Wasting Sids Talent....

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Wasting Sids Talent....

Postby panthers1788 on Fri Oct 31, 2008 8:46 am

I am not a doom and gloom kind of person, but this team has got to get a winger that can play along side Crosby. We are putting wingers on his line that should be playing on the 3rd line. I know that on this board Recchi is a joke, which I don't really understand why...he had good years in Pittsburgh, but when he played on Sid's wing he finished alot of plays. Teams are keying on Crosby and they really don't have to be worried about double teaming him when he has Dupios and Fedetenko on his line, because they won't finish alot more then they will, so teams will take their chances....If you put a good winger on his wing then that will change and room will be opened up for Crosby (Making teams take penalties, getting Sid moving in the open ice, Scoring some 5 on 5 goals...). Thinks about the wingers that have played alongside Crosby......Dupious, Fedetenko, Hlibert , Armstrong....a bunch of guys that belong on the 3rd line but the thought is that by putting them on Crosbys wing they will be All Stars. The potential of Crosby and a scoring winger being on the same line is scary.....Look what happens when you put Malkin on Sids wing. Here are my suggestions.....

1. I for one have never been a huge fan of Jordan Staal, I mean why did he make it in the league his first season and not get reassigned, for his play on the Penalty Kill and his shorthanded scoring abilities his rookie season. Since then he hasn't done anything more than another top tier third line center in the NHL could do. Third line centers are for shutting other teams top line down, Staal does this don't get me wrong (Although he takes many bad penalties along the way...) but there are other good 3rd line shut down centers out there. Trade Staal and another a D-man for a scoring winger. (AKA.... Kovalchuk, Gaborik.....) When Whitney and Gonchar come back there is going to be an overload of D-men what are you going to do with them all....in fact there is right now.....Trade Staal and Gologoski/Letang.....Our D would look like this until Gonchar and Whitney come back.....Orpik, Scuderi, Gill, Sydor, Gologoski/Letang, Eaton.....Make the move

2. Give Janne Pesonon a try....Pull him up he is a proven finisher in the Finish Elite League...I know this isn't the Finish Elite league but he can finish there so he has more of an upside than any other wingers we try to throw on Crosbys wing.
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Re: Wasting Sids Talent....

Postby KG on Fri Oct 31, 2008 8:48 am

I'll post what I just wrote in the GDT:

Something needs to be done. The team has done nothing 5 on 5 the entire year...I keep writing the same thing after every game...Hoping one of these games they could create some type of offense at even strength...Nothing yet...

It's a combination of many things. Gonchar, Whitney hurts the transition game. Satan and Fedotenko are not adequate replacements for Hossa and Malone, and Staal has not progressed and it not capable of playing top 6 minutes...
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Re: Wasting Sids Talent....

Postby AlexPKeaton on Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:02 am

We have 2 legit top 4 wingers, and a few very good 3rd liners that can play top 4 if necessary. Sure we could use another top 4 winger, but the idea that we have to get an elite 7mil+ winger just so Sid can wing the scoring title is stupid. This team is built on balanced scoring from the top 2 lines, not 1 super dominate line. The problem with the 5v5 scoring is that the system that the Pens use is getting stale, and it does not match the personnel that the Pens have.
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Re: Wasting Sids Talent....

Postby panthers1788 on Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:03 am

AlexPKeaton wrote:We have 2 legit top 4 wingers, and a few very good 3rd liners that can play top 4 if necessary. Sure we could use another top 4 winger, but the idea that we have to get an elite 7mil+ winger just so Sid can wing the scoring title is stupid. This team is built on balanced scoring from the top 2 lines, not 1 super dominate line. The problem with the 5v5 scoring is that the system that the Pens use is getting stale, and it does not match the personnel that the Pens have.


Name the top 4 wingers we have.....???
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Re: Wasting Sids Talent....

Postby Nizzy on Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:07 am

Satan, and Sykora are legit top 2 line wingers. Fedo is arguable. 2nd liner at best.

If we trade Staal + Letang + 1st rounder for a Kovalchuk then he better be 100% signed to a long term deal. We better not give up Staal for another Hossa situation.
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Re: Wasting Sids Talent....

Postby czwalga on Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:09 am

panthers1788 wrote:
AlexPKeaton wrote:We have 2 legit top 4 wingers, and a few very good 3rd liners that can play top 4 if necessary. Sure we could use another top 4 winger, but the idea that we have to get an elite 7mil+ winger just so Sid can wing the scoring title is stupid. This team is built on balanced scoring from the top 2 lines, not 1 super dominate line. The problem with the 5v5 scoring is that the system that the Pens use is getting stale, and it does not match the personnel that the Pens have.


