Free Agency Revisited

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Re: Free Agency Revisited

Postby beerman on Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:50 pm

Pens15 wrote:It just kind of sucks because Hossa >>>>>>>>>> Satan obviously and Malone >>>>>>>>>>>> Fedo.


There price tags are also way higher, both Hossa and Malone wouldn't have fit under the cap unless we plugged a bunch of WBS throughout the rest of the lineup. We also would defintely not have Orpik had that been coupled with the injuries to Whit and Gonchar, I'd really hate to see where this team would be right now.
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Re: Free Agency Revisited

Postby wm0712 on Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:52 pm

Maagwa wrote:
Defence21 wrote:
Maagwa wrote:A really good GM would have signed a winger for Sid that isn't a 3rd Liner Or a one a upon a season 30 goal scorer that struggles to score 15 a season. Truth. I don't mean to bash Shero because I mean..... he got Hossa but...

Yeah, a really good GM can say "screw the cap" and sign whoever he wants at whatever price he wants!

Clearly, Shero is subpar at best.

:roll:

Clearly the Wings can Have Zetterberg, Dats, Hossa, Lids, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc..... and Sign Conklin with no cap problems.... and still win the cup


first of all, thats a terrible argument... especially the conklin part, he has a .901 save percentage and a 2.81 gaa and your acting like it was a big deal they signed him

second of all, the wings got really really lucky.. zetterbergs cap number is like 2.6 or something like that.. after this season he'll be looking at about 7 or so, while franzen (0.942) is going to be looking for nice raise as well, not to mention hossa will be a free agent and will almost certainly be gone since they arent going to be able to sign all of them

the wings have been really lucky so far as far as the cap goes, but wait til this offseason, they'll feel it just like every other team has
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Re: Free Agency Revisited

Postby beerman on Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:55 pm

Maagwa wrote:
Defence21 wrote:
Maagwa wrote:A really good GM would have signed a winger for Sid that isn't a 3rd Liner Or a one a upon a season 30 goal scorer that struggles to score 15 a season. Truth. I don't mean to bash Shero because I mean..... he got Hossa but...

Yeah, a really good GM can say "screw the cap" and sign whoever he wants at whatever price he wants!

Clearly, Shero is subpar at best.

:roll:

Clearly the Wings can Have Zetterberg, Dats, Hossa, Lids, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc..... and Sign Conklin with no cap problems.... and still win the cup


Wait till after this year when most of their roster is due a raise coupled with the cap possibly going down and we'll see just how good their GM is
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Re: Free Agency Revisited

Postby Samsdog on Mon Dec 08, 2008 2:59 pm

beerman wrote:
Maagwa wrote:
Defence21 wrote:Yeah, a really good GM can say "screw the cap" and sign whoever he wants at whatever price he wants!

Clearly, Shero is subpar at best.

:roll:

Clearly the Wings can Have Zetterberg, Dats, Hossa, Lids, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc..... and Sign Conklin with no cap problems.... and still win the cup


Wait till after this year when most of their roster is due a raise coupled with the cap possibly going down and we'll see just how good their GM is


The Wings have always been noted for their draft scouting, and look at what they had entering the post-lockout period. Zetterberg, Dats, Franzen, Lidstrom, already there. Dats is the only one that's had to renegotiate since then, the other guys are still on deals from when they were scrubs. Kenny Holland is one of the more free-spending GM's the league's seen in recent times, it's going to come back and bite him eventually. If he tries to sign all 3 of Hossa Franzen and Zet like he says he wants to then that time is soon.

Edit: the free spender thing isn't a knock on the guy, its a reputation all Wings GM's have, just the way the franchise has worked for years.
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Re: Free Agency Revisited

Postby Defence21 on Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:05 pm

Maagwa wrote:
Defence21 wrote:
Maagwa wrote:A really good GM would have signed a winger for Sid that isn't a 3rd Liner Or a one a upon a season 30 goal scorer that struggles to score 15 a season. Truth. I don't mean to bash Shero because I mean..... he got Hossa but...

Yeah, a really good GM can say "screw the cap" and sign whoever he wants at whatever price he wants!

