Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

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Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby The Current One on Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:03 pm

Last night was the perfect example of why the Pens are having difficulty scoring goals. Their lack of size and toughness on the wing has made them a perimeter team. I can't think of one even-strength goal thus far that has been the result of traffic in front. Other than Kennedy (who has two goals, both in the same game), it doesn't seem like any of the forwards are willing to get their noses dirty. Malone isn't worth the money he got, but he did create traffic in front, as did Roberts (when healthy) to a lesser degree. Staal has been better the past couple of games along the walls, but out in front, he's nowhere to be seen. I feel bad for Geno and Sid who are pretty much getting hammered every time they enter the offensive zone because no one will go to the net, and opposing defensemen can go right at them and pressure them. At this point, I'd put Goddard out in front - at least you know he could take the punishment and open up some room for Sid and Geno to create.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby shmenguin on Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:41 pm

The Current One wrote:At this point, I'd put Goddard out in front - at least you know he could take the punishment and open up some room for Sid and Geno to create.


???

i mean...????
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby westside on Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:45 pm

I would say not shooting the puck more is what is hurting this team. You could have the biggest and baddest dudes in front of the net, but if you're not shooting, they're not going to be effective.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby Mr. Colby on Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:50 pm

It would be nice if some secondary scoring would present itself... Crosby and Malkin are the only ones producing...
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby pens#1 on Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:02 pm

i think the biggest problem is that many of the Pens wingers cannot cycle the puck down low and keep in there- last season the Pens had a ton of shots/scoring chances that were a result of this cycling
this year it seems they come in the zone, take a shot which misses the net and the play goes the other way - i know Satan has 4 goals but he refuses to play along the boards
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby puckeye on Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:02 pm

Mr. Colby wrote:It would be nice if some secondary scoring would present itself... Crosby and Malkin are the only ones producing...


that's why I would split them up
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby DelPen on Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:03 pm

Putting your two best playmakers on the same line without your two best snipers is hurting the team more.

Dupuis-Crosby-Satan
Tank-Malkin-Sykora

Solves some problems.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby puckeye on Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:05 pm

DelPen wrote:Putting your two best playmakers on the same line without your two best snipers is hurting the team more.

Dupuis-Crosby-Satan
Tank-Malkin-Sykora

Solves some problems.


like that combo, though I would like to see Cooke get a shot on Sid's line. Really liked his game last night

Dupuis doesn't bother me, Cooke could bring some edge to the line which may open some space for Sid.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby SolidSnake on Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:06 pm

Are we 0-10?
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby Mr. Colby on Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:06 pm

Over the past 6 games, 87/71 have figured in on 12 of the 15 penguin goals (11 of which BOTH figured in on).

If you want to win hockey games, it would be nice if your team could have some other guys scoring...

If you want them to play together, that's all fine and good, but jordan staal better figure out how to make a line produce (if he's this top-6 forward he proclaims to be)
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby westside on Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:12 pm

Karl_Racki wrote:
westside wrote:I would say not shooting the puck more is what is hurting this team. You could have the biggest and baddest dudes in front of the net, but if you're not shooting, they're not going to be effective.


Thats whats hurting them right now, but when its time to play hard, tough games, this team won't have what it takes to stand up for their stars when teams take runs at them.

And its coming.


I don't know about that. I mean, when the Pens played the Flyers this year the team really seemed to back each other up. Granted, they have not played like that since, but I think it will be there when needed. Are they as tough as last year, probably not, but I also think a big part of last years success was how tight the team was. Most of those guys had played a few years (at least) together and really backed each other up. I would not be surprised to see the same thing start to happen this year, but it could take till after the New Year. I think with all the new pieces that kind of stuff takes time, but I'm confident it will come eventually... and if not, FIRE MT :twisted:
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby TheHammer24 on Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:15 pm

The problem with this team is their neutral zone and transition game. I don't care if we have Jarome Iginla and Marian Hossa up front. Sure, we'd improve since we'd have players that could carry it "all themsevles", but seriously watch the D make plays. If done properly, on a regroup the D should make the pass as the forwards are moving forwards. What happens however, is our defenseman especially Eaton, Scuderi, and Sydor hold the puck too long - lacking the confidence and/or abiltiy to make that pass. As a result, the offense, stops circles back again, loses all flow, and the defensive team gains the puck. The other thing that often happens, is just a plain bad pass that is either turned over or substantially interupts flow on its own. Watch it. How many times do you see Scuds and Eaton making extra D to D passes because they cannot make the first pass. Bad passes is why we dump the puck more than we normally do. Bad passes are why we can't get quality scoring chances off the rush, which we were really good at last year. This leads us ot having to dump and chase more often. This teams small wingers aren't built for that, but that's not the problem. The absense of Whit and Gonch as well as bad passing defensemen are killing us. In my opinion, Eaton has been absolutely awful with this regard so far this season.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby NJ5934 on Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:20 pm

I think it comes down to the system they play. The Pens play defence first and its most evident when their on the offensive attack. Typically they dump and cycle or Sid and Malkin attempt to break through both defenders and the trailing forward on their own. It's usually a one or two man attack. There is no 5 man attack because usually the blueline plays deep and one of the three forwards falls back. The transition game is meaningless because only two players are on the attack. Therrien's success in Pittsburgh has been attributed to the luxury he has had to send Sid, Geno, Sykora, Gonchar and Whitney out four or five times a night on the pee pee.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby NJ5934 on Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:30 pm

