A win is a win...?

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A win is a win...?

Postby Jesse on Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:47 pm

I woke up this morning and started to peruse the internet for some good discussion regarding an awesome November by the Penguins. I was greeted by a thread on another board that, in all honesty, clamored for Michel Therrien to be fired, stating that it was the best thing for the team at this point in the year.

Face, meet palm.

Regardless, looking at the Penguins November schedule and reflecting on the great moments we saw, I ask this:

Does the way the Penguins won many of their games factor into your overall opinion about the success of the month and where we are now?

The Penguins are getting 2 points out of a lot of games that could easily have gone the other way. Cause for concern, or cause for more confidence? Obviously taking into consideration the fact that we're currently without Gonchar and Whitney, in addition to our starting goaltender.

Discuss.
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Re: A win is a win...?

Postby Mongoose87 on Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:48 pm

Jesse wrote:I woke up this morning and started to peruse the internet for some good discussion regarding an awesome November by the Penguins. I was greeted by a thread on another board that, in all honesty, clamored for Michel Therrien to be fired, stating that it was the best thing for the team at this point in the year.

Face, meet palm.

Regardless, looking at the Penguins November schedule and reflecting on the great moments we saw, I ask this:

Does the way the Penguins won many of their games factor into your overall opinion about the success of the month and where we are now?

The Penguins are getting 2 points out of a lot of games that could easily have gone the other way. Cause for concern, or cause for more confidence? Obviously taking into consideration the fact that we're currently without Gonchar and Whitney, in addition to our starting goaltender.

Discuss.


Wins are wins. This is what matters.
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Re: A win is a win...?

Postby Bob McKenzie on Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:52 pm

Good question.

Regardless of the Pens record, they still need to work on 2 things IMO:

1) The powerplay. The issues have went on far too long (especially the 5 on 3's) for it to be the players fault at this point IMO. I think if the players are still throwing the puck around and not shooting, there is an issue: see hatred for Yeo.

2) 3rd period intensity. The Pens have lost 8 points this year by shutting down in the 3rd period and forgetting that you still need to play offense when you have the lead. Bourque mentioned this after the game last night that he thought the Pens played a full 60 minute game and they need to start doing this more often.
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Re: A win is a win...?

Postby Henry Hank on Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:52 pm

Unless you think the PP will continue to be in the bottom half of the league and the team will continue to blow leads/play from behind, cause for major optimism. They're one of the top five teams in the league in terms of point percentage but have plenty of room for improvement in several areas. Plus they're dealing with some major injury losses. They spent most of November without their starting goalie and their top two D. The fact that they're doing as well as they are despite all this shows how great this team is.

Calling for Therrien's head is so out of style it's not even funny. The funny thing about the Therrien bashing looking back will be that we might be watching the best coaching performance by a Pens coach ever. For all the bad coaches this team has had and in general the short shelf life of the NHL coach, it's hard to understand how anyone can still hold on to the notion that Therrien isn't the right guy.
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Re: A win is a win...?

Postby Jesse on Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:57 pm

Good responses. I tend to agree with you guys. There is room for improvement, but when you're not playing your best hockey and still winning, it should strike fear into the heart of pretty much every other team. HH is right about the PP, these things ebb and flow in an 82 game season. It will soon start to flow.

@ Henry Hank - I see a lot of arguments stating that Crosby and Malkin aren't getting enough freedom offensively. That's the point. Free-flow hockey and a wide open style rarely works consistently, if at all. MT has these guys reigned in, playing the way he wants, which is in the defensive zone.

Not to turn this discussion into one revolving around coaching, but I just wanted to make that point.
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Re: A win is a win...?

Postby LeopardLetang on Sun Nov 30, 2008 2:59 pm

cause for confidence, i believe. the pens have become a team that can turn it on when they need to. this comes from playoff success. they've learned how to play winning playoff hockey and can bring this effort and concentration to a mid-season game.

someone that doesn't watch much noted how slow the islander game looked compared to the playoffs last year. obviously. and think how the pens weren't able to match ottawa two years ago. a lot of it is skill, yes. but a lot is work ethic, and system perfection/focus, and even belief. when they start playing like they had to to match detroit in the cup, can a team like the islanders keep up? of course not. and this keeps being proved this year with all the come from behind wins.
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Re: A win is a win...?

Postby Henry Hank on Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:00 pm

@ Henry Hank - I see a lot of arguments stating that Crosby and Malkin aren't getting enough freedom offensively. That's the point. Free-flow hockey and a wide open style rarely works consistently, if at all. MT has these guys reigned in, playing the way he wants, which is in the defensive zone.


