone was.

If Malone keeps up his warrior attitude and brings it night after night, then yes he will be a huge loss for us, but the only time we saw that passion from him was in the playoffs. Sure he had a couple fights and such during the season. but once again you never knew what you where getting each night.

And saying a player is great just because one team actively pursues him is a ridiculous thought. The bolts where desperate and he was available, that is why that went down.
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Re: losses vs gains

Postby PensFanInDC on Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:50 am

Max Power wrote:It's a long long season and I expect a slight let down as we ease into it and then they should get their balance and will take off. At least I hope so.....


No reason to hope because that's exactly what is going to happen. Even losing the finals breeds a sort of SC hang over, especially when your team is dismanteled (on paper.....and I have no idea if I spelled dis-mant-eled correctly...). I expect a lousy October (no thanks to starting the season in Europe, see Anaheim last year), a better November and December, and then, as it was 2 years ago, we will come out of the All-Star break in full sprint and wont look back.
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