Is MT losing control?

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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby saveourpens on Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:45 pm

panthers1788 wrote:
saveourpens wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:MT hasn't had control for a while. I've been calling for him to be fired since early September, finally someone else agrees with me. When is he going to be removed?


Teams fire coaches b/c it's much easier to make it look like there is a change than replace the lineup. Has the replacing of a coach ever led to a team's turnaround????? Even Edzo bashers can't argue with the fact that MT had basically the same record as he did.



Actually just recently....look at the Washington Capitals firing Glen Hanlon and hiring Bruce Boudreau last year, that was a complete turnaround.


Im aware of that. The point is that is completely the minority and firing a coach is almost always a cover up for the teams terrible play.

No doubt, we should fire the coach that got us to the SCF several months ago.
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby marek on Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:45 pm

Thanks Jesse.
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby Stoosh on Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:02 pm

Jesse wrote:First off, the Penguins don't play the true meaning of a trap. They play a 1-2-2 swing. It's LIKE a trap, sure. But it takes your talented centers and has them funnel the puck to whichever side of the ice they see fit. When the players see an open lane (what the Penguins are "giving" them) they throw the puck there. The center swings to that side, the Winger boxes in, and the defenseman steps up. The idea being that you're suffocating the puck carrier and creating turnovers.

Turnovers, when you have talented and offensively dangerous centers, are a good thing. Every game we see several chances generated off of this system. The problem? The team isn't converting. They're either missing the net completely (Crosby's chance last night), overpassing (We see it every game), or getting sloppy and turning it back over to the other team (Talbot against Buffalo).

The easy way out for most people is to hire a coach that lets the offensive guys do whatever they want. People clamor for offensive creativity. They want the reigns let loose.

The reason we DON'T do that, and the reason we should be glad MT instilled a sense of defensive-mindedness on the team, is because that offensive, free-flow system NEVER wins cups.

If we played a wide open style of hockey, Detroit would have swept us. No two ways about it. The Rangers may have as well. We took the strength of the NYR and turned it around on them. Save the first two periods of game one, we did everything exactly right.

People think there are 100 styles of breakouts in the NHL and that the dump and chase is some kind of weird albatross that only the Penguins use. Every team in the NHL has a "get it deep and attack" strategy.

I sat next to the Asst. Head Coach of the St. Vincent Mens hockey team last night and asked him, flat out, if he thought Mike Babcock "outcoached" Michel Therrien in the finals. His response? No. You take what has worked for you, and you apply it to every team in succession. If you lose, you were either the lesser team, or you didn't work hard enough. People think this is football and there are 100 different in-game adjustments you can make on the fly when you're coaching. Unfortunately, things don't work that way.

My thoughts? Teams go through patches like this. We got off to our best start since 1995 and we're frustrated right now. There will be a game where everything clicks and we get back on the right track. Why do I know this? Because it's hockey. It happens every year. Where did this mentality that everyone has come from? Why are we all having heart attacks after the team loses? Did you forget that we play 82 games? This isn't the NFL. Hockey is a sport of growth. It ebbs and flows. It isn't just with the team as a whole, it's with the power-play, the penalty-kill, certain players, etc. That's what is great about the sport.

People used to enjoy hockey in Pittsburgh. Now they just look for everything thats wrong and harp on it for weeks at a time. Surprising considering this team was about a moving truck away from playing in KC.


Commited.

This post is worth three beers and an order of wings at Kendrew's.
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby Daniel87 on Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:07 pm

marek wrote:Thanks Jesse.
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby penny lane on Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:10 pm

marek wrote:Thanks Jesse.



