speculating on the cap numbers

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Re: speculating on the cap numbers

Postby pensfan20 on Sat Dec 06, 2008 10:48 pm

Am i the only one that believes that Gonchar will end his career here? I believe that he will, he has stated that he loves it here. And now rooming with Geno has givin him more then just money as a reward. Also, by him finishing his career here, i believe he will take a little paycut next contract. Which would mean that either Whit, Letang or GoGo, would have to ...well..Go Go. As of this summer, i do believe that Whit would have the best trade value. His potential and great contract would make him a very valuble asset to many teams. Then you have Gonch teach Letang and GoGo, that i believe have plus sides to their over all game. (if onlly that they show more potential now than Whit did at this time of his career).
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Re: speculating on the cap numbers

Postby kovyman1127 on Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:44 pm

Why So Serious? wrote:As far as I'm concerned, Jordan Staal is a 20 year old with a 29 goal season already under his belt. And has 9 goals and 14 points through 26 games, while being payed at the league minimum.


Yeah....44 points over 82 games...HE'S TEARING UP THE LEAGUE!!! The 29 goal season by everyone including Staal himself he admited was an aberration.....b/c Staal never scored that way....even in Junior. It probably did more to hinder him than anything else as far as pressure/development. Alexander Daigle once scored 26 goals in the NHL too.

The problem that I have with Staal isn't so much with Staal himself...I think the kid tries hard. My problem is with all those, including the SB's (Staal Believer's) on this board that think he deserves 5 million dollars a year and talk about him as the 2nd coming of Bobby Holik (in his prime).

I have laid out the evidence:

Jesus...just go on NHL.com one day to the "play by play" section...do a search for "Staal" in the find command on your browser and look on the next line and it will have an opposing players name followed by "takeaway" time after time. Then every other hit on Staal's name you will also see "shot...wide of net". Do you guys think that this is conspiracy by NHL.com?

His hands are slow, he has no vision, he isn't physical, he gets muscled off the puck WAY too easily for his size. His only saving grace is that he is "ok" on the PK. The best quote that I heard by a writer recently states that "his next contract should be laden with incentives...for things like completing a simple pass." People are starting to catch on...and it ain't just me.....just hope RS realizes this before he signs him long term. The kid has played almost 200 games in the NHL...I think it's fair to lay it at his feet now.

I will do you SB's a favor...cause it's going to take years to convince you guys that you are wrong....I will not address this issue anymore on LGP.com....cause you guys see the glass as half full. I respect that...but trust me...you have already seen the best of JS.
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Re: speculating on the cap numbers

Postby Why So Serious? on Sat Dec 06, 2008 11:55 pm

kovyman1127 wrote:
Why So Serious? wrote:As far as I'm concerned, Jordan Staal is a 20 year old with a 29 goal season already under his belt. And has 9 goals and 14 points through 26 games, while being payed at the league minimum.


Yeah....44 points over 82 games...HE'S TEARING UP THE LEAGUE!!! The 29 goal season by everyone including Staal himself he admited was an aberration.....b/c Staal never scored that way....even in Junior. It probably did more to hinder him than anything else as far as pressure/development. Alexander Daigle once scored 26 goals in the NHL too.

The problem that I have with Staal isn't so much with Staal himself...I think the kid tries hard. My problem is with all those, including the SB's (Staal Believer's) on this board that think he deserves 5 million dollars a year and talk about him as the 2nd coming of Bobby Holik (in his prime).

I have laid out the evidence:

Jesus...just go on NHL.com one day to the "play by play" section...do a search for "Staal" in the find command on your browser and look on the next line and it will have an opposing players name followed by "takeaway" time after time. Then every other hit on Staal's name you will also see "shot...wide of net". Do you guys think that this is conspiracy by NHL.com?

His hands are slow, he has no vision, he isn't physical, he gets muscled off the puck WAY too easily for his size. His only saving grace is that he is "ok" on the PK. The best quote that I heard by a writer recently states that "his next contract should be laden with incentives...for things like completing a simple pass." People are starting to catch on...and it ain't just me.....just hope RS realizes this before he signs him long term. The kid has played almost 200 games in the NHL...I think it's fair to lay it at his feet now.

I will do you SB's a favor...cause it's going to take years to convince you guys that you are wrong....I will not address this issue anymore on LGP.com....cause you guys see the glass as half full. I respect that...but trust me...you have already seen the best of JS.


Yea...you're exactly right when you say that we've seen the best of Jordan Staal. You know...since he's 20 years old and all. I mean, I guess he is past his prime and everything. AT 20 YEARS OLD.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Not all 19-20 year olds are going to be absolutely gifted with offensive talent like Geno and Sid. Sometimes it takes time, particularly in Staal's case. He is an NHL power forward, a position that takes some time to fully develop. I'm not saying he deserves 5 mil a year or anything, but I think he does deserve a fairly decent contract. Especially if he develops into something we all, including Ray Shero, believe he can be.