LOL. Such an ignorant argument. I mean, never mind that the Pens have still be one of the highest scoring teams in the league under Therrien and have seen Crosby win a scoring title, Malkin nearly win one, and both of them at the top of the league right now. Anyone's that's followed this team before the recent success would know that going offense only isn't going to win you anything. They finally play a team concept on D and they're finally a legit Cup contender again. It isn't a coincidence.
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Re: A win is a win...?

Postby bhaw on Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:04 pm

The Pens can't and won't blow out every team they play. It's ridiculous to expect that.

The Pens are missing their 2 best puck moving defensemen and top 2 PP defensemen. Yeah, there is a lot of talent out there, but a couple weeks before the season, they had to scrap everything they built their PP on for 2 years and start over.

Half of the Pens' forwards are new to the team (Dupuis was with us at the end of last year, but he hasn't even been with the team a full year). The team expected to have TOO many defensemen on their roster, but due to injuries had to stick in a rookie who wasn't ready for the NHL, move a 2nd year Letang to top pairing, and overhaul the defensive depth chart where the bottom pairing guys have to play 2nd pairing minutes.

All that being said, the Pens are 2nd in the division (only behind a team that has 4 more games played) and have the 5th best team in the whole NHL points wise.

There are people out there who have the ever burning ax to grind with MT. Unfortunately, they are the outspoken bloggers and "writers" who get to publish their crap about how MT "isn't an x's and o's coach" and how all of the team's shortcomings are due to MT but all of their successes are b/c he has the best players. I actually had a conversation with one of those "writers" after the season who brought up all these points and it is absolutely ridiculous. NONE of those who want MT fired have a single reasonable option for MT's replacement.

My question is this: if you believe that firing MT is in the team's best interest right now, who do you replace him with and how do you get the team to continue winning in a mid-season change? Also, what does that tell your players? Regardless of your output, management has no problem taking away your spot on the team.

In my honest opinion, those who can sit there and actually say that this team needs major change are doing it simply to stir up controversy (the new fad in "journalism") or they don't have any concept for the game.
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Re: A win is a win...?

Postby Jesse on Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:07 pm

bhaw wrote:The Pens can't and won't blow out every team they play. It's ridiculous to expect that.

The Pens are missing their 2 best puck moving defensemen and top 2 PP defensemen. Yeah, there is a lot of talent out there, but a couple weeks before the season, they had to scrap everything they built their PP on for 2 years and start over.

Half of the Pens' forwards are new to the team (Dupuis was with us at the end of last year, but he hasn't even been with the team a full year). The team expected to have TOO many defensemen on their roster, but due to injuries had to stick in a rookie who wasn't ready for the NHL, move a 2nd year Letang to top pairing, and overhaul the defensive depth chart where the bottom pairing guys have to play 2nd pairing minutes.

All that being said, the Pens are 2nd in the division (only behind a team that has 4 more games played) and have the 5th best team in the whole NHL points wise.

There are people out there who have the ever burning ax to grind with MT. Unfortunately, they are the outspoken bloggers and "writers" who get to publish their crap about how MT "isn't an x's and o's coach" and how all of the team's shortcomings are due to MT but all of their successes are b/c he has the best players. I actually had a conversation with one of those "writers" after the season who brought up all these points and it is absolutely ridiculous. NONE of those who want MT fired have a single reasonable option for MT's replacement.

My question is this: if you believe that firing MT is in the team's best interest right now, who do you replace him with and how do you get the team to continue winning in a mid-season change? Also, what does that tell your players? Regardless of your output, management has no problem taking away your spot on the team.

In my honest opinion, those who can sit there and actually say that this team needs major change are doing it simply to stir up controversy (the new fad in "journalism") or they don't have any concept for the game.


Good post. I agree with many of the points. I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility that when Gonchar/Whitney return, the team gets a some familiarity on the wing position and the power-play comes together that the Penguins could go on another record setting run.
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Re: A win is a win...?

Postby meecrofilm on Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:07 pm

I agree. Although I still lost some respect for this board after the "What is wrong with Crosby?" thread. I mean... slump? ....And now he's out of it.? The things people said.... as well as all the Fleury hate back in the day and trade Malkin and trade Staal etc.

I mean, it's fine to criticise. I agree, the PP needs to get out of its funk and the Pens still looked a little shaky in the 3rd last night, but IMO there is wayyy way too much of the "What Have You Done For Me Lately?" syndrome around here. Pens could lose the next two and I'd bet there'd some realllly harsh words for some of the coachers and players responsible.

In short, more peeps needs more perspective, says I.
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Re: A win is a win...?

Postby Jesse on Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:10 pm

The season is a marathon. It has it's ebbs and flows. I said it before, this is not a sport where you sit down and judge each game as if it were the end all, be all of the season. If you want a sport where that's a good strategy, watch college football.

