Staal vs. Malone

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Re: Staal vs. Malone

Postby manicmonday18 on Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:07 am

staal. and i wouldn't use malone as a bench mark for anyone in terms of offensive stats, let alone a 2nd overall pick on a team of superstars.
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Re: Staal vs. Malone

Postby Samsdog on Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:30 pm

He also had Gonchar firing pucks off of the blade of his stick all season. With a suspect blue line in Tampa Bay I thought when he went and still think that he won't approach what he did last year.
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Re: Staal vs. Malone

Postby meecrofilm on Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:33 pm

^^

I don't think anyone expected him to approach what he did last year. Well, anyone who isn't in Tampa's front office.
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Re: Staal vs. Malone

Postby KG on Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:34 pm

Malone is also going through the usual big contract blues. He is trying to justify his big payday...

I don't doubt that Staal will develop into a nice player. The reason why many are speculating about his future is because he is a RFA at seasons end. I am sure RS will attempt to sign him, but if Staal thinks he is worth a certain amount that the pens don't agree with, then you have to consider moving him...or you will leave him open to a offer sheet (which may not be the worst thing in the world either.)
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Re: Staal vs. Malone

Postby toby91_ca on Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:47 pm

When Malone was Staal's age, he was about 4 years away from playing his first NHL game.

Take that for what it's worth. Staal's young age is a good excuse right now (that I agree with), but there will come a point in time that that excuse will no longer work. We need to think about it right now though, not many guys make it in this league by the time they are 20, only truly special players (Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, etc.) are very good, very early.
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Re: Staal vs. Malone

Postby Eismann on Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:43 pm

pens20 wrote:Yeah, I wasn't asking who you would pick, just showing that Malone got off to a slow start last season and ended up having a productive season. Staal is getting a knee-jerk reaction from fans instead of people being patient with his progress.


The biggest knee-jerking is from people who don't get how people are not happy with Staal's consistent inability to give a pass, get a pass, maintain possession, skate with power and purpose, win a board battle or otherwise generate/maintain offensive pressure like a top-6 forward is supposed to do. The criticisms are mostly on a game-by-game basis. Yes, there are those who want him shipped out, but they also believe that Today's Jordan is more accurately a reflection of Last Year's Jordan, which, up until the playoffs, mostly was putrid. You're the antimatter to those people; you think Today's Jordan is just 2006 Jordan on hiatus. Fine. There isn't one poster here in etherland who isn't hoping he improves.

And he's not in progress now; he's in regress. High bar, to be sure, that he set. But he's got to pull himself up.
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Re: Staal vs. Malone

Postby Henry Hank on Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:07 pm

Mid-season last year Malone was on pace for another 20-20 season and it looked like it was well beyond the point where he'd ever live up to his potential... then he did, at least for a few months. It's a long season and Jordan is going through the bumps that young, developing players usually experience. The hand-wringing is annoying because it's the same thing that happens any time any young Penguins player struggles. Pens fans should have enough experience from viewing to know that it takes time for normal players to develop and there are going to be bumps along the way.

I will say that while I'm staunchly in the camp that wants to preach patience here, free agency rules in the post-lockout NHL do change the way teams have to think about young players. Players get paid on potential and they get the big money in the early years of their career now, not later on based on their reputation and achievements. If Staal gets it back on track, I think you keep him and take the chance on spending a bit more than he's worth now to make it a bargain later. If he has another season like last year, it gets hairy because his asking price might not be in line with what the Pens want to risk, but other teams might be willing to go there. I think it only makes sense to move Staal if it's for someone young enough to be here for a while who has a high upside, i.e. a Gaborik, although I'm not completely in love with that idea.
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Re: Staal vs. Malone

Postby Eismann on Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:29 pm

Henry Hank wrote:The hand-wringing is annoying because it's the same thing that happens any time any young Penguins player struggles. Pens fans should have enough experience from viewing to know that it takes time for normal players to develop and there are going to be bumps along the way.


That's just it, HH. I don't really have a good feeling watching Staal struggle like this that it's 'normal.' Normal growing pains to me are getting comfortable with the game flow and positioning of linemates and opponents, building stamina and strength, in short gaining more control of oneself and surroundings in-game. Staal's troubles appear to be legion and cut across skill, strength, and mental lines. Basically, this isn't the baggage he came in with.

Thing is, I know what he looked like in his rookie year (good) and I know what he looked like in the playoffs last year (good), so these vicissitudes are troubling now. It's not like when a goal scorer struggles to finish or a dman just can't clear; things that usually work themselves out. Point is that I have as much evidence that he could be a Ryan Stone as I do that he could be an actual productive top-6 forward.