Please...I want you to stop elaborating on this issue. Thank God. Cause I don't think you realize how ridiculous you sound. I think you would be doing this whole board (SB's or non-SB's) a huge favor by not elaborating on this issue anymore with your absurd remarks.
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Re: speculating on the cap numbers

Postby Tico Rick on Sun Dec 07, 2008 9:21 am

Noise wrote:Gonch won't go, NTC
Goligoski will be cheaper than Whitney, and Staal will be more important than Whitney
trading Letang won't free any cap space
Whitney, as much upside as he has will be the odd man out IMO
Don't worry too much
Shero's a smart guy
he'll figure it out
we've got a solid core.


In an ideal world, the Pens would unload their oldest guy, Gonchar, while keeping their stable of young D-men intact, just like the Steelers do with their linebackers. But Gonchar's no-trade clause makes that unlikely. Because of their tremendous potential, you can't trade Letang or Goligoski unless you can get a #1 pick and more from a team that's low in the standings. So it will most likely have to be Whitney.
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Re: speculating on the cap numbers

Postby KG on Sun Dec 07, 2008 10:53 am

From everything I've read Shero and the Pens are very high on Whitney. Shero signed him to that long term deal meaning he was part of the core.

If I had to guess, I'd say Goligoski will be the odd man out. Not necessarily for cap reasons, but to fill other needs....winger!
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Re: speculating on the cap numbers

Postby Samsdog on Sun Dec 07, 2008 2:13 pm

kovyman1127 wrote:
Samsdog wrote:5 mill for Staal (I don't like that number for him but he won't bend on it [otherwise a deal would already have been done] and RS won't let him go.) Even assuming that he's just streaking and his offense isn't going to pick up, he has developed into a 5 million dollar player.


hahahahahahahah LMFAO


Have you seen what FA's are getting on the market? 4 million for Avery? 4.5 million for Jose Theodore? 4 million for Michael Ryder? And you think that a team wouldn't pay a 20 year-old shutdown center with high upside that has a 29 goal season under his belt and is on track for another one 5 million dollars? Have you ever looked at contract numbers before?

EDIT: Would I sign Staal for 5 million dollars? No. It's too much money on a maybe. But to say that he couldn't get offered that kind of money and that it's not possible that Shero will have to give him that to keep him here goes beyond presumptuous into the land of dreaming. Here's to hoping that he agrees to less money but you have to think of the worst, or at least a likely-to-happen bad situation as possible nonetheless.
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Re: speculating on the cap numbers

Postby Daniel on Sun Dec 07, 2008 3:02 pm

Tico Rick wrote:
Noise wrote:Gonch won't go, NTC
Goligoski will be cheaper than Whitney, and Staal will be more important than Whitney
trading Letang won't free any cap space
Whitney, as much upside as he has will be the odd man out IMO
Don't worry too much
Shero's a smart guy
he'll figure it out
we've got a solid core.


In an ideal world, the Pens would unload their oldest guy, Gonchar, while keeping their stable of young D-men intact, just like the Steelers do with their linebackers. But Gonchar's no-trade clause makes that unlikely. Because of their tremendous potential, you can't trade Letang or Goligoski unless you can get a #1 pick and more from a team that's low in the standings. So it will most likely have to be Whitney.


If Gonchar won't waive his NTC, can't the Penguins buy out the last year of his contract for half off? I thought a team could do that in the last year of a contract.
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Re: speculating on the cap numbers

Postby bhaw on Sun Dec 07, 2008 3:29 pm

Daniel wrote:
Tico Rick wrote:
Noise wrote:Gonch won't go, NTC
Goligoski will be cheaper than Whitney, and Staal will be more important than Whitney
trading Letang won't free any cap space
Whitney, as much upside as he has will be the odd man out IMO
Don't worry too much
Shero's a smart guy
he'll figure it out
we've got a solid core.


In an ideal world, the Pens would unload their oldest guy, Gonchar, while keeping their stable of young D-men intact, just like the Steelers do with their linebackers. But Gonchar's no-trade clause makes that unlikely. Because of their tremendous potential, you can't trade Letang or Goligoski unless you can get a #1 pick and more from a team that's low in the standings. So it will most likely have to be Whitney.


If Gonchar won't waive his NTC, can't the Penguins buy out the last year of his contract for half off? I thought a team could do that in the last year of a contract.


