All of our problems go back to the defense...

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All of our problems go back to the defense...

Postby TheHammer24 on Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:26 pm

The problems on this team may be a lack of grit, toughness, scoring wingers, or shots. However, almost all of these stems from our defenses inability to move the puck out of the defensive zone through the neutral zone and to our skilled forwards. Ideally, the puck moves as the forwards flow forward supporting each other through the zone. This flow allows for scoring chances and shots off the rush and doesn't necessitate as much dumping and chasing. Instead, our defense, cannot make this first pass. As a result, the support breaks down in the neutral zone as the forwards circle back as our defensemen make extra D to D passes. When they do make passes, they're often bad and disrupt flow on their own or are simply straight turned over.

Without support, we have no choice to dump when we are confronted at the blue line. When we dump, we must forecheck and this team isn't built for that.
Last edited by TheHammer24 on Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: All of our problems go back to the defense...

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:32 pm

Mostly this, Crosby in particular spends way too much time low in our zone trying to move the puck up.
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Re: All of our problems go back to the defense...

Postby PensFanInDC on Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:36 pm

If only this team could get someone like Gonchar or Ryan Whitney. That would fix the whole problem.

I'll say it again. WE ARE FINE! Give it time. Everything will start to click.
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Re: All of our problems go back to the defense...

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:38 pm

PensFanInDC wrote:If only this team could get someone like Gonchar or Ryan Whitney. That would fix the whole problem.

I'll say it again. WE ARE FINE! Give it time. Everything will start to click.


This is your first post in this thread. Did you delete the other one?
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Re: All of our problems go back to the defense...

Postby TheHammer24 on Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:48 pm

PensFanInDC wrote:If only this team could get someone like Gonchar or Ryan Whitney. That would fix the whole problem.

I'll say it again. WE ARE FINE! Give it time. Everything will start to click.


I don't understand why everything comes back to we are fine. First of all, I'm simply positing why this team is not playing as well as it could, and I'm not proposing some doomsday scenario. Second of all, Whitney is out until Christmas, and Gonchar could be out the entire regular season. If they're the solution to an obvious problem, I don't know if that makes us "fine."
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Re: All of our problems go back to the defense...

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:54 pm

Its funny there are people that seem to think its all over, a few people willing to say whats going wrong, then the group of people who think they are better fans if they ignore the current weaknesses and criticize the other two groups for acknowledging that there might be something wrong.
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Re: All of our problems go back to the defense...

Postby TheHammer24 on Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:55 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:Its funny there are people that seem to think its all over, a few people willing to say whats going wrong, then the group of people who think they are better fans if they ignore the current weaknesses and criticize the other two groups for acknowledging that there might be something wrong.


Which group are you classifying me in?
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Re: All of our problems go back to the defense...

Postby SolidSnake on Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:59 pm

How many of these types of topics are gonna be on here today? We are over passing, we are not tough enough, now the D sucks. Next topic is gonna be that the team shouldn't have a team meal before the game.
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Re: All of our problems go back to the defense...

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:00 pm

You were 2, even though I didn't number them, PfiDC was 3.
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Re: All of our problems go back to the defense...

Postby bill from turtle creek on Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:03 pm

But wait. I read right on this board, a million different times, that both Gonchar and Whitney suck. How can the team possibly miss them?
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Re: All of our problems go back to the defense...

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:04 pm

bill from turtle creek wrote:But wait. I read right on this board, a million different times, that both Gonchar and Whitney suck. How can the team possibly miss them?


She's gone from suck to blow.
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Re: All of our problems go back to the defense...

Postby maudineormsby on Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:06 pm

TheHammer24 wrote:The problems on this team may be a lack of grit, toughness, scoring wingers, or shots. However, almost all of these stems from our defenses inability to move the puck out of the defensive zone through the neutral zone and to our skilled forwards. Ideally, the puck moves as the forwards flow forward supporting each other through the zone. This flow allows for scoring chances and shots off the rush and doesn't necessitate as much dumping and chasing. Instead, our defense, cannot make this first pass. As a result, the support breaks down in the neutral zone as the forwards circle back as our defensemen make extra D to D passes. When they do make passes, they're often bad and disrupt flow on their own or are simply straight turned over.

