There is no shame in being a 3rd line shut down center.

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Re: There is no shame in being a 3rd line shut down center.

Postby Why So Serious? on Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:03 am

SMTM wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
Why So Serious? wrote:Yes and he played all of the season before that when he amassed 29 goals.


And he also played most of last season as a center, and looked good doing it.



Right. You and I finallu agree. He looked good doing it. A third line center. Hence the topic of this long, meandering, confrontational thread.


Yes, but he is a 2nd line center right now. And he has looked better, in my opinion, as a 2nd line C then a 2nd line LW.
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Re: There is no shame in being a 3rd line shut down center.

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:04 am

Yeah well thats a fine fallback spot, but if he can do what he has already shown he can do as a wing, its worth playing him there for a while, because he has the size and athleticism to be far more valuable as a top 6 player. He has shown that he can perform consistently in the playoffs, so its not something that disappeared after his rookie year, he just needs to get it going now.
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Re: There is no shame in being a 3rd line shut down center.

Postby Kharlamov on Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:06 am

if jordan staal wasn't so tall, lanky, and well...slow, I don't know if I would even notice the guy on the ice. we all hear from 'hockey experts' that he is the real deal...maybe I don't know enough about hockey to see how he is special but he seems more average than anytihng. its time to buck up... shake of the younger brother thing, the not as good as sid/geno thing and leave it all out there. he needs to think more like WWGRD.

its so obvious that it is a confidence thing with him too.. when he was a rookie he had nothing to lose and just played! now he thinks too much...he has no...marbles!
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Re: There is no shame in being a 3rd line shut down center.

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:08 am

tombarrassorules wrote:
Why So Serious? wrote:
tombarrassorules wrote:i dont buy this 7 games thing. didnt he play all of last season?


Yes and he played all of the season before that when he amassed 29 goals.



wow. if you went back and looked at some of the guys who had good seasons 2 seasons ago...im not even going to justify that.


Maybe you should get into it, because I bet that almost everyone that has gone downhill has been over the age of 32, not having a common developmental hiccup.
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Re: There is no shame in being a 3rd line shut down center.

Postby KG on Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:09 am

Not to bust chops. But everyone keeps acting like Staal was a Con Smyth finalist last year or something...Playoff stats:

25 games 9 goals 1 assit -5 42 shots....

Better, but far from a go to guy that many are proclaiming him to be...Plus, 1 assist says a lot to me. He does not generate offense and create chances...
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Re: There is no shame in being a 3rd line shut down center.

Postby wallflower on Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:09 am

Idoit40fans wrote:Yeah well thats a fine fallback spot, but if he can do what he has already shown he can do as a wing, its worth playing him there for a while, because he has the size and athleticism to be far more valuable as a top 6 player. He has shown that he can perform consistently in the playoffs, so its not something that disappeared after his rookie year, he just needs to get it going now.

When Therrien inevitably moves Malkin back to the second line, I would give Staal another chance there with Sykora. The three of them only played one game as a full line before things got switched up. In theory, I think they would make a pretty good line.

But I'm a blind Staal zombie, so whatever.
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Re: There is no shame in being a 3rd line shut down center.

Postby wallflower on Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:11 am

KG wrote:Not to bust chops. But everyone keeps acting like Staal was a Con Smyth finalist last year or something...Playoff stats:

25 games 9 goals 1 assit -5 42 shots....

Better, but far from a go to guy that man are proclaiming him to be...Plus, 1 assist says a lot to me. He does not generate offense and create chances...

Not everything is shown in stats. If you don't think Staal was good in the playoffs, I don't know what to say to you really.
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Re: There is no shame in being a 3rd line shut down center.

Postby Henry Hank on Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:11 am

You don't have to look far to see the last time Staal played great hockey. It was called the 2008 playoffs.

I'm amazed at Pens fans that don't learn from recent history. After being so wrong about both Malone and Orpik, I'm never going to start to doubt a player because he hasn't put it together as quickly as I would hope. These discussions are as frustrating as they were last year when the subject was Fleury and people were wondering why he hadn't put it together... despite still being the youngest goalie in the league.
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Re: There is no shame in being a 3rd line shut down center.

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:12 am

So you're saying he doesn't create but that he should center? Does not compute. If he is playing with Malkin and Sykora its a good complement because he doesn't need to create and can be the defensibly responsible wing. In fact, he could actually take the center assignment in the defensive end which would open things up for Malkin. They are gonna have to go back to Crosby and Malkin on separate lines, and should continue looking at Staal on wing because 5 games is not enough to make a decision based on. Especially after a great performance, regardless of stats, in last season's playoffs.
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Re: There is no shame in being a 3rd line shut down center.

Postby Why So Serious? on Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:17 am

tombarrassorules wrote:
Why So Serious? wrote:
tombarrassorules wrote:i dont buy this 7 games thing. didnt he play all of last season?


Yes and he played all of the season before that when he amassed 29 goals.



wow. if you went back and looked at some of the guys who had good seasons 2 seasons ago...im not even going to justify that.