Clearly, Shero is subpar at best.

:roll:

Clearly the Wings can Have Zetterberg, Dats, Hossa, Lids, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc..... and Sign Conklin with no cap problems.... and still win the cup

Yes, and exactly how many of those players were free agents? They're all home grown talent, aside from Conklin and Hossa, which means they're on hometown discounts and playing well above their current contracts. Pittsburgh's hometown discounts: Crosby, Malkin, Orpik, Fleury.

By the way, good luck to Ken Holland next summer as he deals with all his free agents, which include UFAs Hossa ($7+ mil, at least), Zetterberg ($2.65 mil up to Datsyuk's $6.7 mil, at least), Franzen ($941k up to $3 mil, at least), Samuelsson ($1.2 mil up to $2.5 mil, at least), and Conklin ($1 mil) and RFA Hudler ($1.5 mil at least). So, with a $41, 816,110 cap hit next season (not including those players), they're going to have to try to squeeze in four top-notch players. Will you say the same thing about Holland next summer when he is faced with a similar situation the Penguins faced last summer? Because I highly doubt he'll be able to re-sign nearly $20 million worth of players currently on his roster.
Last edited by Defence21 on Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Free Agency Revisited

Postby KG on Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:07 pm

Hossa porked them bottom line. Satan and Fedotenko were no risk signings because they were 1 year contracts, plus there was not any realistic alternatives out there...Shero is a very good GM imo...
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Re: Free Agency Revisited

Postby Samsdog on Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:08 pm

KG wrote:Hossa porked them bottom line.


Don't know why I found that so hilarious but I did.
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Re: Free Agency Revisited

Postby Jim on Mon Dec 08, 2008 3:24 pm

I do not remember who the "name" free agents were so I can not give you a valid list.
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Re: Free Agency Revisited

Postby newarenanow on Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:50 pm

Maagwa wrote:
Defence21 wrote:
Maagwa wrote:A really good GM would have signed a winger for Sid that isn't a 3rd Liner Or a one a upon a season 30 goal scorer that struggles to score 15 a season. Truth. I don't mean to bash Shero because I mean..... he got Hossa but...

Yeah, a really good GM can say "screw the cap" and sign whoever he wants at whatever price he wants!

Clearly, Shero is subpar at best.

:roll:

Clearly the Wings can Have Zetterberg, Dats, Hossa, Lids, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc..... and Sign Conklin with no cap problems.... and still win the cup


You do realize that those guys are all homegrown, and have not reached the point where they signed their big payday contracts. I think this year, a lot of those guys become free agents.

With Crosby, Malkin, Fluery, Whitney, Staal all signed to their "money" contracts, Shero has his hands tied to add much else.
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Re: Free Agency Revisited

Postby KG on Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:53 pm

Samsdog wrote:
KG wrote:Hossa porked them bottom line.


Don't know why I found that so hilarious but I did.


I say it to myself every day...Hossa totally porked them...I have not gotten over it...Now we are going to have to trade a real asset to "replace" him this year
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Re: Free Agency Revisited

Postby KG on Mon Dec 08, 2008 4:55 pm

Jim wrote:I do not remember who the "name" free agents were so I can not give you a valid list.



Jim,

Here's the list of free agents...

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/feature/?id=11074

Naslund, Stillman, Vrbata, Rolston, Brunette were the names I remember being tossed around here at that time...
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Re: Free Agency Revisited

Postby Pens4Life on Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:02 pm

Penspal wrote:Well, I don't understand the Satan signing to be frank. Yes, he could score goals years ago, but he's been on a slide.

But here is the problem. He was NEVER a playoff performer. He's NOT shown courage (shot blocking, play through injury, take a hit, give a hit) in the playoffs.

GP__G__A__P +/-
56 15 23 38 -1

And with the focus on winning the Cup, well, he's not the right choice in my opinion.