I hope for the latter.
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Re: Staal vs. Malone

Postby Jim on Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:48 pm

toby91_ca wrote:When Malone was Staal's age, he was about 4 years away from playing his first NHL game.

Take that for what it's worth. Staal's young age is a good excuse right now (that I agree with), but there will come a point in time that that excuse will no longer work. We need to think about it right now though, not many guys make it in this league by the time they are 20, only truly special players (Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, etc.) are very good, very early.


... and he had 169 NHL games less experiance under his belt.
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Re: Staal vs. Malone

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:49 pm

experience is nice, but when you're still growing at age 20 it means less than finishing your growth both physically and mentally does.
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Re: Staal vs. Malone

Postby dagny on Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:59 pm

Eismann wrote: vicissitudes


THIS is my new favorite word today. :D
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Re: Staal vs. Malone

Postby The Snapshot on Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:05 pm

I would prefer to look across the benches last night to see why Staal is a disappointment. The player who fit the Pens needs at that draft was wearing a Bruin's sweater last night. He looks ready to snipe.
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Re: Staal vs. Malone

Postby KG on Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:07 pm

Henry Hank wrote:Mid-season last year Malone was on pace for another 20-20 season and it looked like it was well beyond the point where he'd ever live up to his potential... then he did, at least for a few months. It's a long season and Jordan is going through the bumps that young, developing players usually experience. The hand-wringing is annoying because it's the same thing that happens any time any young Penguins player struggles. Pens fans should have enough experience from viewing to know that it takes time for normal players to develop and there are going to be bumps along the way.

I will say that while I'm staunchly in the camp that wants to preach patience here, free agency rules in the post-lockout NHL do change the way teams have to think about young players. Players get paid on potential and they get the big money in the early years of their career now, not later on based on their reputation and achievements. If Staal gets it back on track, I think you keep him and take the chance on spending a bit more than he's worth now to make it a bargain later. If he has another season like last year, it gets hairy because his asking price might not be in line with what the Pens want to risk, but other teams might be willing to go there. I think it only makes sense to move Staal if it's for someone young enough to be here for a while who has a high upside, i.e. a Gaborik, although I'm not completely in love with that idea.


HH. I am shocked that you would even consider moving Staal for the right price...You have come a long way, Mr. Patience :D
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Re: Staal vs. Malone

Postby Henry Hank on Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:27 pm

It's not so much about finding the right price to move him as it is the realities of free agency. Like I said, they're in a very tricky situation with him if he has another sub-par year. Not that I think that means he's a bust, but they have a potential problem if they can't negotiate a contract with him and someone else comes and takes him with an offer sheet. The draft picks are OK compensation, but not as good as getting a high impact player considering this team is clearly aiming to win now as much as anything.

Last year showed me not to discount the possibility. I never thought they'd go and get Hossa and I didn't figure they'd give up on Armstrong that quickly or move Esposito before he even played one season in the organization. I still doubt they'd be looking to give up on Staal, but if it looks like the situation will get hairy I won't blame them for looking. If they do move him for a Gaborik, they absolutely must lock that guy up. Trading Staal for a strict rental is completely unacceptable to me.
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Re: Staal vs. Malone

Postby laholm64 on Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:29 pm

At their current asking price can I choose neither?
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Re: Staal vs. Malone

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:36 pm

laholm64 wrote:At their current asking price can I choose neither?


Yeah sure, as soon as you tell me what Staal's current asking price is. You might want to let Shero know too, so he can start working out deals if its too high.
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Re: Staal vs. Malone

Postby laholm64 on Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:42 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:
laholm64 wrote:At their current asking price can I choose neither?


Yeah sure, as soon as you tell me what Staal's current asking price is. You might want to let Shero know too, so he can start working out deals if its too high.


Excellent point. As you can tell, I don't have a clue what that is. But I've read how Shero tried to lock him up long term and didn't get far, so I'm guessing it's more than Shero is wanting to pay. Seeing how much we spent on the likes of guys like Tank, I'd have to assume it's more than a couple million per. Which is what I think his current worth is. Not saying he can't become a very valuable player. But I have a problem paying guys big money for long term contracts based solely on potential. I'd rather see smaller contracts until the "arrive" and earn the money. I just can't figure out why he was so much better at 18 than he is at 20. A bad year for a young guy is one thing, but Staal is getting paired with 2 of the best players in the game and can't even register the phantom 2nd assist from time to time. So whatever his asking price is, gotta think it's too much.
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Re: Staal vs. Malone

Postby wallflower on Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:43 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:
laholm64 wrote:At their current asking price can I choose neither?