You need to take a step back and realize that the kid is only 20 years old. You were bringing up what he di last season, so I was basically countering that by telling you what he did the year before that. Once again, he is 20 years old and nowhere near his prime. It's unreal how many people are already willing to write the kid off.
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Re: There is no shame in being a 3rd line shut down center.

Postby KG on Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:19 am

Guys, play Staal where ever you want...Bottom line is Max Talbot is a more dangerous offensive weapon then Staal at this point. And I think Talbot was a 9th round pick or something...

I am not trying to bash the guy. But I just can't see how anyone can feel any confidence with his offensive game...I guarantee you. You put Zigomanis on the 2nd line and he will out score Staal at this point...
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Re: There is no shame in being a 3rd line shut down center.

Postby Why So Serious? on Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:19 am

Idoit40fans wrote:So you're saying he doesn't create but that he should center? Does not compute. If he is playing with Malkin and Sykora its a good complement because he doesn't need to create and can be the defensibly responsible wing. In fact, he could actually take the center assignment in the defensive end which would open things up for Malkin. They are gonna have to go back to Crosby and Malkin on separate lines, and should continue looking at Staal on wing because 5 games is not enough to make a decision based on. Especially after a great performance, regardless of stats, in last season's playoffs.


This. Solid.
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Re: There is no shame in being a 3rd line shut down center.

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:19 am

tombarrassorules wrote:and i bet if i did go back i bet id find a few 20 year olds who increased scoring since that season. i dont want to bring up toews or anything you know.


There are as many guys that have great rookie year and take a temporary step back as there are that continue to improve. In fact they have a term for it. Sophomore slump, don't tell me you've never heard of it. Also, Toews had his first NHL season last year, what are you talking about?
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Re: There is no shame in being a 3rd line shut down center.

Postby KG on Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:22 am

Why So Serious? wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:So you're saying he doesn't create but that he should center? Does not compute. If he is playing with Malkin and Sykora its a good complement because he doesn't need to create and can be the defensibly responsible wing. In fact, he could actually take the center assignment in the defensive end which would open things up for Malkin. They are gonna have to go back to Crosby and Malkin on separate lines, and should continue looking at Staal on wing because 5 games is not enough to make a decision based on. Especially after a great performance, regardless of stats, in last season's playoffs.


This. Solid.


So this means going back to:

Satan/Crosby/Dupuis
Staal/Malkin/Sykora

It loks good on paper...but MT wasn't feeling it I guess...
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Re: There is no shame in being a 3rd line shut down center.

Postby Why So Serious? on Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:22 am

tombarrassorules wrote:


wow. if you went back and looked at some of the guys who had good seasons 2 seasons ago...im not even going to justify that.


Maybe you should get into it, because I bet that almost everyone that has gone downhill has been over the age of 32, not having a common developmental hiccup.


and i bet if i did go back i bet id find a few 20 year olds who increased scoring since that season. i dont want to bring up toews or anything you know.[/quote]

It's called a Sophomore Slump. It happens. And if you're going to write Staal off after his sophomore season and 7 games through this season, then I have no hope for you. I honestly don't know what to tell you except for the fact that that is not enough time for a 20 year old to develop into what everybody hopes he will be.
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Re: There is no shame in being a 3rd line shut down center.

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:23 am

KG wrote:
Why So Serious? wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:So you're saying he doesn't create but that he should center? Does not compute. If he is playing with Malkin and Sykora its a good complement because he doesn't need to create and can be the defensibly responsible wing. In fact, he could actually take the center assignment in the defensive end which would open things up for Malkin. They are gonna have to go back to Crosby and Malkin on separate lines, and should continue looking at Staal on wing because 5 games is not enough to make a decision based on. Especially after a great performance, regardless of stats, in last season's playoffs.


This. Solid.


So this means going back to:

Satan/Crosby/Dupuis
Staal/Malkin/Sykora

It loks good on paper...but MT wasn't feeling it I guess...


Yeah because he has never decided to put Malkin and Crosby together to jump-start the offense...
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Re: There is no shame in being a 3rd line shut down center.

Postby meecrofilm on Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:28 am

KG wrote:Guys, play Staal where ever you want...Bottom line is Max Talbot is a more dangerous offensive weapon then Staal at this point. And I think Talbot was a 9th round pick or something...

I am not trying to bash the guy. But I just can't see how anyone can feel any confidence with his offensive game...I guarantee you. You put Zigomanis on the 2nd line and he will out score Staal at this point...


Speaking of Talbot. He's gotten off to a slow, slow start this year as well.

Where are all the trade Talbot threads? He's been pretty much invisible since the start of the season.
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Re: There is no shame in being a 3rd line shut down center.

Postby KG on Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:29 am

See, I have no problem calling out a member of the pens when they are playing poorly. I am not a homer where I can't even criticize one of our own players..Staal is fair game for criticizim at this point. I am not saying he is a throw away player or anything. I am just saying his game has not stepped up and the team needs more from him this year offensively...