More rum cake for Jesse!
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby offsides on Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:11 pm

wm0712 wrote:a couple of things really sealed if for me last night

first of all: why in the world did MT put sid and geno together for the first two periods against the worst team in hockey? wouldnt it make more sense to have them on seperate lines? then when we're down heading into the third, what happens? sid and malkin are on seperate lines, but wouldnt you rather have them together to try and make a comeback?

second of all: how in the world does this team only manage 3 shots in the third period when your losing the whole period? with malkin, crosby, sykora, goligoski, whitney, staal etc.. all in the lineup there is no way you only get 3 shots against the worst team in the league


I couldn't figure out Sid and Geno being together so much either and the lack of effort in the third was hard to take. Tampa's defense sucks but they just shut us down. I like to stay optimistic but they are sure making it hard. Now the Friday game looks huge!
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby NJ5934 on Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:17 pm

Jesse wrote:First off, the Penguins don't play the true meaning of a trap. They play a 1-2-2 swing. It's LIKE a trap, sure. But it takes your talented centers and has them funnel the puck to whichever side of the ice they see fit. When the players see an open lane (what the Penguins are "giving" them) they throw the puck there. The center swings to that side, the Winger boxes in, and the defenseman steps up. The idea being that you're suffocating the puck carrier and creating turnovers.


Jesse, I appreciate your posts but what you described here is the TRUE trap or at least the trap that has become notorious in the NHL. The Devils were famous for the 1-2-2 and the Wild play the same system. The problem I have is the Devils and the Wild are both traditionally hard working teams and the Penguins are not. The Devils and Wild battle in the corners and they create opportunity once the forced turnover has been made. In essence, they take what seems like a very boring brand of hockey and create alot of scoring chances, thus making it exciting. If you watch the Devils or Wild (or most other offensive teams in the league) all three forwards are skating all the time. There is very little waiting along the boards, there is even less waiting for loose pucks. They dig for pucks, they skate into shooting lanes and they drive to the net. The Penguins at even strength, much like they are on the pee pee, tend to spend alot of time standing and gliding, waiting for the perfect pass. The end result is minimal shots on net and scoring chances, something we've become too familiar with.

If you think Therrien is a genius and the 1-2-2 is the system of champions, then I would argue the forwards on the Penguins scoring lines are just not the right type of players for this system. Lets be honest, Sykora and Satan aren't digging for anything. Sykora goes to great lengths to avoid physical contact with anything and Satan's game traditionally has been to stand around waiting for someone to set him up with the one-timer, hence the "sniper" tag everyone seems to associate with him. Dupuis has the wheels but lacks the strength to win battles and Fedotenko is known for taking multiple games off at a time.

Kennedy should probably be on one of the top lines as he is probably the most effective at quick gritty transition, but Therrien has a "mango salsa like" obsession with Dupuis. Plus Kennedy seems to give the third line the jump they need to make it an offensive sleeper.

Anyway you look at it, the Penguins are really not balanced enough to be successful right now, at least not enough to compete with the Flyers, Bruins and Rangers (probably Devils, Canadians and Capitals too). Realistically, you either change the system (coach) or you change the players. If you think the system fails, we need a new coach. If you think the trap is the way to go, we need some new players who will excel under it. Right now, the team is a mess and its easier, sadly, to replace a coach than four or five players. Another couple weeks of this kind of play and we'll probably be talking about the upcoming 09 draft more so than a finals repeat.

Great post though.
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby pens_CT on Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:34 pm

NJ5934 wrote:
Jesse wrote:Anyway you look at it, the Penguins are really not balanced enough to be successful right now, at least not enough to compete with the Flyers, Bruins and Rangers (probably Devils, Canadians and Capitals too). Realistically, you either change the system (coach) or you change the players. If you think the system fails, we need a new coach. If you think the trap is the way to go, we need some new players who will excel under it. Right now, the team is a mess and its easier, sadly, to replace a coach than four or five players. Another couple weeks of this kind of play and we'll probably be talking about the upcoming 09 draft more so than a finals repeat.