Yeah sure, as soon as you tell me what Staal's current asking price is. You might want to let Shero know too, so he can start working out deals if its too high.

So what you're saying is: posters on a message board repeating things until they believe them to be fact are not actually basing their decisions on real facts?

But I thought Staal wanted $8.7 a year and that there is a goalie controversy?
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Re: Staal vs. Malone

Postby wallflower on Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:45 pm

laholm64 wrote:But I've read how Shero tried to lock him up long term and didn't get far, so I'm guessing it's more than Shero is wanting to pay.

Actually, what Shero said was that he touched base with Staal & his agent over the summer about a contract but Staal said he'd rather wait until after this season because he felt he had underperformed last year.

(I'll look and see if I can find a link to the article.)
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Re: Staal vs. Malone

Postby laholm64 on Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:48 pm

wallflower wrote:
laholm64 wrote:But I've read how Shero tried to lock him up long term and didn't get far, so I'm guessing it's more than Shero is wanting to pay.

Actually, what Shero said was that he touched base with Staal & his agent over the summer about a contract but Staal said he'd rather wait until after this season because he felt he had underperformed last year.

(I'll look and see if I can find a link to the article.)


I'd appreciate that, thanks. The thing that disturbs me is that most players go nuts in a contract year, get a big contract, and then never live up to it. I sure hope this isn't the case for Staal because if this is his best and he's trying to show last year he underperformed, then we're in trouble.
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Re: Staal vs. Malone

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:50 pm

laholm64 wrote:
wallflower wrote:
laholm64 wrote:But I've read how Shero tried to lock him up long term and didn't get far, so I'm guessing it's more than Shero is wanting to pay.

Actually, what Shero said was that he touched base with Staal & his agent over the summer about a contract but Staal said he'd rather wait until after this season because he felt he had underperformed last year.

(I'll look and see if I can find a link to the article.)


I'd appreciate that, thanks. The thing that disturbs me is that most players go nuts in a contract year, get a big contract, and then never live up to it. I sure hope this isn't the case for Staal because if this is his best and he's trying to show last year he underperformed, then we're in trouble.


The thing is, last season could have been a contract year too, and all he would have to do to make next season a contract year would be sign a one year contract.
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Re: Staal vs. Malone

Postby meecrofilm on Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:50 pm

laholm64 wrote:
wallflower wrote:
laholm64 wrote:But I've read how Shero tried to lock him up long term and didn't get far, so I'm guessing it's more than Shero is wanting to pay.

Actually, what Shero said was that he touched base with Staal & his agent over the summer about a contract but Staal said he'd rather wait until after this season because he felt he had underperformed last year.

(I'll look and see if I can find a link to the article.)


I'd appreciate that, thanks. The thing that disturbs me is that most players go nuts in a contract year, get a big contract, and then never live up to it. I sure hope this isn't the case for Staal because if this is his best and he's trying to show last year he underperformed, then we're in trouble.


Staal is actually going to be doing a favor for the Pens by underporming in a contract year, get a small contract, and then completely overachieve afterwards. =p
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Re: Staal vs. Malone

Postby wallflower on Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:59 pm

laholm64 wrote:
wallflower wrote:
laholm64 wrote:But I've read how Shero tried to lock him up long term and didn't get far, so I'm guessing it's more than Shero is wanting to pay.

Actually, what Shero said was that he touched base with Staal & his agent over the summer about a contract but Staal said he'd rather wait until after this season because he felt he had underperformed last year.

(I'll look and see if I can find a link to the article.)


I'd appreciate that, thanks. The thing that disturbs me is that most players go nuts in a contract year, get a big contract, and then never live up to it. I sure hope this isn't the case for Staal because if this is his best and he's trying to show last year he underperformed, then we're in trouble.

This article sort of touches on it but it's not the one I was looking for/thinking of. The PG's search function sucks.
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Re: Staal vs. Malone

Postby Idoit40fans on Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:02 pm

wallflower wrote:The PG's search function sucks.


Yeah its really frustrating trying to use. I remember a month or so ago trying to find something. I gave up after a while. Actually I think it was about Staal as well.
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Re: Staal vs. Malone

Postby wallflower on Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:06 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:
wallflower wrote:The PG's search function sucks.


Yeah its really frustrating trying to use. I remember a month or so ago trying to find something. I gave up after a while. Actually I think it was about Staal as well.

They want you to type in a specific phrase or date. How often does someone searching for something actually know an exact phrase from the article in question? I tried just typing in "Staal" and then "Shero" but there are too many unrelated results to dig through.
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