Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby shmenguin on Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:54 am

Nizzy wrote:
shmenguin wrote:
Nizzy wrote:I'd gladly wait 6-7 years for him to FULLY develop if that means getting a Lecavalier-type talented player.


staal will be nothing like lecavalier. i agree that this year isn't the final straw, but comparing him to a guy like vinny doesn't make sense.

what's weird is that staal had a good couple of games this weekend. he works well with malkin and he showed some good stuff coming through the neutral zone. but he's big and he didn't level anyone, so i guess he's now on the block?



I disagree. Staal is has the same frame just like him. Like Staal, Lecavalier didn't put up amazing (decent but not amazing) numbers at these ages 18-20. I believe Vinny finally mature into that big body and once staal does the same and uses it to his advantages he will be close to just as good.

I highly doubt we will keep Crosby/Malkin/Staal for their whole careers. Its near impossible in todays NHL. However to say we are dumping Staal after this year is ridiculous.


lecavalier is quick, flashy and has a wicked shot. he showed all of that early on, he just didn't know how to use these tools. staal doesn't fit into this mold. bertuzzi in his prime would be more what we can hope for (without the propensity for assault).
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby Henry Hank on Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:55 am

To actually contribute to the thread this time:

1) he's big

2) he's skilled

3) he's got hockey smarts beyond his years

4) he's good defensively at a young age

5) he's stepped it up in the playoffs

6) he just turned 20 and he already has a 29 goal season in the NHL

I don't think it should be a surprise why people are high on him. He has boat loads of potential. He hasn't put it all together but it's unreasonable to think that he should have because 99% of players don't follow the Crosby/Malkin curve. When people talk about him getting $4-5 million on his next contract, they're talking about that with the idea that he's going to keep improving. Nobody wants to pay him that much to be a third line center who scores 12 goals. I expect a big year from him. He's playing top six ES and top units on the PP and PK. He's likely in for a big year.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby KG on Tue Oct 07, 2008 11:28 am

PensBeerGeek wrote:I've said this before, but it bears repeating here. Jordan Staal gets the money because Jordan Staal performs when it matters....in the playoffs.

Honestly, I'm not all that impressed with players who put up big regular season numbers and then fold when it matters, yet those seem to be the only numbers ever thrown around when it comes to contracts. I don't think there's anyone who would say that Jordan Staal hasn't performed when it counts.

The Pens are asking a lot of him: to be ready to step in as a 3rd line center, 2nd line winger, and even occasionally a bump up to that 2nd line center role when Crosby and Malkin go onto the ice together. He's the best penalty killer on the team, and is slowly growing into that big body in front of the crease on the power play (a role that certainly takes time...Gary Roberts didn't come out at 18 able to do that so well). Considering that he's not even old enough to buy a drink, I'd say that the sky is the limit for him, and potential like that costs money.

I'd value him at around $4.25 a year. Jeff Carter got $5 per over 3 years, and is there anyone who'd rather have Jeff Carter than Jordan Staal?


Not to be a stickler. But the playoff stats is a little overrated as well...25 playoff games 9-1-10 ...Again, I am not bashing Staal, but he has a lot to prove still...
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby ron_duguays_hair on Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:09 pm

I didn't see this thread before I posted mine but I'd like to see Staal play with more of any edge.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby Henry Hank on Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:20 pm

Not to be a stickler. But the playoff stats is a little overrated as well...25 playoff games 9-1-10 ...Again, I am not bashing Staal, but he has a lot to prove still...


That's a 30 goal pace. The point is he steps it up in the playoffs, which is impressive for an 18 and 19 year old.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby Jim on Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:56 pm

Nizzy wrote:Why on earth would we give up on him because he doesn't score 25 goals? Am I missing something here?


Yes. You are confusing "giving up on him" and "not giving him twice the $$$ he is worth"
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby Samsdog on Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:24 pm

If you want to give a kid like that a long term extension you're going to have to overpay him some. With the money he might deserve in a few years you're not going to be able to lock him up long term without losing the deal a bit for the first few years. I believe that a shorter term deal may be in the Penguins best interest as far as cap space for the next few years because he may not deserve a huge amount, but it also eliminates the possibility of spreading out the 5 million dollars he might command in 4 years over the next 6 or 7. In the end, I think Staal is going to want a 2-3 year deal so that he can jack up his salary when he develops more, and the Penguins are either going to have to overpay him by an obscene or at least painful amount to get a long term deal or accept the ramifications of saving some space short term and losing a little more in the long term.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby Kaizer on Tue Oct 07, 2008 1:33 pm

Any long term deal for what he's worth now will be a bargain in the future.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:08 pm

we can make him better, bigger, stronger, faster
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby newarenanow on Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:16 pm

ZenPenguin wrote:
Forgot some things...
- He's got a LONG reach
- He's big
- he's going to get bigger, faster, strong, and better each year


That's what she said.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby Kovy27 on Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:17 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:we can make him better, bigger, stronger, faster


Gary Roberts?
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:21 pm

Hopefully thats the result.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby chaos5190 on Tue Oct 07, 2008 3:41 pm

I remember in Malkin and Staals rookie season, a lot of people on this board said they would rather keep Staal over Malkin. Does anyone still feel that way?

My opinion then and still is It's a no brainer. Gotta keep Geno!
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby Seattle-Pens-fan on Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:03 pm

Anyone remember Bob Gainey, in his prime? There wasn't a team in the league that wouldn't have been happy to have him in their lineup. I think we have the same kind of character, abilities, and potential with JS. Along with a better offensive upside, of course.

