Jordan Selke

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Jordan Selke

Postby dogwithshftyeyes on Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:20 am

another -2
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Re: Jordan Selke

Postby bakeman81 on Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:39 am

Question No. 2: Which is the dumbest stat in hockey - the fact that assists have the same value as goals, giveaways, plus/minus or shooting percentage?

John Tortorella: Plus/minus. It's probably the most talked-about stat and probably the most useless stat. Too many variables come into play here with coaches putting players into different situations in a game, other players making mistakes that cost you, or bad goals. There's so many different things that come into play. It's a useless stat.

http://www.tsn.ca/story/print/?id=254964
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Re: Jordan Selke

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:42 am

John Tortorella is the man for so many different reasons.
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Re: Jordan Selke

Postby bhaw on Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:44 am

Idoit40fans wrote:John Tortorella is the man for so many different reasons.


He is my favorite coach turned commentator, with Billick a close 2nd.
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Re: Jordan Selke

Postby wallflower on Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:44 am

bakeman81 wrote:It's a useless stat.

I always chuckle when people use +/- to try to make their point that a player they don't like sucks. It's such a desperate move.
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Re: Jordan Selke

Postby bhaw on Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:46 am

wallflower wrote:
bakeman81 wrote:It's a useless stat.

I always chuckle when people use +/- to try to make their point that a player they don't like sucks. It's such a desperate move.


I think it means a lot more to a defenseman than a forward. I agree it's totally useless for a forward, but as a player, I found it to be pretty telling as a defenseman. I think it's an over-rated stat for forwards, and because of the backlash for that, it becomes downplayed for the defense.
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Re: Jordan Selke

Postby wallflower on Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:49 am

bhaw wrote:
wallflower wrote:
bakeman81 wrote:It's a useless stat.

I always chuckle when people use +/- to try to make their point that a player they don't like sucks. It's such a desperate move.


I think it means a lot more to a defenseman than a forward. I agree it's totally useless for a forward, but as a player, I found it to be pretty telling as a defenseman. I think it's an over-rated stat for forwards, and because of the backlash for that, it becomes downplayed for the defense.

I think +/- can be "useful" when put into context of what actually happened on the play that got the players on the ice that minus. However, most people who use the stat, don't [because it often doesn't support their argument].

I think if a player's +/- is really high or really low, it's more telling, but most of the time it isn't.
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Re: Jordan Selke

Postby meecrofilm on Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:51 am

bakeman81 wrote:Question No. 2: Which is the dumbest stat in hockey - the fact that assists have the same value as goals, giveaways, plus/minus or shooting percentage?

http://www.tsn.ca/story/print/?id=254964


TSN = fail. I wouldn't expect them to think something as idiotic as that. WTF. There's nothing dumb about that.
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Re: Jordan Selke

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:52 am

wallflower wrote:I think if a player's +/- is really high or really low, it's more telling, but most of the time it isn't.

I think it can be useful when comparing teammates, but other than that, its worthless in any situation. Just to give you an idea, Jay Bouwmeester is a career -28.
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Re: Jordan Selke

Postby bhaw on Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:54 am

I think as a player, you take it more personally. I NEVER want to be on for a goal, and if I was, I can use it to find something I should have been doing to help prevent it.

As a coach, I used it to check for trends... for example if a line was -4 in a 5-4 game and another line was +3, I had a good idea of who was going to be out there for the last shift.

You are right though... in the right context, it is a very good stat. If not put into context, it sucks. The absolute worst is when someone makes a bad change, and you jump on as they score. I always hated that part!
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Re: Jordan Selke

Postby bhaw on Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:55 am

Idoit40fans wrote:
wallflower wrote:I think if a player's +/- is really high or really low, it's more telling, but most of the time it isn't.

I think it can be useful when comparing teammates, but other than that, its worthless in any situation. Just to give you an idea, Jay Bouwmeester is a career -28.



Well, Jaybouw is definitely no JMel (Melichar)... who had an assist tonight btw! He's not far behind Malone :wink:
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Re: Jordan Selke

Postby cheesesteakwithegg on Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:59 am

honestly, id trade staal right now before everyone else figures out he wont be anything more than a 3rd line center.
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Re: Jordan Selke

Postby wallflower on Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:59 am

Idoit40fans wrote:
wallflower wrote:I think if a player's +/- is really high or really low, it's more telling, but most of the time it isn't.

I think it can be useful when comparing teammates, but other than that, its worthless in any situation. Just to give you an idea, Jay Bouwmeester is a career -28.

And that's another problem with it - good players on bad teams suffer.

Ugh. I'm anti +/-.
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Re: Jordan Selke

Postby wallflower on Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:01 am

bhaw wrote:As a coach, I used it to check for trends... for example if a line was -4 in a 5-4 game and another line was +3, I had a good idea of who was going to be out there for the last shift.

