Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby bill from turtle creek on Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:22 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:Yeah but the complaint about the lack of toughness was that it was needed to put the puck in the net, which isn't the case. Each of the players mentioned has as many goals as Malone did at this tiem last year. In fact, at this point last year, Malone was 2+1, in the 11th and last game of october, he had 2 assists.


So what you are saying is, you'd rather have Satan and Fedotenko than Malone and some schmuck? I'm not sure I feel the same way.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:25 pm

bill from turtle creek wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Yeah but the complaint about the lack of toughness was that it was needed to put the puck in the net, which isn't the case. Each of the players mentioned has as many goals as Malone did at this tiem last year. In fact, at this point last year, Malone was 2+1, in the 11th and last game of october, he had 2 assists.


So what you are saying is, you'd rather have Satan and Fedotenko than Malone and some schmuck? I'm not sure I feel the same way.


Leaving Satan out of it entirely, I'd rather have Fedotenko and his contract than Malone and his contract. Adding Satan is an added perk of the extra money made available.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby Corvidae on Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:26 pm

bill from turtle creek wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Yeah but the complaint about the lack of toughness was that it was needed to put the puck in the net, which isn't the case. Each of the players mentioned has as many goals as Malone did at this tiem last year. In fact, at this point last year, Malone was 2+1, in the 11th and last game of october, he had 2 assists.


So what you are saying is, you'd rather have Satan and Fedotenko than Malone and some schmuck? I'm not sure I feel the same way.


The Malone argument is almost moot because of the length of contract. $4.5 would be ALMOST acceptable, but not for 40 years, or whatever he got. Malone > Satan if they both have one year deals. Satan > Malone if you'd have to get him with the deal the Lightning gave.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby Antonio on Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:15 pm

How about Shanahan now that he is a total FA? I know he is 400 years old, but he does not seem to let that affect him.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby columbia on Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:14 pm

Antonio wrote:How about Shanahan now that he is a total FA? I know he is 400 years old, but he does not seem to let that affect him.


Considering that neither Gonchar nor Whitney are affecting the cap right now:
Yes, it is worth the negligible risk.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby Tico Rick on Thu Oct 30, 2008 6:31 pm

After eight games with Tampa Bay, Malone has 1 goal, 0 assists, and is a -3. Of course he is leading the team in penalty minutes with 24. Not worth what TB is paying him.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby bill from turtle creek on Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:09 pm

Of course, TB is a complete mess. Stupid owners, bad coach, no defense. It's entirely possible that Malone's performance is due to the environment that he is in.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby meecrofilm on Thu Oct 30, 2008 7:11 pm

bill from turtle creek wrote:It's entirely possible that Malone's performance is due to the environment that he is in.


Are you talking about Pittsburgh, or Tampa? ^^
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby bill from turtle creek on Thu Oct 30, 2008 8:48 pm

Both, I suppose.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby brwi on Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:31 pm

KG wrote:
bill from turtle creek wrote:One might successfully argue that we'd have been better off keeping Malone. Satan and Fedetenko together make $5.75 million, and are only signed for one year. Malone makes $4.25million, and more than likely some other schmuck would have been available to play for $1.5million, that paired together with Malone, would have made just as effective a duo as Satan and Fedetenko.


I don't think that it was the yearly salary that disturbed Shero, it was the long term commitment...Most likely 5 years...

I understand what you are saying though...Satan at $3.5MM is no bargain...


Yeah, but the Pens are only on the hook for one year with Satan and Fedo and they were stop-gap signings made necessary when Hossa opted to go to DET. I think RS was pretty shrewd to get them on the roster and for only one year. Malone is making 6mil this year and then 4.25mil the next 4....no thanks. I'd rather have a year of Satan and Fedo and then a chance at signing better in the off-season than on the hook with Malone for 4 more years.