The real issue we'll face is this: Do we want to overpay for that potential? I think we'll have to do so to keep him on the team. Otoh, if we don't pony up, someone else will. My bet is that 6-7 years down the road, JS is a perennial Selke Trophy winner, and is popping in 30-40 goals a year. What's a player like that worth to a franchise? Particularly one that (hopefully) still has Crosby and Malkin. I don't see how the Penguins could afford him at that point. But it sucks to sign him for 5 years, just to develop that potential for which we'll be unable to benefit.

My conclusion? Sign him now, but know that he'll be gone at some point, relatively soon.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby CKA24 on Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:21 pm

Lesky wrote:I know I´m going to get flamed pretty hard for this, but anyway:

What is the greatness with Jordan Staal?

Why is everybody worrying about paying him 5 million USD per year? Why should he receive 4-5 Million USD per year?

As for myself I see the following from Jordan Staal:

1. Decent agility and speed, nothing special. Slow starter.

Along with the rest of the team? I don't buy the slow starter thing -- he wouldn't be in his third year of service if he was a slow starter (reference the 9 game rule). AH! I know what happened -- you confused him with our weird first baseman, Adam LaRoche!

2. Pretty poor shot.

He had a 22.1% shooting percentage his rookie year! Yes -- last year it was 6.6%, but this kid is going to shoot somewhere in between...

3. Not overly physical or strong.

Plain and simple -- he needs to fill out more.

4. Decent vision and puck handling skill.

...which looks better and will continue to improve.

5. OK Penalty Killer

This is where you should be flamed. Staal has great defensive instincts, knows how to get in lanes, and he has a huge reach. Not to mention the shorties in his rookie year. None last year (I know), but he was pulled back a little by MT making sure he was 8000% defensively minded...

Projection: Third line center 20-45 points per year player.

Projection: Winger for Malkin, and (sadly) probably a No.2 star Shutdown center for another team...

Summary: Staal should not command a salary for more than 2.5-3 Million per year.

He'll eventully command around 6-8 mil in his prime. Now? Lock him up for 2-3 years at 1.5-2.5 per

I apologize for offending people by writing this, and I am willing to take the heat for my stupidity.

Perhaps you guys could convince me of Staals greatness? :D
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby WWGRD on Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:01 pm

Pterodactyl.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby Bob McKenzie on Tue Oct 07, 2008 11:26 pm

There is NO doubt that Staal is going to get $5 million on the open market. He's a 20 year old that plays the game with the maturity of a veteran. He is only going to get better. You don't give him enough credit for his play between the blue lines, reading plays both offensively and defensively, and his penalty killing.

If I were Shero, I'd try to lock Staal up in a Fleury type contract at 7 years, 35 million. In years 3-7, he's going to be a mega bargain.

Not many 20 year olds can center a 3rd line and be very good at it and be very adaptive to what the team asks him to do. He can develop into a power forward either at Left Wing or develop into a shutdown Center.

Staal is good now. He has the talent to be very good. He has leadership abilities as well. I think his upside is him being a cross between Rod Brind'Amour and Keith Primeau.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby shmenguin on Wed Oct 08, 2008 9:38 am

Bob McKenzie wrote:Not many 20 year olds can center a 3rd line and be very good at it and be very adaptive to what the team asks him to do. He can develop into a power forward either at Left Wing or develop into a shutdown Center.


i like staal, but he's never been a "very good" center, not even for the 3rd line. he's a poor passer and has never had any offensive productivity at that position, which (i'm sorry) is kinda important when talking about contracts. while it's clear that staal has the tools to be a great player (and will probably become just that), it's also becoming clear that his 29 goals and his short handed goals were more of an anomaly than an accurate measurement of immediate things to come. if Shero offered 5 million a year for someone with staal's current credentials, i would have serious concerns about his level of competency. no doubt, he could put up 35 and 35 this year and make himself worth that, but RIGHT NOW, any GM who would give him 5 mill/yr guaranteed is crazy.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby KG on Wed Oct 08, 2008 10:13 am

Patrick O'Sullivan just signed a 3 year contract with LA at $2.9MM cap hit annually...O'Sullivan is a much better offensive player then Staal. Staal is a much better defensive player....A modest bump for Staal...3 years $3.5MM per year is fair...
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby KG on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:45 am

FYI...Both Staal and Jack Johnson are both restricted free agents at season's end....I'm just saying = )
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby newarenanow on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:48 am

KG wrote:FYI...Both Staal and Jack Johnson are both restricted free agents at season's end....I'm just saying = )


Yeah, I just think people are speculating if some other GM will come in and offer the $5M+ everyone is talking about. If not, you are correct.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby Kicksave on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:51 am

Staal for Gaborik.

Do it.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby newarenanow on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:52 am

Kicksave wrote:Staal for Gaborik.

Do it.


NO.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby Kicksave on Wed Oct 08, 2008 11:55 am

newarenanow wrote:
Kicksave wrote:Staal for Gaborik.

Do it.


NO.


I'd rather pay Gaborik $7.5mil than pay Staal $5mil.
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Re: Whats The Greatness of highly touted Jordan Staal?

Postby newarenanow on Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:02 pm

Kicksave wrote:
newarenanow wrote:
Kicksave wrote:Staal for Gaborik.

Do it.


NO.


I'd rather pay Gaborik $7.5mil than pay Staal $5mil.


Can't afford either at that amount.
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