I get that he is 20, young, developing..I get that. I am not saying to trade him for a rental. All I am saying is that his offensive game is disgusting at this point. And the team needs more out of him to be more successful....
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Re: There is no shame in being a 3rd line shut down center.

Postby Why So Serious? on Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:29 am

KG wrote:
Why So Serious? wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:So you're saying he doesn't create but that he should center? Does not compute. If he is playing with Malkin and Sykora its a good complement because he doesn't need to create and can be the defensibly responsible wing. In fact, he could actually take the center assignment in the defensive end which would open things up for Malkin. They are gonna have to go back to Crosby and Malkin on separate lines, and should continue looking at Staal on wing because 5 games is not enough to make a decision based on. Especially after a great performance, regardless of stats, in last season's playoffs.


This. Solid.


So this means going back to:

Satan/Crosby/Dupuis
Staal/Malkin/Sykora

It loks good on paper...but MT wasn't feeling it I guess...


It would look pretty good on the ice as well if they are given enough time. Satan has 4 goals. Dupuis has looked terrific alongside Crosby. And we all know the chemistry between 71 and 17 from last season. Once again they just need some time together. As for Staal, him and Malkin looked mighty good together their rookie years. So, let's give it some time before we start judging every player on the team. Satan has been getting a lot of slack, he only leads the team in goals with 4. And I don't care how he's getting them, he's at the right spot at the right time and he's doing what he's supposed to be doing.
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Re: There is no shame in being a 3rd line shut down center.

Postby KG on Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:31 am

meecrofilm wrote:
KG wrote:Guys, play Staal where ever you want...Bottom line is Max Talbot is a more dangerous offensive weapon then Staal at this point. And I think Talbot was a 9th round pick or something...

I am not trying to bash the guy. But I just can't see how anyone can feel any confidence with his offensive game...I guarantee you. You put Zigomanis on the 2nd line and he will out score Staal at this point...


Speaking of Talbot. He's gotten off to a slow, slow start this year as well.

Where are all the trade Talbot threads? He's been pretty much invisible since the start of the season.


Talbot is a 3rd line grinder, energy guy...He is not a 2nd overall pick. That is why you don't see the trade Talbot threads. Plus Talbot plays a big game for a little guy. The complete opposite of Staal...Plus Staal has much more trade value then Talbot...I hope...
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Re: There is no shame in being a 3rd line shut down center.

Postby meecrofilm on Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:38 am

^^ Well yeah. I was being a bit sarcastic with the where's the trade Talbot thread, but I'm just a little surprised that no one's brought up his fairly poor play yet.

And you bring up a good point about the ambiguity of the trade Staal threads:

Most people who are advocating trading Staal are doing so because they believe he has potential, right... then how are these same people giving up on him and saying that he, well, has no potential? That doesn't make much sense to me. Seems like you wan't to have your cake and eat it too (they need to think of a better expression for that because that one just doesn't make any sense. Why else would you have cake if not to eat it?"
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Re: There is no shame in being a 3rd line shut down center.

Postby Mr. Colby on Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:42 am

the part of the story I don't get is why everyone thinks that because staal was picked 2nd overall, he can't be a 3rd line center...

...that is such a huge part of every team, and i don't get why everyone thinks its like the worst thing we could do to allow him to become elite in that role... can you imagine a guy like that there 10 years from now?

unfortunately money will become an issue, considering we're not gonna wanna pay 5 mill for a 3rd liner (even though he deserves no more than 3)
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Re: There is no shame in being a 3rd line shut down center.

Postby meecrofilm on Tue Oct 21, 2008 12:59 am

tombarrassorules wrote:staal is do for a payday, and when it comes down to it, you can move him for a competent winger.


How so? If he sucks as bad as many people here say he does, what makes you think someone will be willing to give up a competent winger for him?
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Re: There is no shame in being a 3rd line shut down center.

Postby Three Stars on Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:15 am

tombarrassorules wrote:because you already have a few 3rd line centers that are capable of getting it done under contract. staal is do for a payday, and when it comes down to it, you can move him for a competent winger.


The Penguins have settled for "getting it done" from their 3rd liners for years. Interesting that the first year that they advance in the playoffs is the first year they have Jordan Staal as 3rd line center. Someone's gotta prevent the goals, and if they can do so at a high level, that's just as valuable as a scoring role.

The value of a (potentially) elite 3rd line center is criminally underestimated around here.
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Re: There is no shame in being a 3rd line shut down center.

Postby stopper40 on Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:01 am

tombarrassorules wrote: staal is do for a payday, and when it comes down to it, you can move him for a competent winger.



Due for a payday? Why? He's regressed since his first season here. As a center he doesn't use his wingers, He's constantly trying to beat the opposition all by himself, as a winger he can't handle passes from his center.

If the rumors that he wants up to 5 million a year are true or even close to being true. He's gone, he's just not worth that much, heck he's not worth what he's making now. He may be gone at the trading deadline or they may hope some gives him an offer sheet next July. But right now, he's just not playing well
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