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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby shmenguin on Thu Oct 30, 2008 9:39 pm

bill from turtle creek wrote:One might successfully argue that we'd have been better off keeping Malone. Satan and Fedetenko together make $5.75 million, and are only signed for one year. Malone makes $4.25million, and more than likely some other schmuck would have been available to play for $1.5million, that paired together with Malone, would have made just as effective a duo as Satan and Fedetenko.


malone's contract is exactly the kind of contract that a good GM avoids. "one" could never successfully argue that we'd be better off. this whole argument treats malone's contract like it's a 1 year deal.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby Antonio on Fri Oct 31, 2008 1:53 am

Malone is never going to be more than a 50-60 point player who played a few mediocre seasons here and 1 really good one, with some of the best talent in the NHL. He is grossly overpaid in TB, and is demonstrating why he is grossly overpaid with the lack of talent that made him better here. My persona feelings are good riddence to the athlete who values a few more $$$ over winning. Its not like you are starving at 3-4million anyway, so...enjoy losing with your extra 1-1.5 million.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby bhaw on Fri Oct 31, 2008 2:20 am

It's not size and grit we are lacking. There is just no one even attempting to get to the center of the ice in the offensive zone. I don't know if it's by design or not.

Satan is doing the best of TRYING to get to those spots and didn't have any trouble along the boards from what I saw.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby bill from turtle creek on Fri Oct 31, 2008 6:24 am

Rail all you like against Malone's contract, but it's clear that the Pens were a better team with him in the lineup. Good players cost money. Satan and Fedetenko aren't free, and so far they aren't very good, either.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby shmenguin on Fri Oct 31, 2008 7:23 am

bill from turtle creek wrote:Rail all you like against Malone's contract, but it's clear that the Pens were a better team with him in the lineup. Good players cost money. Satan and Fedetenko aren't free, and so far they aren't very good, either.


they were a lot better with hossa too. shoulda offered him the cap max for 15 years. darnit.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby bill from turtle creek on Fri Oct 31, 2008 7:34 am

While I do not argue that Malone would have been expensive, and that his contract certainly would have risk involved, there was still value in a guy who filled so many roles (PP, penalty kill, checker, fighter etc etc). If you have to sign 4 other guys for $1million each to do each of those things, the money is the same. An argument could be made that none of those jobs, save perhaps the PK role, have been adequately replaced by someone else. And there certainly seems to be a lack of chemistry that is apparent, as well.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby bhaw on Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:15 am

bill from turtle creek wrote:While I do not argue that Malone would have been expensive, and that his contract certainly would have risk involved, there was still value in a guy who filled so many roles (PP, penalty kill, checker, fighter etc etc). If you have to sign 4 other guys for $1million each to do each of those things, the money is the same. An argument could be made that none of those jobs, save perhaps the PK role, have been adequately replaced by someone else. And there certainly seems to be a lack of chemistry that is apparent, as well.



Malone played one good year and is playing crappy again. Yes, he would be very welcomed on this team if we got the Malone of last year. But Tampa hasn't even gotten 1/3 of the malone from last year. Resigning him doesn't guarantee he plays the same as he did when he was helpful. I don't think anyone argued that the Malone that was on this team last year wouldn't be valuable... most argued that we would never see that Malone again. We might, but it won't be until his 7th year (or whatever is his last) of his current contract.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby bill from turtle creek on Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:25 am

Whatever. I'm just so glad that Satan and Fedetenko are the real deal. And I wonder what bargains will replace them next year?
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby bhaw on Fri Oct 31, 2008 8:35 pm

bill from turtle creek wrote:Whatever. I'm just so glad that Satan and Fedetenko are the real deal. And I wonder what bargains will replace them next year?


Satan has been one of our most consistent players and has 5 goals already. On pace for about 40, 30 if he slows down. Malone will be lucky to hit 30 once in his career and will never come close to 40. What more do you want out of Satan at this point? IMO he was our best forward last night until he took the penalty.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby bill from turtle creek on Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:51 pm

Satan is too much of a one trick pony for me. I didn't see the whole game last night, so I can't comment on it, but by and large he's a guy who's not winning battles for the puck along the boards or in the corners. He's a darter in the offensive zone, for the most part, a guy who just wants to weave in and out of traffic, and while I understand that he's being paid to score goals, I prefer a player who brings more to the table. He's scored nearly 350 NHL goals, but he's not considered a stud, is he?