Name the top 4 wingers we have.....???



Sykora and Satan are top 6 wingers, the problem is we dont have anyone to compliment the other side so their oppurtunities are limited and therefore they look like they suck.
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Re: Wasting Sids Talent....

Postby spi on Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:11 am

you should be careful in mentioning Recchi's name so early in a thread about wingers for Crosby I almost stopped reading it there. I agree that they need to do something, I think everyone including shero does but they are not lacking a top flight winger for Sid because of lack of trying. I think they are going to need to sooner or later trade Staal unless he can play wing but at this point they are not getting a Gaborik for Staal deal done nor could they afford it. It will need to be a young winger with unproven potential from a team that needs a center to build around.

I say try pessonen out but its not looking good right now especially when Sid has been a ghost of his former self. Last year and the season before he had scrubs on his line and he dominated large parts of games. This year he has been invisible.

It is still not panic time but they have to be thinking about all options.
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Re: Wasting Sids Talent....

Postby panthers1788 on Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:12 am

I agree with those assesments of our wingers.....Sykora and Satan...after that our wingers aren't top 4 wingers...
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Re: Wasting Sids Talent....

Postby KG on Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:16 am

With your top 2 centers named Crosby and Malkin. I would think that we wouldn't need a Gaborik/Kovalchuk to create offense.

Malkin/Sykora should just stay together, put Cooke or Fedotenko on that line (as the poor man's Malone)

In a perfect world they could have gotten someone better then Satan. But he is what they have at this point. He needs to get off this 3rd line garbage. Goal scorers need to play with playmakers. I would put Satan with Crosby and Kennedy for a while and see how that works...

If that doesn't start generating some offense...Then something else needs to be done....
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Re: Wasting Sids Talent....

Postby pens#1 on Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:21 am

Cooke Crosby Satan - i dont see why this hasnt been given a chance
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Re: Wasting Sids Talent....

Postby shmenguin on Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:22 am

the recchi thing kills this thread. i mean, you couldn't trash your own theory in a more efficient manner. kudos.

here's news...recchi wasn't that productive with sid. he had something like 13 even strength goals the year he had 68 points. which was pretty much the same amount as talbot and christensen (who weren't playing with sid by the way) he capitalized on gimme points on the power play and that's all he did. Bah! i can't believe someone played the recchi card. i'm gonna go punch a wall.
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Re: Wasting Sids Talent....

Postby darkstar57 on Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:24 am

I think the issue is that teams are starting to figure out how to stop Crosby, plain and simple. The main reason why "he who should not be named" was a perfect winger for crosby is because he could carry the puck into the offensive zone and create scoring chances himself, Satan is a top 4 winger, but he is not going to create for other players, he needs someone to pass him the puck. Hossa (Fear of not saying the name only increases fear of the name) was an dynamic player, he would fight along the boards, he would back check, he could carry the puck into the zone. If there are two players on a line that can create scoring chances it opens things up because the defense can't lock into one player. Teams know that Dupuis/Kennedy/insert third line winger name here is not going to beat them, crosby will beat them. I don't mind Satan on the top line because he is showing us he has the hands to bury it. One of the reasons i want to give Penosen a chance with crosby is because he has play making ability and can handle the puck.
Malkin doesn't need a winger like that because he has that lemieux-esq ability about him, you just need someone on his line that will bang bodies in the corner and can get him the puck (Malone replacement) and someone who isn't afraid to pull the trigger (sykora)
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Re: Wasting Sids Talent....

Postby czwalga on Fri Oct 31, 2008 9:49 am

KG wrote:With your top 2 centers named Crosby and Malkin. I would think that we wouldn't need a Gaborik/Kovalchuk to create offense.

Malkin/Sykora should just stay together, put Cooke or Fedotenko on that line (as the poor man's Malone)

In a perfect world they could have gotten someone better then Satan. But he is what they have at this point. He needs to get off this 3rd line garbage. Goal scorers need to play with playmakers. I would put Satan with Crosby and Kennedy for a while and see how that works...

If that doesn't start generating some offense...Then something else needs to be done....




This isn't adult league hockey. One player can not just completely dominate all the time without quality players to atleast help out.


Any good coach is just going to collapse on malkin and crosby (it's pretty obvious this is what teams are doing).
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Re: Wasting Sids Talent....

Postby Pitts on Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:12 am

AlexPKeaton wrote:This team is built on balanced scoring from the top 2 lines, not 1 super dominate line.

What scoring? I'm not seeing ANY scoring, let alone "balanced" scoring. Right now, this teams sucks. Crosby fights the game alone - every game.
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Re: Wasting Sids Talent....