2/3 would count against the cap, I believe.
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Re: speculating on the cap numbers

Postby Pens4Life on Sun Dec 07, 2008 3:51 pm

I also think that there is pretty big chance that Sarge will end his career with Pens. He could re-sign for 2 more years,contract worth will be at least 1 million lower I think. Trade value of Whitney is pretty high,but i dont think Pens will ever trade him. Probably one of the Tang-Gogo duo is going to pay the price,which is Pens need of scoring winger-s. Staal can go,if he wont sign under 3.5,which is max.what he will get under RS command. RS will have a really tough job to do and some tough decisions to make,probably some cuts, even he wont like,to save this team*s all round ability and team with enough depth to go after the Cup.
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Re: speculating on the cap numbers

Postby Gary on Sun Dec 07, 2008 11:43 pm

bhaw wrote:
purelebo84 wrote:I think Sarge or Whitney (preferably Sarge) is going to have to be moved in the offseason.

It's the only possible way to keep Staal AND get a scoring winger here.


I agree, but it will be tough...

You don't want to get rid of Whitney b/c he is a guy you are counting on for the future.

Gonchar will just be returning from a tough injury. It's VERY possible he isn't 100% by the playoffs and doesn't show his best form, reducing what he SHOULD fetch. People have also said he has a NTC, but I have not seen any confirmation of it.
The team, like many others out there, is going to suffer somewhere. It's a fact of life when there is a salary cap. You can't have the best everything.


NTC Confirmed. http://www.nhlscap.com/no_trade.htm
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Re: speculating on the cap numbers

Postby SoupOrSam on Mon Dec 08, 2008 10:32 am

columbia wrote:
joker10277 wrote:It's gonna be tight, tough desicions are going to have to be made. RS has some work to do.


It would be a slightly easier if Staal could find a consistent scoring touch and move to wing.
A Talbot/Kennedy/Cooke 3rd line would be very reliable.


Why do some people keep insisting on this. Staal is a center. If he cannot accept and prosper on the third line on this team then he has zero future with this team. You do not take a first round natural center and try to mold him into something he has never and will never play. Under MT's roleplaying he can take shifts here and there as a winger but under most teams in the NHL he would center the first or second line. I'm not trying to offend you at all, but this notion really needs to get out of the heads of some people.
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Re: speculating on the cap numbers

Postby Noise on Mon Dec 08, 2008 1:18 pm

kovyman1127 wrote:
Why So Serious? wrote:As far as I'm concerned, Jordan Staal is a 20 year old with a 29 goal season already under his belt. And has 9 goals and 14 points through 26 games, while being payed at the league minimum.


Yeah....44 points over 82 games...HE'S TEARING UP THE LEAGUE!!! The 29 goal season by everyone including Staal himself he admited was an aberration.....b/c Staal never scored that way....even in Junior. It probably did more to hinder him than anything else as far as pressure/development. Alexander Daigle once scored 26 goals in the NHL too.

The problem that I have with Staal isn't so much with Staal himself...I think the kid tries hard. My problem is with all those, including the SB's (Staal Believer's) on this board that think he deserves 5 million dollars a year and talk about him as the 2nd coming of Bobby Holik (in his prime).

I have laid out the evidence:

Jesus...just go on NHL.com one day to the "play by play" section...do a search for "Staal" in the find command on your browser and look on the next line and it will have an opposing players name followed by "takeaway" time after time. Then every other hit on Staal's name you will also see "shot...wide of net". Do you guys think that this is conspiracy by NHL.com?

His hands are slow, he has no vision, he isn't physical, he gets muscled off the puck WAY too easily for his size. His only saving grace is that he is "ok" on the PK. The best quote that I heard by a writer recently states that "his next contract should be laden with incentives...for things like completing a simple pass." People are starting to catch on...and it ain't just me.....just hope RS realizes this before he signs him long term. The kid has played almost 200 games in the NHL...I think it's fair to lay it at his feet now.

I will do you SB's a favor...cause it's going to take years to convince you guys that you are wrong....I will not address this issue anymore on LGP.com....cause you guys see the glass as half full. I respect that...but trust me...you have already seen the best of JS.


The kid is 20 freaking years old.

Some guys are just starting out in the AHL at that age. Others are still playing college hockey.
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Re: speculating on the cap numbers

Postby kirk on Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:49 pm

columbia wrote:While we might have expected the cap to go up $3-4 M next year, the economic shock is clearly going to have an effect. We can't trust that figure of it dropping to 48Mm but let's assume it stays the same. (Lot's of assumptions here, but that's the nature of this type of discussion):

After signing a backup G, Scuderi and Goligoski, assuming Eaton stays and Boucher and Gill move on, that would probably put the cap hit in the 46 M range. (The Pens are already locked in for about 41 before they sign the above.)