Without support, we have no choice to dump when we are confronted at the blue line. When we dump, we must forecheck and this team isn't built for that.


Perhaps I'll be the only one to say this, but I found this post insightful. I've thought a lot that we are having trouble transitioning into the offensive zone with any fluidity, due to the inexperience of our top D men. I think when Tanger, Eaton, and Gogo get time to settle, we'll see this improve. Whit coming back will help, but might make things worse right at first til he settles in.

I miss Gonch.

But no, the sky's not falling. As I posted in another thread, we're 1 point off our start last year and we're in fine position to get things on a roll into November.

I just can't wait for all the complainers to give up and leave til the playoffs start.
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Re: All of our problems go back to the defense...

Postby Mongoose87 on Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:14 pm

The long-term solution to our defensive struggle will be here in spring.
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Re: All of our problems go back to the defense...

Postby maudineormsby on Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:27 pm

Mongoose87 wrote:The long-term solution to our defensive struggle will be here in spring.


Huh?
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Re: All of our problems go back to the defense...

Postby KG on Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:31 pm

maudineormsby wrote:
Mongoose87 wrote:The long-term solution to our defensive struggle will be here in spring.


Huh?


Gonchar...
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Re: All of our problems go back to the defense...

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:33 pm

KG wrote:
maudineormsby wrote:
Mongoose87 wrote:The long-term solution to our defensive struggle will be here in spring.


Huh?


Gonchar...


Tarnstrom
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Re: All of our problems go back to the defense...

Postby PensFanInDC on Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:38 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:Its funny there are people that seem to think its all over, a few people willing to say whats going wrong, then the group of people who think they are better fans if they ignore the current weaknesses and criticize the other two groups for acknowledging that there might be something wrong.


The beginning of this season almost mirrors the beginning of last season sans the injuries (those came later last season and, fingers crossed, wont happen this season). What did the Pens do last year to turn it around? Crosby got hurt and Malkin stepped up. Conklin came out of nowhere and played solid in net. There was no strategy change, no major roster moves (until the deadline). All I am saying is that its WAY too early to think that there is something seriously wrong. Give the team time to gel, give MT a chance to change the lineup a few hundred more times and after 30 games if we are at 10-15-5 then yes, we can talk about what is seriously wrong.

And who said I think I am better? That would be Idoitic of me. Nowhere did I say I thought I was better then anyone. I just choose to stay positive and realize that this is a long season that is only 10 games old.
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Re: All of our problems go back to the defense...

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:44 pm

And no one here is being negative, so whats your point? What the penguins did last year: improved defense(what people were complaining about), gained consistent goaltending(what people were complaining about), and gave consistent effort(again, what people were complaining about). Just because people can see that there is something wrong doesn't mean they are giving up on the team. When you try to give your wisdom(I'll say it again, we are fine, give it time), its very redundant and frankly a little condescending. Do you think everyone in this thread doesn't know that this will be a playoff team in April? That doesn't mean they are perfect now. Why waste your time coming to this board if you don't want to talk about the team?
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Re: All of our problems go back to the defense...

Postby Daniel87 on Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:45 pm

TheHammer24 wrote:
PensFanInDC wrote:If only this team could get someone like Gonchar or Ryan Whitney. That would fix the whole problem.

I'll say it again. WE ARE FINE! Give it time. Everything will start to click.


I don't understand why everything comes back to we are fine. First of all, I'm simply positing why this team is not playing as well as it could, and I'm not proposing some doomsday scenario.


Thank-you! My thoughts exactly over the past few weeks after ever time somebody said that. Some people assume that just because you criticize how someone has played so far, that means you think they are the worst player in Penguins history and will never improve.
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Re: All of our problems go back to the defense...

Postby 25+66+22=#1 on Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:52 pm

TheHammer24 wrote:The problems on this team may be a lack of grit, toughness, scoring wingers, or shots. However, almost all of these stems from our defenses inability to move the puck out of the defensive zone through the neutral zone and to our skilled forwards. Ideally, the puck moves as the forwards flow forward supporting each other through the zone. This flow allows for scoring chances and shots off the rush and doesn't necessitate as much dumping and chasing. Instead, our defense, cannot make this first pass. As a result, the support breaks down in the neutral zone as the forwards circle back as our defensemen make extra D to D passes. When they do make passes, they're often bad and disrupt flow on their own or are simply straight turned over.