To each his own. I didn't like Malone's long deal, either, but I no longer am sure that the strategy of bringing in short fixes with short contracts at low-middle money is going to allow Crosby and/or Malkin to reach their top productivity. And given that this thread started out with a discourse on the Pens' lack of toughness on the wings, it seems to me that tough wings who are skilled enough to play with our centers are going to be hard to come by. Maybe they should have tried harder to hold onto the one that they had.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby Tico Rick on Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:03 pm

Okay, maybe we sign Malone, but lose Orpik. Then somebody would've had to start a thread called "Lack of size/toughness on defense hurting this team"
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby Why So Serious? on Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:05 pm

Orpik>>>>>>Malone and much more valuable than Malone. Hands down.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby bill from turtle creek on Sat Nov 01, 2008 7:54 am

Tico Rick wrote:Okay, maybe we sign Malone, but lose Orpik. Then somebody would've had to start a thread called "Lack of size/toughness on defense hurting this team"



Well, that's the conundrum, I suppose. RS can't keep everybody. I'm just not sure that their business plan of getting midlevel wingers like Satan and Fedetenko every year or so and hoping for the best is going to work out consistently enough. Heck, next offseason Sykora's is a FA, too, so they will need at least 3 of these types.
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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby brwi on Sat Nov 01, 2008 8:30 am

bill from turtle creek wrote:
Tico Rick wrote:Okay, maybe we sign Malone, but lose Orpik. Then somebody would've had to start a thread called "Lack of size/toughness on defense hurting this team"



Well, that's the conundrum, I suppose. RS can't keep everybody. I'm just not sure that their business plan of getting midlevel wingers like Satan and Fedetenko every year or so and hoping for the best is going to work out consistently enough. Heck, next offseason Sykora's is a FA, too, so they will need at least 3 of these types.


There's always the draft and development within :) Things have been depleted with most of the high picks already on the roster and a few traded, but I don't see RS trying to follow a stop-gap plan every year of signing 2nd tier forwards. right now, at least the Pens have flexibility and the guys that are signed long-term are exactly the players you want long-term. No Yashin or other albatrosses hanging over their heads.

In time this year, Fedo is capable of being a pretty close substitute for Malone. It may or may not work out but I think that was a good signing under the circumstances and at a good price and contract length. Satan was what was left when Hossa signed with Detroit, which was the risk RS was taking with Plan A of retaining Hossa and losing Malone and likely Orpik. I think the gamble was worth taking even if it proved fruitless. Satan isn't going to bring the all-around game of Hossa nor the production, but he'll fill some of the void and Pens have the flexibility of only being on the hook for one year.

We're probably not having much of this conversation if Gonchar and Whitney aren't injured. The weakner areas of the Pens are being magnified by their absence so far, and the wingers are that area that isn't as strong as I'm sure RS would like.

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Re: Lack of size/toughness on the wing hurting this team

Postby Tico Rick on Sat Nov 01, 2008 8:46 am

bill from turtle creek wrote:
Tico Rick wrote:Okay, maybe we sign Malone, but lose Orpik. Then somebody would've had to start a thread called "Lack of size/toughness on defense hurting this team"



Well, that's the conundrum, I suppose. RS can't keep everybody. I'm just not sure that their business plan of getting midlevel wingers like Satan and Fedetenko every year or so and hoping for the best is going to work out consistently enough. Heck, next offseason Sykora's is a FA, too, so they will need at least 3 of these types.


I think RS was really expecting Hossa to re-sign, and when he didn't, RS had to do some fast dancing, and those one-year deals are a pretty clear indication of this. If he had known earlier that Hossa would be gone, I think you could have landed Naslund. If things don't work out this year, I look for very different wingers next year.
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