So that leaves about 10 M to sign or replace:
Satan, Sykora, Fedotenko, Staal, Talbot, Kennedy and Zigomanis.

That's getting really tight, even if it were to go up $3-4 M.


Basically, the Pens are up a creek without a paddle . . .

Look at the guys under contract. It's 6 forwards, 5 defensemen, and MAF for a little over 42M.

O'k, sign Staal, Talbot, Gogo, Scuds, a pair of cheaper forwards, and a backup goalie for just under 8M (which is pretty optimistic). Now, you're at 50M, and all you need is a pair of wingers for Sid and a pair of wingers for Geno. If you're lucky, you'll have 6M for these four spots. If the cap drops to 54M, then it's really ugly.

Maybe RS could move Dupuis and Eaton and create another 2M in cap space. But, here's the truth: Where the Pens once looked to be in good, albeit tight, cap shape given where the 2009-2010 cap number was expected to be, now there are problems, the type of problems that could make Staal and Whitney-- Whitney first, in the hope that it's enough-- summer trade bait.
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Re: speculating on the cap numbers

Postby Stoosh on Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:15 pm

It's not a sure bet that the cap is going to go down next year.

In fact, this very topic came up on the Satellite Hot Stove on HNIC this past weekend and Pierre Lebrun said the opposite may be true. Yes, the 2009-10 cap may go up, although he said it would likely be a much more modest increase...perhaps in the $1-2 million range.

I forget all of the details, but the cap for next year is at least in part determined by league revenues for this season. A significant portion of those revenues have already been accounted for (season ticket money, initial television revenues, etc).

Lebrun said if there's a season when the cap does come down, it'll likely be 2010-11, as the 2009-10 revenues (revenues which influence the 2010-11 cap) will be the first ones to be affected by the slumping economy for a full year.
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Re: speculating on the cap numbers

Postby Stoosh on Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:16 pm

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Re: speculating on the cap numbers

Postby Noise on Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:17 pm

staal = 3.5
talbot= 1.5
gogo = 2.5
Scuderi = 1.5

those are conservative numbers and already it's at 9 million
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Re: speculating on the cap numbers

Postby SoupOrSam on Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:23 pm

Noise wrote:staal = 3.5
talbot= 1.5
gogo = 2.5
Scuderi = 1.5

those are conservative numbers and already it's at 9 million


3.5 for Staal. A first round draft pick. 2.5 for Goligoski? I bet Staal would utilize the ignore feature on his home answering machine if he knew of that. Forgehdabouded. Scuderi gets more from another team surely. Talbot is about right. What has Goligoski done at ANY level that warrants 2.5 million? I mean come on...
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Re: speculating on the cap numbers

Postby Pens4Life on Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:15 pm

For a team like this -
Fleury,Curry

Gonchar, Whitney, Orpik, Scuderi, Letang, Eaton, Goligoski

Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Sykora, Talbot, Cooke, Dupuis, Kennedy, Zigomanis, Bissonnette,
Godard, Taffe, Minard

We are just around 56 mills,if we get all UFA and RFA players under conservative contracts..
But this team needs at least 1 more winger,soo that means another 3-4 mills,soo where to get it?
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Re: speculating on the cap numbers

Postby Noise on Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:21 pm

SoupOrSam wrote:
Noise wrote:staal = 3.5
talbot= 1.5
gogo = 2.5
Scuderi = 1.5

those are conservative numbers and already it's at 9 million


3.5 for Staal. A first round draft pick. 2.5 for Goligoski? I bet Staal would utilize the ignore feature on his home answering machine if he knew of that. Forgehdabouded. Scuderi gets more from another team surely. Talbot is about right. What has Goligoski done at ANY level that warrants 2.5 million? I mean come on...


I said those were conservative numbers.
And Goligoski can totally get 2.5 if he wants, hell, I'm sure there are teams that'd throw out an offer sheet for him for that much, possibly more. It's the nature of 2nd contracts now I'm afraid.

Staal's number will be anywhere from 3.5-5 million.
And I'd agree that Scuderi could get more. I'd trade Eaton and give him Eaton's salary.

As I said that was a conservative estimate.
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Re: speculating on the cap numbers

Postby Noise on Mon Dec 08, 2008 7:22 pm

Pens4Life wrote:For a team like this -
Fleury,Curry

Gonchar, Whitney, Orpik, Scuderi, Letang, Eaton, Goligoski

Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Sykora, Talbot, Cooke, Dupuis, Kennedy, Zigomanis, Bissonnette,
Godard, Taffe, Minard

We are just around 56 mills,if we get all UFA and RFA players under conservative contracts..
But this team needs at least 1 more winger,soo that means another 3-4 mills,soo where to get it?


Not winning a cup with a team with that little forward depth.
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