Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

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Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby Lesky on Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:27 am

I know I´m going to get flamed pretty hard for this, but anyway:

What is the greatness with Jordan Staal?

Why is everybody worrying about paying him 5 million USD per year? Why should he receive 4-5 Million USD per year?

As for myself I see the following from Jordan Staal:

1. Decent agility and speed, nothing special. Slow starter.

2. Pretty poor shot.

3. Not overly physical or strong.

4. Decent vision and puck handling skill.

5. OK Penalty Killer

Projection: Third line center 20-45 points per year player.

Summary: Staal should not command a salary for more than 2.5-3 Million per year.

I apologize for offending people by writing this, and I am willing to take the heat for my stupidity.

Perhaps you guys could convince me of Staals greatness? :D
Last edited by Lesky on Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby newarenanow on Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:35 am

He'll get it from someone. I personally think he is a good player, worth the 3 -4 Mill range.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby KG on Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:35 am

I posted similar thoughts about Staal in another thread, I'll repeat myself...

I tend to agree that he has been underwhelming, especially offensively, which is what a 2nd overall pick who is a forward is supposed to be. ...However, he is a very good penalty killer, defensive player and will get better offensively obviously...

That being said. The window to keep these players together isn't very long. The pens did a great job locking up Crosby/Malkin/Fleury. Shero has to make the decision if he thinks that Staal is worth a long term multi-million dollar commitment at this stage in his career, because he will get it from someone else...

I look at it this way. The pens need a goal scoring winger (or 2) in their system....The team needs Staal to develop into that. This year is huge for him. If Staal does not have a bounce back year (25+ goals, physical play) I would look into seeing what they could get for him...

This is year 3 for Staal...Staal is the one real chip that they have that they could get a real package for, conceivably.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby KennyTheKangaroo on Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:36 am

For some reason you left off the fact that he is one of the top penalty killers on the team and one of the more responsible defenders on the team.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby KG on Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:39 am

I try to look at his objectively. But I don't see how anyone can't say that they have not been disappointing by Staal...A good penalty killer you can get in the draft in the 7th round....2nd overall picks are franchise players...I understand that I just over-simplified it, and he will get better...But you have to worry a little bit about his offensive game...
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby Nizzy on Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:39 am

Lesky,

I'm not going to flame you at all.

Jordan's Size and skill/talent is rare. Staal put up 29 goals as an 18 year old. He just turned 20 years old. His shot will get much better, he will produce much better this year on Malkin's wing. Jordan is already a premier two way forward. His defense is beyond his years. He isn't overly strong because he just turned 20. His Vision might be lacking but his puck handling is better then people think and will only get better.

He isn't a 3rd line center anymore (at least for now) I think he will reach 30 goals this year. Staal could get 5 Million per year because Philly's 3rd line center in Jeff Carter got 5 Million per year and he scored the same amount of goals Jordan did 2 years ago with 29.

Lastly and the final statement. Go look at Vincent Lecavalier's point production at age 18, 19, 20. If Staal ever gets traded there is no doubt that he could be a number 1 center.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby AlexPKeaton on Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:40 am

In before "trade Malkin to LA and move Staal to #2 center."
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby pensfan20 on Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:41 am

This is the make or break year for Staal. If he can become the scoring winger that we need, and that he has shown in his first year that he can be, then we will lock him up for 4 or 5 years worth about 3.5-4.5 mil a year. He will be capable of playing wing, center, PK and PP. But if he doesnt break out as that scoring winger or power forward we need. Then i do believe either trading him for what we need, or signing him to a 3rd center position would be fine. But as a 3rd line center you cant pay more than 2 or so a year. imo.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby Nizzy on Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:51 am

pensfan20 wrote:This is the make or break year for Staal. If he can become the scoring winger that we need, and that he has shown in his first year that he can be, then we will lock him up for 4 or 5 years worth about 3.5-4.5 mil a year. He will be capable of playing wing, center, PK and PP. But if he doesnt break out as that scoring winger or power forward we need. Then i do believe either trading him for what we need, or signing him to a 3rd center position would be fine. But as a 3rd line center you cant pay more than 2 or so a year. imo.


Jordan is 20 guys not everyone we draft is going to put up 102, 85 points in their rookie seasons. Heck Staal might take 6-7 years to put up 85 points. I'd gladly wait 6-7 years for him to FULLY develop if that means getting a Lecavalier-type talented player. Shero is NEVER trading Jordan. That was his first overall pick as GM. Shero saw in Jordan was that no matter what happened with this franchise he picked him believing that he could build a franchise around Jordan if needed. Jordan has only missed 1 NHL game and that was a healthy scratch in his rookie season. Jordan has rare talent for his skill and seems to not be injury prone.

Why on earth would we give up on him because he doesn't score 25 goals? Am I missing something here?
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby newarenanow on Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:55 am

Nizzy wrote:Why on earth would we give up on him because he doesn't score 25 goals? Am I missing something here?