I think there are a lot of people that would be better served to seriously judge the team in 5 game segments. I never see anyone discussing that.
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Re: A win is a win...?

Postby bhaw on Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:15 pm

Jesse wrote:The season is a marathon. It has it's ebbs and flows. I said it before, this is not a sport where you sit down and judge each game as if it were the end all, be all of the season. If you want a sport where that's a good strategy, watch college football.

I think there are a lot of people that would be better served to seriously judge the team in 5 game segments. I never see anyone discussing that.


Exactly. And it's not to say the team is perfect and should just sit back and let things come to them.

Yes, they need to improve the PP. But as bad as it has been the past few weeks, I would not be shocked if they came out and scored 4 PP goals in their next game.

It would also be nice to see some more killer instinct, which you saw last game. When you have a team down, put them away. Having a healthy and on fire Crosby will help that. When the PP comes back on, it will help with that as well.
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Re: A win is a win...?

Postby mjg on Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:16 pm

bhaw wrote:The Pens can't and won't blow out every team they play. It's ridiculous to expect that.

The Pens are missing their 2 best puck moving defensemen and top 2 PP defensemen. Yeah, there is a lot of talent out there, but a couple weeks before the season, they had to scrap everything they built their PP on for 2 years and start over.

Half of the Pens' forwards are new to the team (Dupuis was with us at the end of last year, but he hasn't even been with the team a full year). The team expected to have TOO many defensemen on their roster, but due to injuries had to stick in a rookie who wasn't ready for the NHL, move a 2nd year Letang to top pairing, and overhaul the defensive depth chart where the bottom pairing guys have to play 2nd pairing minutes.

All that being said, the Pens are 2nd in the division (only behind a team that has 4 more games played) and have the 5th best team in the whole NHL points wise.

There are people out there who have the ever burning ax to grind with MT. Unfortunately, they are the outspoken bloggers and "writers" who get to publish their crap about how MT "isn't an x's and o's coach" and how all of the team's shortcomings are due to MT but all of their successes are b/c he has the best players. I actually had a conversation with one of those "writers" after the season who brought up all these points and it is absolutely ridiculous. NONE of those who want MT fired have a single reasonable option for MT's replacement.

My question is this: if you believe that firing MT is in the team's best interest right now, who do you replace him with and how do you get the team to continue winning in a mid-season change? Also, what does that tell your players? Regardless of your output, management has no problem taking away your spot on the team.

In my honest opinion, those who can sit there and actually say that this team needs major change are doing it simply to stir up controversy (the new fad in "journalism") or they don't have any concept for the game.


All of this, plus winning close games gets the team mentally ready for the tough grind of the playoffs. So, in a lot of ways a win now is a win-win.
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Re: A win is a win...?

Postby bhaw on Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:24 pm

And a side benefit is that although Goligoski isn't NHL ready right now to stay long-term, the Pens are where they are and Goligoski has gotten valuable playing time. He won't have as many rookie jitters when he does have a permanent spot on the defensive line up. It was also good to find out what he needs to work on so he can take it back with him to WBS. Of course, maybe he'll work some issues out between now and when Whitney is ready.

MT has a lot of guys over-performing right now on the defensive side of the puck. They've found a great 3rd line. Once they start getting some more consistent secondary scoring for Sykora and Satan, I can't see there being too many games with offensive struggle.
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Re: A win is a win...?

Postby CKA24 on Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:31 pm

It will (and should) never be the case where a team has nothing to improve upon. Good teams find what they need to improve and do so.

The Pens realize what they need to do (improve on the PP, don't give up leads in the 3rd, stop continually getting down that fuels a 3rd period comeback, etc...), and they will soon. Thanksgiving is really the time of year when teams start to gel. Look for that in the coming weeks...
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Re: A win is a win...?

Postby Pens4Life on Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:42 pm

what else we need to improve you guys already told everything.. I will just say that MT is one of the best coaches that this franchise had and thats it.. Yeo should go.
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Re: A win is a win...?

Postby Bowser on Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:46 pm

I don't know how anyone could be disappointed at this point in the season with Gonchar and Whitney out all year, an average producing power-play, an improved penalty-kill, little goal scoring by Sykora, and a slow start for Crosby. The last two games, Crosby has become much more assertive on the ice by owning the puck (i.e. - taking it to the house) so that's an improvement this team needed since there is little hope for Shero buy a luxury winger in a salary cap world.

Over the next two months before the February/March drive into the playoffs, it would be nice to see some steady improvements such as the healthy return by Gonchar/Whitney, improved scoring depth with results from Sykora, Fedotenko, and Satan, and a power-play that actually scores in the 20-25% range.
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Re: A win is a win...?