Without support, we have no choice to dump when we are confronted at the blue line. When we dump, we must forecheck and this team isn't built for that.


I think this is right on, and that it shouldn't be taken as a doomsday declaration, but a keen observation. Puck Support/transistion game is the biggest problem this team faces. An example: Scuderi and Orpik are excellent defensive d-men, but neither excels as a puck mover, so as a tandem they are going to have a lot of shifts spent almost entirely in their own zone. They do the job, keep the puck out of their net, but nothing goes the other way. Gologoski is wet behind the ears, and has a lot of improving to do in his own zone, but many of the teams best offensive shifts occur with him on the ice.
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Re: All of our problems go back to the defense...

Postby PensFanInDC on Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:58 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:When you try to give your wisdom(I'll say it again, we are fine, give it time), its very redundant and frankly a little condescending. Do you think everyone in this thread doesn't know that this will be a playoff team in April? That doesn't mean they are perfect now. Why waste your time coming to this board if you don't want to talk about the team?


Talk about condescending...
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Re: All of our problems go back to the defense...

Postby Pitts on Wed Oct 29, 2008 3:58 pm

TheHammer24 wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:Its funny there are people that seem to think its all over, a few people willing to say whats going wrong, then the group of people who think they are better fans if they ignore the current weaknesses and criticize the other two groups for acknowledging that there might be something wrong.


Which group are you classifying me in?

He's an idoit. What does he know?
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Re: All of our problems go back to the defense...

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:06 pm

PensFanInDC wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:When you try to give your wisdom(I'll say it again, we are fine, give it time), its very redundant and frankly a little condescending. Do you think everyone in this thread doesn't know that this will be a playoff team in April? That doesn't mean they are perfect now. Why waste your time coming to this board if you don't want to talk about the team?


Talk about condescending...


There is a difference between logic and condescension. Everything you've said here is complaining about people discussing the team. What are they supposed to talk about when the team isn't playing well?
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Re: All of our problems go back to the defense...

Postby The Snapshot on Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:28 pm

Of course it comes back to the D, you are dead on. If you look at the games that we have been badly outplayed in (the home opener and last night specifically), these have been against teams that make it very difficult from the neutral zone on into our defensive zone.

The fortunes of the team rest on the shoulders of Letang and Goligoski, and these two games in particular have been their worst performances as individuals. Last night, Goligoski gets high marks from me for sticking with it, but he was awful with and without the puck. It's not that surprising that as a rookie making the big gaffe early in the game would hurt his confidence for the rest of the night. That sad part was that even after his mistake, and given the obvious impact it had on his confidence, he was still the most dangerous offensive threat from our blueline.

I actually don't think Letang knows how to shoot the puck and get it through. It's like he has a huge magnum pistol there but he can't figure out how to get it out of the holster.

Mark Eaton's time cannot come soon enough for me. He is what Scuderi used to be, which is weak and an easy target for the opposing team's checkers. I still remember Shero talking about his "good first pass" when he signed him originally, I just don't remember seeing one yet.
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Re: All of our problems go back to the defense...

Postby TheHammer24 on Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:37 pm

The Snapshot wrote:Mark Eaton's time cannot come soon enough for me. He is what Scuderi used to be, which is weak and an easy target for the opposing team's checkers. I still remember Shero talking about his "good first pass" when he signed him originally, I just don't remember seeing one yet.


Thank You! I couldn't agree more about Eaton. You can just see the opposing team licking their chops when they dump to his side as he cowers and loses the one on one battle. The Eaton of two years ago is long gone, and this one is terrible. I think our love of him when the defense was awful and sympathy during his injuries has led this board to turn blind eyes to his horrendous play. I have seen way too many comments about his strong play and not noticing him do anything wrong. I lack total confidence in his ability right now, and when Gill comes back, I think he should sit some. He needs to regain confidence in his ability and realize that if he tears his ACL or not, he'll be sitting, so he better grow some courage along the boards and improve his play.
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