People are used to having Lemieux, Crosby, Malkin type players on this team.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby pensfan20 on Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:01 am

newarenanow wrote:
Nizzy wrote:Why on earth would we give up on him because he doesn't score 25 goals? Am I missing something here?


People are used to having Lemieux, Crosby, Malkin type players on this team.


If it takes himn 6-7 years to develop, where will Crosby or Malkin be then? With the salary cap one must win now with the team we have. We cant afford to have 3 centers making the money Sid, Geno and Staal make. He will be a RFA at the end of this season and you can bet someone will throw an offer sheet at him even if he doesnt get 25 or so goals. We cant afford him. Thats the reality of having Sid, Geno, MAF, Oripik, Whit and Gonch locked up in big contracts. Next summer we will loose Satan, Fedo, Gill, Sykora, Sydor and im sure a couple more. You cant throw big money to Staal if he hasnt proven himself yet. If you do you are just harming the team. nothing against Staal.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby KG on Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:07 am

Nizzy wrote:
pensfan20 wrote:This is the make or break year for Staal. If he can become the scoring winger that we need, and that he has shown in his first year that he can be, then we will lock him up for 4 or 5 years worth about 3.5-4.5 mil a year. He will be capable of playing wing, center, PK and PP. But if he doesnt break out as that scoring winger or power forward we need. Then i do believe either trading him for what we need, or signing him to a 3rd center position would be fine. But as a 3rd line center you cant pay more than 2 or so a year. imo.


Jordan is 20 guys not everyone we draft is going to put up 102, 85 points in their rookie seasons. Heck Staal might take 6-7 years to put up 85 points. I'd gladly wait 6-7 years for him to FULLY develop if that means getting a Lecavalier-type talented player. Shero is NEVER trading Jordan. That was his first overall pick as GM. Shero saw in Jordan was that no matter what happened with this franchise he picked him believing that he could build a franchise around Jordan if needed. Jordan has only missed 1 NHL game and that was a healthy scratch in his rookie season. Jordan has rare talent for his skill and seems to not be injury prone.

Why on earth would we give up on him because he doesn't score 25 goals? Am I missing something here?


If Shero doesn't sign Staal before the end of this season, then he better think about what his trade market value is...Because a team will give Staal an offer sheet in 5 seconds...

I disagree. Staal is not an elite talent...You do not make non-elite talents untouchable...
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby shmenguin on Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:10 am

Nizzy wrote:I'd gladly wait 6-7 years for him to FULLY develop if that means getting a Lecavalier-type talented player.


staal will be nothing like lecavalier. i agree that this year isn't the final straw, but comparing him to a guy like vinny doesn't make sense.

what's weird is that staal had a good couple of games this weekend. he works well with malkin and he showed some good stuff coming through the neutral zone. but he's big and he didn't level anyone, so i guess he's now on the block?
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby newarenanow on Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:16 am

pensfan20 wrote:
newarenanow wrote:
Nizzy wrote:Why on earth would we give up on him because he doesn't score 25 goals? Am I missing something here?


People are used to having Lemieux, Crosby, Malkin type players on this team.


If it takes himn 6-7 years to develop, where will Crosby or Malkin be then? With the salary cap one must win now with the team we have. We cant afford to have 3 centers making the money Sid, Geno and Staal make. He will be a RFA at the end of this season and you can bet someone will throw an offer sheet at him even if he doesnt get 25 or so goals. We cant afford him. Thats the reality of having Sid, Geno, MAF, Oripik, Whit and Gonch locked up in big contracts. Next summer we will loose Satan, Fedo, Gill, Sykora, Sydor and im sure a couple more. You cant throw big money to Staal if he hasnt proven himself yet. If you do you are just harming the team. nothing against Staal.


I agree with your point regarding the salary cap. And IF a team throws ridiculous money at him, then I agree, let him go.

But, after having Lemieux, Crosby, and Malkin on this team, and them coming out on fire, some people set too high of expectations for not only Staal, but many of our higher draft picks. A lot of people expect players to come out like them. We've been spoiled.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby Samsdog on Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:26 am

The idea of saying that a 20 year old third year center has been underwhelming is kind of dicey. Now, I get where you're coming from, and I agree 100% that at this stage in his development/career Staal needs to realize he's not Sidney Crosby and keep his salary demands consistent with his level of play, but at the same time this kid is already one of the premiere defensive forwards in the game and could well put up a decent amount of points on Malkin's wing. I wouldn't feel comfortable saying that he'd failed or was a bust before he's even close to his prime, and I think that given the number of sophomore slumps this league sees I would like to see another season or two or five before I judge. But as you said, 5 million is kind of out of hand at this point, if he wants that kind of money then he can sign a shorter term deal and wait until he's ready for it. Back before Kevin Lowe most players didn't make the big money until their third contract anyway, so a 2 year, 3.5 million dollar deal would be good for Staal because it's short enough term that he can renegotiate and get more money when he's matured a little and his goal scoring/ powerforward tendencies catch up to his defensive play. If he won't be reasonable about it then yeah, you always have to explore potential return, but I wouldn't pull the trigger on a trade if a reasonable deal could get done and we could actually see what he will be capable of as he develops.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby the errey i breathe on Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:29 am

If a team did give him an offer-sheet and he accepted wouldn't we get their first pick for a while?
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby Henry Hank on Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:31 am

We'll revisit this thread later in the year... I expect it to be like those Malkin threads people used to make...
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby ams on Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:33 am

I wouldn't feel comfortable saying that he'd failed or was a bust before he's even close to his prime, and I think that given the number of sophomore slumps this league sees I would like to see another season or two or five before I judge.