Im most agree with the most of yaa all ;) For that kind of money,we hardly could get better players,that we got. Satan has 10 goals in 27 gp,soo he is on pace for 30 goals season,a lot better than a year before,Fedo has 5 goals,if he finishes with 15,he has done his job.
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Re: Free Agency Revisited

Postby Why So Serious? on Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:21 pm

Maagwa wrote:A really good GM would have signed a winger for Sid that isn't a 3rd Liner Or a one a upon a season 30 goal scorer that struggles to score 15 a season. Truth. I don't mean to bash Shero because I mean..... he got Hossa but...


That's cause he played on the NYI. The guy does have 10G and 9A already this season. 19 points through 26 games is about what I expected from him. No he's not a Marian Hossa, but he has been serviceable thus far. I really don't know how much more you expect out of him at this point. And Fedotenko is starting to hit his stride as well. I think I'm willing to give these guys some more games before outright considering them as horrible offseason acquisitions.
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Re: Free Agency Revisited

Postby Pens15 on Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:26 pm

Satan could score 25-30 goals this year and I would still think he's a bad pick-up. He brings nothing to the team when he's not scoring, which is 95% of the time. He had one good shot this year, otherwise all the rest of his goals have been around the net. That's great, except since like mid-November he doesn't go to the net anymore! He had one good game in the last dozen and that was because the pathetically soft opponent was letting him do whatever he wanted. Point out his stats all you want, but I'm not a fan of this guy at all.
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Re: Free Agency Revisited

Postby ams on Mon Dec 08, 2008 5:35 pm

If a first line winger scores thirty, he's done his job. If you told me that this offseason, when it became obvious that Hossa wasn't staying, that the Pens would sign a guy to play on Sid's wing and have a 30/30 season for a very modest cap hit, I would've been pretty happy.

Most players aren't wholly well rounded, so you pick up some guys who score, but don't do much else, and some guys that play with grit, but don't score many goals. No team will be made up of a whole roster of guys who can do both, and to complain about Satan being on pace for 30 goals after some of the first line wingers Sid had had to play with (and continues to play with) means to me that you may never be happy, at least until Malkin goes somewhere else so the Pens can pay what they'd need to to sign a top-notch winger.

Naslund's had a good start, but he was as much of a risk as Satan, and he's got one of the worst +/- on the Rags, though I've not watched them enough to know if that's his fault.

If Shero signed a 30-goal guy on Sid's wing for a modest one year deal, and signs a bigger fish next year when there's a chance, I see nothing wrong with this deal at all.
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Re: Free Agency Revisited

Postby purelebo84 on Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:03 pm

The only guy the Pens could have had that would have been cap compliant, other than Hossa, was Justin Williams.

That would have been the bomb.

I'm not terribly unhappy with Satan and Fedo.
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Re: Free Agency Revisited

Postby purelebo84 on Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:05 pm

By the way, good luck to Ken Holland next summer as he deals with all his free agents, which include UFAs Hossa ($7+ mil, at least), Zetterberg ($2.65 mil up to Datsyuk's $6.7 mil, at least), Franzen ($941k up to $3 mil, at least), Samuelsson ($1.2 mil up to $2.5 mil, at least), and Conklin ($1 mil) and RFA Hudler ($1.5 mil at least).

Look at what Malone got.

Franzen is due for 5 million.

Hudler will bet more than 1.5 also.
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Re: Free Agency Revisited

Postby Why So Serious? on Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:12 pm

purelebo84 wrote:
By the way, good luck to Ken Holland next summer as he deals with all his free agents, which include UFAs Hossa ($7+ mil, at least), Zetterberg ($2.65 mil up to Datsyuk's $6.7 mil, at least), Franzen ($941k up to $3 mil, at least), Samuelsson ($1.2 mil up to $2.5 mil, at least), and Conklin ($1 mil) and RFA Hudler ($1.5 mil at least).

Look at what Malone got.

Franzen is due for 5 million.

Hudler will bet more than 1.5 also.