To me, this seems like the only thing it would legitimately be useful for - coaches.
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Re: Jordan Selke

Postby SolidSnake on Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:06 am

Jordan, all we are saying is give us a goal.
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Re: Jordan Selke

Postby farnham16 on Fri Nov 07, 2008 1:53 am

Worst passer of the puck I've seen in a long time.
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Re: Jordan Selke

Postby DocEmrick on Fri Nov 07, 2008 5:44 am

I'd like to see him traded, but not for the reasons that most here would (AKA Unsastisfaction). I think that on this team he really has nowhere to go, especially with Sid and Malkin lined up to be King and Prince. Staal's potential is still there. Just look at how he played in the playoffs, namely the Flyers series. I think that trading him and his "high valued" price tag will allow us to fill in around our core. Only problem is RS is convinced Staal is a part of that core.
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Re: Jordan Selke

Postby Three Stars on Fri Nov 07, 2008 7:51 am

It would be neat to see a graph of the "LGP Player Perception +/-" for several players over time. Now there's a useless stat.
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Re: Jordan Selke

Postby Jim on Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:29 am

Can you truely be considered for the Selke when you turn the puck over just about every time you corss into the offensive zone? Granted, you might be really good defensively, but does consistantly handing the puck back to the opposition negate that at all?
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Re: Jordan Selke

Postby booboo on Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:46 am

bhaw wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
wallflower wrote:I think if a player's +/- is really high or really low, it's more telling, but most of the time it isn't.

I think it can be useful when comparing teammates, but other than that, its worthless in any situation. Just to give you an idea, Jay Bouwmeester is a career -28.



Well, Jaybouw is definitely no JMel (Melichar)... who had an assist tonight btw! He's not far behind Malone :wink:


They are in a scoring race.
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Re: Jordan Selke

Postby czwalga on Fri Nov 07, 2008 8:56 am

It's amazing how bad his hands are. He's just better than average nothing special as a defensive forward. When he has the puck its pitiful.
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Re: Jordan Selke

Postby Penspal on Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:21 am

It is my opinion too that +/- is not as accurate a measure as some other statistics. Its still a useful measure, but the degree to which it reflects individual play needs to be softened.

The whole lets kick dirt on Staal bandwagon needs to be summarized.

I look back over the post of negative posters of Jordan staal. I see people admitting to drinking and swearing during a game, and then coming on and posting about the game. No offiense to you, but other than getting whatever frustrations you have off your chest on your chosen whipping boy, your not making any sense.

The kid scored 29 goals as an 18 year old.
The kid was S T E L L A R in a defensive role in the SC run and Finals

He is a monster that will get better, you need to get off his back. Many players in this league go through slumps, even bad seasons. His brother Eric had a sub par season compared to his other seasons.

The fact is, there is still tremendous upside to Staal. The Pens have the luxury of being able to let him develop.

The team is winning,
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Re: Jordan Selke

Postby Why So Serious? on Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:24 am

Penspal wrote:It is my opinion too that +/- is not as accurate a measure as some other statistics. Its still a useful measure, but the degree to which it reflects individual play needs to be softened.

The whole lets kick dirt on Staal bandwagon needs to be summarized.

I look back over the post of negative posters of Jordan staal. I see people admitting to drinking and swearing during a game, and then coming on and posting about the game. No offiense to you, but other than getting whatever frustrations you have off your chest on your chosen whipping boy, your not making any sense.

The kid scored 29 goals as an 18 year old.
The kid was S T E L L A R in a defensive role in the SC run and Finals

He is a monster that will get better, you need to get off his back. Many players in this league go through slumps, even bad seasons. His brother Eric had a sub par season compared to his other seasons.

The fact is, there is still tremendous upside to Staal. The Pens have the luxury of being able to let him develop.

The team is winning,


This, exactly.
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Re: Jordan Selke

Postby Nizzy on Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:44 am

Penspal wrote:It is my opinion too that +/- is not as accurate a measure as some other statistics. Its still a useful measure, but the degree to which it reflects individual play needs to be softened.

The whole lets kick dirt on Staal bandwagon needs to be summarized.

I look back over the post of negative posters of Jordan staal. I see people admitting to drinking and swearing during a game, and then coming on and posting about the game. No offiense to you, but other than getting whatever frustrations you have off your chest on your chosen whipping boy, your not making any sense.

The kid scored 29 goals as an 18 year old.
The kid was S T E L L A R in a defensive role in the SC run and Finals

He is a monster that will get better, you need to get off his back. Many players in this league go through slumps, even bad seasons. His brother Eric had a sub par season compared to his other seasons.

The fact is, there is still tremendous upside to Staal. The Pens have the luxury of being able to let him develop.

The team is winning,


penspal, I agree with you and love all that. I am a huge Jordan fan.

People need to stop hating.
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Re: Jordan Selke

Postby czwalga on Fri Nov 07, 2008 9:47 am

Nizzy wrote:
Penspal wrote:It is my opinion too that +/- is not as accurate a measure as some other statistics. Its still a useful measure, but the degree to which it reflects individual play needs to be softened.

The whole lets kick dirt on Staal bandwagon needs to be summarized.

I look back over the post of negative posters of Jordan staal. I see people admitting to drinking and swearing during a game, and then coming on and posting about the game. No offiense to you, but other than getting whatever frustrations you have off your chest on your chosen whipping boy, your not making any sense.

The kid scored 29 goals as an 18 year old.
The kid was S T E L L A R in a defensive role in the SC run and Finals

He is a monster that will get better, you need to get off his back. Many players in this league go through slumps, even bad seasons. His brother Eric had a sub par season compared to his other seasons.

The fact is, there is still tremendous upside to Staal. The Pens have the luxury of being able to let him develop.

The team is winning,


penspal, I agree with you and love all that. I am a huge Jordan fan.

People need to stop hating.



Why do they need to stop hating, because you have a certain man crush for him? He's not going to fit on this team.

I've never been a huge fan, never believed the hype, whether i'm right or wrong he doesnt fit on this team either way.
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