I think this is the approach to take. Giving up on Staal now is way too soon, so unless his salary demands are insane, I don't think trading him now is the thing to do.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby Nizzy on Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:37 am

shmenguin wrote:
Nizzy wrote:I'd gladly wait 6-7 years for him to FULLY develop if that means getting a Lecavalier-type talented player.


staal will be nothing like lecavalier. i agree that this year isn't the final straw, but comparing him to a guy like vinny doesn't make sense.

what's weird is that staal had a good couple of games this weekend. he works well with malkin and he showed some good stuff coming through the neutral zone. but he's big and he didn't level anyone, so i guess he's now on the block?



I disagree. Staal is has the same frame just like him. Like Staal, Lecavalier didn't put up amazing (decent but not amazing) numbers at these ages 18-20. I believe Vinny finally mature into that big body and once staal does the same and uses it to his advantages he will be close to just as good.

I highly doubt we will keep Crosby/Malkin/Staal for their whole careers. Its near impossible in todays NHL. However to say we are dumping Staal after this year is ridiculous.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby newarenanow on Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:38 am

ams wrote:
I wouldn't feel comfortable saying that he'd failed or was a bust before he's even close to his prime, and I think that given the number of sophomore slumps this league sees I would like to see another season or two or five before I judge.


I think this is the approach to take. Giving up on Staal now is way too soon, so unless his salary demands are insane, I don't think trading him now is the thing to do.


I agree. You definitely don't trade him this season. Just take the picks if his salary is ridiculous.

But, I have a feeling Staal will be a Pen for the next 3-4 years. And he will be one heck of a player.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby Scott on Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:39 am

newarenanow wrote:
Nizzy wrote:Why on earth would we give up on him because he doesn't score 25 goals? Am I missing something here?


People are used to having Lemieux, Crosby, Malkin type players on this team.


Don't forget to add Jagr and Francis to that as well.

Pens fans are spoiled when it comes to premier offensive players.

I feel if JS is used right, he could score 40 goals in a season. I'm not predicting that this season that will happen but it might. It might in the near future as well.

When I say used right, the main thing I'm talking about is in front of the net on the PP. With the reach he has ...(and it is oddly long even for his size, might be longer than Hal Gill) he is a perfect match for net area on the PP. He could really set an office up there this year. Hopefully they let that develop and get some shots on net so he can bury rebounds.

You don't put a 7'0 basketball player with a huge wing span at guard.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby newarenanow on Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:39 am

Henry Hank wrote:We'll revisit this thread later in the year... I expect it to be like those Malkin threads people used to make...


I think there was one person in particular who made those Malkin threads. :D

He is no longer with us.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby newarenanow on Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:43 am

Scott wrote:
Don't forget to add Jagr and Francis to that as well.


I would put those two in there, but I was talking about our top draft picks that were putting up 90 to 100 pts right away.

Jagr didn't really "break out" in scoring HUGE numbers until his third season. A lot of people forget that. He had like 57 and 69 pts his first two years. Thank god we didn't give up on him.

Since we didn't draft Francis, and he was a veteran, I didn't include him.

But you are correct. The Pens have been very, very fortunate to have some of the greatest players to have ever played the game on this team, and I think that spoils a lot of people.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby PensBeerGeek on Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:48 am

I've said this before, but it bears repeating here. Jordan Staal gets the money because Jordan Staal performs when it matters....in the playoffs.

Honestly, I'm not all that impressed with players who put up big regular season numbers and then fold when it matters, yet those seem to be the only numbers ever thrown around when it comes to contracts. I don't think there's anyone who would say that Jordan Staal hasn't performed when it counts.

The Pens are asking a lot of him: to be ready to step in as a 3rd line center, 2nd line winger, and even occasionally a bump up to that 2nd line center role when Crosby and Malkin go onto the ice together. He's the best penalty killer on the team, and is slowly growing into that big body in front of the crease on the power play (a role that certainly takes time...Gary Roberts didn't come out at 18 able to do that so well). Considering that he's not even old enough to buy a drink, I'd say that the sky is the limit for him, and potential like that costs money.

I'd value him at around $4.25 a year. Jeff Carter got $5 per over 3 years, and is there anyone who'd rather have Jeff Carter than Jordan Staal?
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby Va Beach Pens Fan on Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:49 am

This season will be the true test....

He's on one of the most potent lines in the NHL, if he's gonna bump up his numbers, it better be this year....

Unless HCMT moves him off the #2 line, the excuse that he was stuck on a checking line will no longer be applicable....
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