Hudler has been a monster this year. Probably Detroit's most unsung hero thus far. 12G, 12A, 24P.
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Re: Free Agency Revisited

Postby netwolf on Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:20 pm

I said at the time that I would have rather had Naslund at what the Rangers got him for (2 years @ $4M) than what we got Satan for (1 year @ $3.5M) and I still feel that way, but I understand why Shero was looking for guys on 1 year deals.
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Re: Free Agency Revisited

Postby Samsdog on Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:22 pm

http://nhlsalary.globesports.com/NHLSal ... alary.html

An early look at the 2009 free agents for all who are interested.
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Re: Free Agency Revisited

Postby Defence21 on Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:28 pm

purelebo84 wrote:
By the way, good luck to Ken Holland next summer as he deals with all his free agents, which include UFAs Hossa ($7+ mil, at least), Zetterberg ($2.65 mil up to Datsyuk's $6.7 mil, at least), Franzen ($941k up to $3 mil, at least), Samuelsson ($1.2 mil up to $2.5 mil, at least), and Conklin ($1 mil) and RFA Hudler ($1.5 mil at least).

Look at what Malone got.

Franzen is due for 5 million.

Hudler will bet more than 1.5 also.


I was being conservative, but yes, I completely agree.
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Re: Free Agency Revisited

Postby purelebo84 on Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:28 pm

I have a better list, sortable by stats.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/cap-central/freeagents.php
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Re: Free Agency Revisited

Postby Stoosh on Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:29 pm

GrandInquisitor wrote:I can't remember exactly how it happened but it sure would have been great to get Zherdev. That guy is legit and putting up big numbers with the centers that the Rangers have...would be scary to see what he could do with Sid/Geno


Is he legit?

Zherdev has had a good 1/3 of a season with the Rangers, but does that really absolve four years of character issues that he piled up when he was with Columbus? He clashed with coaches and general managers, took shifts off regularly and did all this with at least one well-respected Russian legend (Federov) on the roster with him for some of that time.

It should also be noted that Zherdev is also playing for a contract. He's making $2.5M this year, slated for restricted free agency and if I had to put my money on one pending free agent to be playing the Contract Year Tease Game, my money would be on Zherdev.

He might have been better this year than, say, Fedotenko or even Satan, but there's no way I'd want him anywhere close to a long-term deal with this team.
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Re: Free Agency Revisited

Postby Samsdog on Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:30 pm

purelebo84 wrote:I have a better list, sortable by stats.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/cap-central/freeagents.php


Good that no sorting was driving me insane.
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Re: Free Agency Revisited

Postby Stoosh on Mon Dec 08, 2008 6:43 pm

Some thoughts on this winger situation...

2007-08 Playoffs
Sidney Crosby - In 20 games, Sid was 6-21-27, for a points-per-game average of 1.35. That was with Hossa on his wing.
Marian Hossa - 20 games, 12-14-26 for a ppg of 1.30.

2008-09
Sidney Crosby - In 26 games, he has 13-27-40, for a ppg of 1.54. That's been with Satan primarily on his wing. Incidentally...
Miro Satan - In 26 games, he has 10-9-19 for a ppg of 0.73.

It should be noted that...

1. This year, 15 of Crosby's 40 points have come on the powerplay...not as many as I expected to see.
2. There's no way of telling without doing some extensive research how many of Sid's points have come while he's been paired with Malkin.

I just find it interesting that over a relatively similar sample size, Sid's production this year is actually well above his production with Hossa.

Is that indicative of any sort of long-term trend? Absolutely not.

I'm just throwing out the idea that Hossa may not have made all that much a difference. Or if he did, would it have been enough to offset the other sacrifices Shero would've had to make to bring Hossa back? For instance, it's almost certain that Orpik wouldn't have been back if Hossa signed because the money wouldn't have been there. Hossa's deal may have thrown Fleury's long-term deal into jeopardy as well, as well as the signings of guys like Satan and Fedotenko, which would've at least affected depth.

I think it's possible to hook this team up with a quality top-line winger. I just think they need to explore the idea of bringing in a younger winger - someone closer in age to the rest of the core. That winger obviously would be less accomplished than someone like Hossa, Kovalchuk or Gaborik, but the chance at developing a potential next-generation Hossa is the tradeoff for fitting someone in on those lines within the cap structure and preserving depth through the roster.
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