What I meant to say in the post above is I don't think its a lack of size or toughness on the wings is hurting us as much as is the lack of aggression. The lack of aggression, I believe, is attributed to Therrien's 'defence first' system which calls for players to stay back, be patient and wait for the occasional odd man opportunity. The Penguins were outshot and outplayed in 3/4 of the games last season yet made it to the cup final, that alone speaks volumes.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby laholm64 on Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:32 pm

TheHammer24 wrote:The problem with this team is their neutral zone and transition game. I don't care if we have Jarome Iginla and Marian Hossa up front. Sure, we'd improve since we'd have players that could carry it "all themsevles", but seriously watch the D make plays. If done properly, on a regroup the D should make the pass as the forwards are moving forwards. What happens however, is our defenseman especially Eaton, Scuderi, and Sydor hold the puck too long - lacking the confidence and/or abiltiy to make that pass. As a result, the offense, stops circles back again, loses all flow, and the defensive team gains the puck. The other thing that often happens, is just a plain bad pass that is either turned over or substantially interupts flow on its own. Watch it. How many times do you see Scuds and Eaton making extra D to D passes because they cannot make the first pass. Bad passes is why we dump the puck more than we normally do. Bad passes are why we can't get quality scoring chances off the rush, which we were really good at last year. This leads us ot having to dump and chase more often. This teams small wingers aren't built for that, but that's not the problem. The absense of Whit and Gonch as well as bad passing defensemen are killing us. In my opinion, Eaton has been absolutely awful with this regard so far this season.


Well said. But I also agree we need to take more shots and get in the goalies face. All these things are contributors to our poor offense this year.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Oct 29, 2008 1:40 pm

Team toughness isn't about beating up the other guys, its about going to work and sticking up for your teammates when you have to, and we haven't really seen much need for that yet outside of Godard stepping in to remind people that he is there and will punch you in the jaw.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby bill from turtle creek on Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:18 pm

One might successfully argue that we'd have been better off keeping Malone. Satan and Fedetenko together make $5.75 million, and are only signed for one year. Malone makes $4.25million, and more than likely some other schmuck would have been available to play for $1.5million, that paired together with Malone, would have made just as effective a duo as Satan and Fedetenko.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby Mr. Colby on Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:43 pm

bill from turtle creek wrote:One might successfully argue that we'd have been better off keeping Malone. Satan and Fedetenko together make $5.75 million, and are only signed for one year. Malone makes $4.25million, and more than likely some other schmuck would have been available to play for $1.5million, that paired together with Malone, would have made just as effective a duo as Satan and Fedetenko.


This.

The whole Malone thing is kind of an enigma... Playing for the pens, he would have been worth that kind of money because he would have produced with Geno as he did last year... However the pens figured that he was not worth that much money when looking at the NHL as a whole, and therefore wouldn't give him that amount. Meanwhile, he signed with another team for the amount that he only would have lived up to with the pens and, sure enough, has shown he isn't worth that price.

That probably made no sense and my head is spinning :shock:
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:50 pm

What did Malone do through October last season? Thats right 2 goals, 3 assists. Satan is 4+2, and is clearly better, Fedotenko is 2+0, marginally worse.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby meecrofilm on Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:01 pm

SolidSnake wrote:Are we 0-10?


No. Actually, Pens are on pace to finish the season with 98 points. And they're playing well below the level that they're capable of.

So I agree.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby KG on Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:02 pm

bill from turtle creek wrote:One might successfully argue that we'd have been better off keeping Malone. Satan and Fedetenko together make $5.75 million, and are only signed for one year. Malone makes $4.25million, and more than likely some other schmuck would have been available to play for $1.5million, that paired together with Malone, would have made just as effective a duo as Satan and Fedetenko.


I don't think that it was the yearly salary that disturbed Shero, it was the long term commitment...Most likely 5 years...

I understand what you are saying though...Satan at $3.5MM is no bargain...
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby Samsdog on Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:19 pm

puckeye wrote:
Mr. Colby wrote:It would be nice if some secondary scoring would present itself... Crosby and Malkin are the only ones producing...


that's why I would split them up


Seconded. The move did what it was supposed to in jump starting the team, now it's time to go back to having more than one line that can score and a Sykora that isn't in a funk.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby TheHammer24 on Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:43 pm

KG wrote:
bill from turtle creek wrote:One might successfully argue that we'd have been better off keeping Malone. Satan and Fedetenko together make $5.75 million, and are only signed for one year. Malone makes $4.25million, and more than likely some other schmuck would have been available to play for $1.5million, that paired together with Malone, would have made just as effective a duo as Satan and Fedetenko.


I don't think that it was the yearly salary that disturbed Shero, it was the long term commitment...Most likely 5 years...

I understand what you are saying though...Satan at $3.5MM is no bargain...


Furthermore, Satan's salary is inlfated since it's only for one year.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby bill from turtle creek on Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:10 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:What did Malone do through October last season? Thats right 2 goals, 3 assists. Satan is 4+2, and is clearly better, Fedotenko is 2+0, marginally worse.


Yes, but Malone also was a penalty killer, a fighter, a hitter, and clogged up the front of the net on the power play. Satan does none of these.

Hindsight is always 20-20, of course, and Malone had a great second half of the season. I think that it's pretty safe to assume though, based on what we have seen of Satan, that he may well end up close to 30 goals, but he will bring nothing else to the table. This thread is about a perceived lack of toughness on the wings, and Satan is one of the reasons that this problem may exist.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:16 pm

Yeah but the complaint about the lack of toughness was that it was needed to put the puck in the net, which isn't the case. Each of the players mentioned has as many goals as Malone did at this tiem last year. In fact, at this point last year, Malone was 2+1, in the 11th and last game of october, he had 2 assists.
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