Postby TheHammer24 on Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:16 am

It would be great if we could stockpile top ten talent -- but we can't. Look at the best teams from last year. None really had three top caliber players like so many on this board posit we should do. In fact, Pittsburgh appears to be the only team that did have three top fifteen players in the playoffs last year.

Pittsburgh - Sid, Geno, Hossa then Sykora, Malone,
Detroit - Zetts and Datsyuk, then who Franzen? Holmstrom?
Philadelhpia - None, then Richards, Carter, Gagne, Umberger
New York - Jagr, Gomez, then Straka Drury, Avery
San Jose - Thornton then Marleau, Cheechoo, Michalek
Dallas - Riberio, then none

What I am getting at, is if you are going to be successful you need guys who are not top 15 players to score. The Pens had a ton of talent last year - arguably the most in the league. And they do again this year. All the teams listed above won and were cup contenders WITHOUT three top tier players in the league. Why do the pens need another top caliber one? Satan and Sykora are fine. For the pens real problems see here viewtopic.php?f=1&t=29626
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Re: Wasting Sids Talent....

Postby AlexPKeaton on Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:31 am

Pitts wrote:
AlexPKeaton wrote:This team is built on balanced scoring from the top 2 lines, not 1 super dominate line.

What scoring? I'm not seeing ANY scoring, let alone "balanced" scoring. Right now, this teams sucks. Crosby fights the game alone - every game.


That is why we spent 8.7million on a second line center and not used that money for elite wingers.
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Re: Wasting Sids Talent....

Postby The Snapshot on Fri Oct 31, 2008 10:41 am

Sid depends on Gonchar to help him overcome the lack of great wings. He, more than any Penguin, misses Gonchar the most.

Last night, Malkin created a ton of his own shots. Sid just doesn't seem to have that same capability. On a team starved for goals right now, Malkin is by far the biggest threat - and he is not finding the twine either. Overall, I think it is more about missed opportunities than Sid not having "elite" wings. He didn't have one last year until the trade deadline.

I said it after the SJ game and I'll say it again. Goligoski struggles, this team struggles. He is trying to play the role of a veteran NHL star on D, and it is too much for him right now. He has been showing more offensively of late, but it seems that with that comes the huge gaffes that he was avoiding early on. I am not blaming him, just pointing out the facts.

Sid can play with two potato sacks, if he is given the puck with time and space available to him.
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Re: Wasting Sids Talent....

Postby Hawkeynut on Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:13 am

Didn't Rob Brown almost score 50 with Mario? I believe it is up to the superstar player to make those around him better, I haven't seen that in Crosby... not saying it won't.. it just hasn't happened.
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Re: Wasting Sids Talent....

Postby Bob McKenzie on Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:26 am

The Snapshot wrote:Sid depends on Gonchar to help him overcome the lack of great wings. He, more than any Penguin, misses Gonchar the most.

Last night, Malkin created a ton of his own shots. Sid just doesn't seem to have that same capability. On a team starved for goals right now, Malkin is by far the biggest threat - and he is not finding the twine either. Overall, I think it is more about missed opportunities than Sid not having "elite" wings. He didn't have one last year until the trade deadline.

I said it after the SJ game and I'll say it again. Goligoski struggles, this team struggles. He is trying to play the role of a veteran NHL star on D, and it is too much for him right now. He has been showing more offensively of late, but it seems that with that comes the huge gaffes that he was avoiding early on. I am not blaming him, just pointing out the facts.

Sid can play with two potato sacks, if he is given the puck with time and space available to him.


That second line center is outscoring the first line center.

That second line center would be the first line center on any other team in the league period.

Say what you say about Malkin, but he's more of a scoring threat than Crosby is.

The bottom line is, our wings have no grit and Crosby/Malkin are being smothered. They're still getting SOG but the puck's not going in.

Fedostinko should be on our third line.

I said it last night, but this team needs a Rick Tocchet circa 1992. There are only a handful of guys like that in the league and no one is going to give them up unless you give a MASSIVE overpay. I'd love to see Morrow, Brown, Doan on Sid's line, but even other depth would help.

The fact that Staal isn't scoring (and other 3rd/4th line talent) is hurting us.
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Re: Wasting Sids Talent....

Postby Bob McKenzie on Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:29 am

Hawkeynut wrote:Didn't Rob Brown almost score 50 with Mario? I believe it is up to the superstar player to make those around him better, I haven't seen that in Crosby... not saying it won't.. it just hasn't happened.


Agreed.

It's best to surround your top talent with talented guys, but look at past history of "superstars." They've been able to make other players excel and that's not the case with Sid.