Postby pens_CT on Sun Nov 30, 2008 3:58 pm

Bowser wrote:Over the next two months before the February/March drive into the playoffs, it would be nice to see some steady improvements such as the healthy return by Gonchar/Whitney, improved scoring depth with results from Sykora, Fedotenko, and Satan, and a power-play that actually scores in the 20-25% range.
I think that Shero will be looking closely at Sykora, Fedotanko, and Satan to see whether they can provide us with enough secondary scoring to make a long playoff run. If not then I would expect a move (not a Hossa size trade) before the trade deadline.
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Re: A win is a win...?

Postby bringitonhome on Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:00 pm

This same thing happened to the pens 2 years ago. It seemed that every other game went into overtime and then a shootout.
We probably wouldnt have this problem if the pens could score on the power plays they have.

As long as the Pens make the playoffs, I wouldnt worry.
Last edited by bringitonhome on Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A win is a win...?

Postby Henry Hank on Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:02 pm

I think that Shero will be looking closely at Sykora, Fedotanko, and Satan to see whether they can provide us with enough secondary scoring to make a long playoff run. If not then I would expect a move (not a Hossa size trade) before the trade deadline.


I think they should look into it either way. This is a prime opportunity to make a run at the Cup before a possible cap crunch next season. If they can add a solid top six type without giving up a whole lot, they should do it just for the depth. Prospal last year was a second tier type of acquisition and barely cost the Flyers anything - a second rounder and a decent young player. The Pens are in a position to put their second rounder in play this year since they own Tampa's third. The difference between the Pens' second and the Lightning's third could be as little as one draft spot potentially. I think a second and a decent prospect like Grant is a good starting point to try and get someone like Antropov.
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Re: A win is a win...?

Postby pens_CT on Sun Nov 30, 2008 4:57 pm

Henry Hank wrote:
I think that Shero will be looking closely at Sykora, Fedotanko, and Satan to see whether they can provide us with enough secondary scoring to make a long playoff run. If not then I would expect a move (not a Hossa size trade) before the trade deadline.


I think they should look into it either way. This is a prime opportunity to make a run at the Cup before a possible cap crunch next season. If they can add a solid top six type without giving up a whole lot, they should do it just for the depth. Prospal last year was a second tier type of acquisition and barely cost the Flyers anything - a second rounder and a decent young player. The Pens are in a position to put their second rounder in play this year since they own Tampa's third. The difference between the Pens' second and the Lightning's third could be as little as one draft spot potentially. I think a second and a decent prospect like Grant is a good starting point to try and get someone like Antropov.
I coud see a trade like this due to the organiztional strength on defensive prospects. If Shero feels that contract talks with Staal are going nowhere fast, then I could see a bigger trade coming. It's unlkely that Shero would shop Staal for any other reason than his potential contract cost next year. Taking a gamble and seeing whether another team might offer an inflated offer sheet doesn't seem like a wise move based on where this team is currently in their development cycle. If given a choice between getting a player(s) who can help this team win a cup in the next two to three years, or getting draft picks who may or may not help until four years down the road there doesn't seem to be much of a choice.
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Re: A win is a win...?

Postby Henry Hank on Sun Nov 30, 2008 5:52 pm

I agree that's the only way they would trade Staal, but I don't think it's a concern anymore. He's playing well enough that they don't need to fret about giving him a long-term deal. Reportedly, they want to sign him and more importantly he really wants it to get done. In terms of making a Cup run this year, I think he'll be very valuable anyway. His line has been consistently effective over the last month. That strength down the middle is unmatched in the league.
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Re: A win is a win...?

Postby Eismann on Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:01 pm

A win isn't a win anymore, not when there are so many losing teams getting the loser point. I still maintain, without stats to back this up, that over the course of 82 games the "shoulda-wons" and "shoulda-losts" about even out for a decent-to-good team (e.g., losing in regulation to WASH with a 3-goal lead == Beating DET after trailing by 3 in the third).

That said, if we're keeping an eye toward playoffs, I'm loving the fact that this team is simply never out of games and can rally and win, even though the prognosis is bleak. Says as much to me about their collective spine as it does their talent. I'll take a team with that ability in a 7-game series.
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Re: A win is a win...?

Postby Idoit40fans on Sun Nov 30, 2008 6:03 pm

Yeah a win is a win when its in regulation. As far as quality of wins goes, if we're ignoring when it occurs, then yes a win is a win. Unless its exhibition, then I want to see a quality win with quality goals while watching with quality friends.
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Re: A win is a win...?

Postby littlemoonboot on Sun Nov 30, 2008 8:43 pm

I'm not all that impressed with Yeo but to call for Therrien's firing when we were 9-2-1 this month with injuries is absolutely ridiculous. (Who would replace him, anyway? Melrose? :lol: )
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