My biggest issue with Sid is, and I think he's changing it a bit lately, is that he's ALWAYS looking pass first. He needs to be aggressive and shoot the puck. He creates space/plays for himself but will look pass first.
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Re: Wasting Sids Talent....

Postby KG on Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:31 am

czwalga wrote:
KG wrote:With your top 2 centers named Crosby and Malkin. I would think that we wouldn't need a Gaborik/Kovalchuk to create offense.

Malkin/Sykora should just stay together, put Cooke or Fedotenko on that line (as the poor man's Malone)

In a perfect world they could have gotten someone better then Satan. But he is what they have at this point. He needs to get off this 3rd line garbage. Goal scorers need to play with playmakers. I would put Satan with Crosby and Kennedy for a while and see how that works...

If that doesn't start generating some offense...Then something else needs to be done....




This isn't adult league hockey. One player can not just completely dominate all the time without quality players to atleast help out.


Any good coach is just going to collapse on malkin and crosby (it's pretty obvious this is what teams are doing).


The Rangers are like 10-2 and they don't have 1 elite player offensively. The pens have 2...Is it system?
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Re: Wasting Sids Talent....

Postby Bob McKenzie on Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:36 am

KG wrote:
czwalga wrote:
KG wrote:With your top 2 centers named Crosby and Malkin. I would think that we wouldn't need a Gaborik/Kovalchuk to create offense.

Malkin/Sykora should just stay together, put Cooke or Fedotenko on that line (as the poor man's Malone)

In a perfect world they could have gotten someone better then Satan. But he is what they have at this point. He needs to get off this 3rd line garbage. Goal scorers need to play with playmakers. I would put Satan with Crosby and Kennedy for a while and see how that works...

If that doesn't start generating some offense...Then something else needs to be done....




This isn't adult league hockey. One player can not just completely dominate all the time without quality players to atleast help out.


Any good coach is just going to collapse on malkin and crosby (it's pretty obvious this is what teams are doing).


The Rangers are like 10-2 and they don't have 1 elite player offensively. The pens have 2...Is it system?


Henrik Lundqvist, not to mention a nice supporting cast of Gomez, Drury, Naslund, Voros, and a very underrated Steve Dubinsky.
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Re: Wasting Sids Talent....

Postby brwi on Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:46 am

Take away the PP goals by Satan and then Sid/Malkin and you have nothing right now. 5-on-5 play the Pens are simply not scoring as the depth players are not producing the odd goal or strong offensive play. The D is trying with everything they have to just hold up their own end of the ice and expecting them to pick up the slack left offensively from Goncahr-Whits is very unrealistic.

Looks to me like some Stanley Cup hangover where mostly everything the Pens were doing was working and everyone was supremely confident and on a roll. Now, there are new parts to the machine, missing parts, and things aren't running smoothly at all. The whole team from 7th d-man to Sid/Malkin have to step it up and give a honest 60min effort of work, work, work. Pretty ain't working. Skill ain't producing enough. Pressuring the puck every inch of the ice and simplifying the game might.

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Re: Wasting Sids Talent....

Postby penny lane on Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:47 am

Hawkeynut wrote:Didn't Rob Brown almost score 50 with Mario? I believe it is up to the superstar player to make those around him better, I haven't seen that in Crosby... not saying it won't.. it just hasn't happened.



In Sid' s rookie year he got Colby and A Hilbert contracts.
Sidney's 2nd year with roberts/recchi/malone/geno wings~ he did a lot himself.
IN a perfect world with people healthy(defense) centers then have more time to create in the offensive zone.
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Re: Wasting Sids Talent....

Postby KG on Fri Oct 31, 2008 11:51 am

Malkin/Sykora should just stay together, put Cooke or Fedotenko on that line (as the poor man's Malone)

In a perfect world they could have gotten someone better then Satan. But he is what they have at this point. He needs to get off this 3rd line garbage. Goal scorers need to play with playmakers. I would put Satan with Crosby and Kennedy for a while and see how that works...

If that doesn't start generating some offense...Then something else needs to be done....[/quote]



This isn't adult league hockey. One player can not just completely dominate all the time without quality players to atleast help out.


Any good coach is just going to collapse on malkin and crosby (it's pretty obvious this is what teams are doing).[/quote]

The Rangers are like 10-2 and they don't have 1 elite player offensively. The pens have 2...Is it system?[/quote]

Henrik Lundqvist, not to mention a nice supporting cast of Gomez, Drury, Naslund, Voros, and a very underrated Steve Dubinsky.[/quote]

Penguins roster is better then the Rangers. MAF is not far behind Lundqvist. Even if Lundqvist is better, I would think Crosby/Malkin would put them over the top...
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