Great post though.
What has changed personnel wise from this time last year. The forwards are minus EC, Army, Malone, Hall, Ruutu, BGL, and Roberts. The only one that the pens remotely miss is Malone. All of the others supplied little to this team. They managed to get the number two seed playing this style and so I don't see why they can't succeed this year playing the same way. They might not be a #2 based on the improvement of other teams, most notably Boston and Washington along with injuries to the defense which has killed the PP (Gonchar). If you want to change coaches, then the obvious question is who do you want. There isn't a stellar crop out there looking for work, unless you want a guy who has already been canned by another organization. I don't see this as a step forward just a panic move.
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby muffinarm on Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:43 pm

We can all write it about it twenty different ways, but teams that don't work hard very often don't win. Just take a good long look at Satan, the poster boy for the Penguins of December.
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:49 pm

muffinarm wrote:We can all write it about it twenty different ways, but teams that don't work hard very often don't win. Just take a good long look at Satan, the poster boy for the Penguins of December.


It can be written many different ways, but if a team isn't working hard, they aren't likely to win. Look at Miroslav, the living commentary on the December Penguins.
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:03 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:
muffinarm wrote:We can all write it about it twenty different ways, but teams that don't work hard very often don't win. Just take a good long look at Satan, the poster boy for the Penguins of December.


It can be written many different ways, but if a team isn't working hard, they aren't likely to win. Look at Miroslav, the living commentary on the December Penguins.


You say To-MAT-O I say Tow-May-Toe, if the guys don't give 110% the team is going to lose more than they win. See also: Palffy, The personification of the Penguins in December.

:D :D :D
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby MWB on Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:50 pm

Daniel87 wrote:
marek wrote:Thanks Jesse.


Second that. It's always nice to see logical, well thought out posts in the midst of cliff jumping.
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby NeddieVedder on Wed Dec 24, 2008 6:23 pm

ExPatriatePen wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
muffinarm wrote:We can all write it about it twenty different ways, but teams that don't work hard very often don't win. Just take a good long look at Satan, the poster boy for the Penguins of December.


It can be written many different ways, but if a team isn't working hard, they aren't likely to win. Look at Miroslav, the living commentary on the December Penguins.


You say To-MAT-O I say Tow-May-Toe, if the guys don't give 110% the team is going to lose more than they win. See also: Palffy, The personification of the Penguins in December.


I've seen it written plenty of different ways, but wins don't come to teams without hard work. cf. #81, emblematic of the Pens circa 12/08.
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby Pens4Life on Wed Dec 24, 2008 6:43 pm

MT has it,players currently dont,they have mental problems,not relaxed,some weird blocade in head.. and they are making turnovers,overpassing,forced shots,stupid penalties.. There has to be a change,but thats up to MT and RS,what do to,they know for best,what is going on and what will maybe solve problem. But as a team,we have unbeliavable bad luck with injuries,on and on 3-4-5 players out and important ones.. when we are complete we are SC team..
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby pcm on Wed Dec 24, 2008 6:49 pm

As long as Mario Lemieux is the owner of this team it will play the trap.






Jesse said it. Mario said it too after the 2001 conference finals loss to NJ. Championship teams play a defensive-first system.
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby cojac on Wed Dec 24, 2008 6:56 pm

Peter Laviolette the next coach of the Pens
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby cojac on Wed Dec 24, 2008 6:58 pm

Brooks Orpik should be the Captain
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby Why So Serious? on Wed Dec 24, 2008 6:59 pm

cojac wrote:Brooks Orpik should be the Captain

:pop:
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby largegarlic on Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:05 pm

I don't think a coaching change is the answer right now. I think a couple shrewd trades (I know that is easier said than done) and some players returning from injury will help a lot.

But...I would be curious to see what this team would like under Tortorella (sp?). When Tampa won the Cup, they had a very similar make-up to this current Pens team. I liked watching that Tampa team play. They played a very up-tempo game and never took their foot off the gas.
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:09 pm

cojac wrote:Peter Laviolette the next coach of the Pens


I can't say Peter is a friend, but I've broken bread with him a number of times when i lived in Providence RI in the late 90's and he coached the baby Bruins. We could do a lot worse.
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby Pavel Bure on Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:24 pm

largegarlic wrote:I don't think a coaching change is the answer right now. I think a couple shrewd trades (I know that is easier said than done) and some players returning from injury will help a lot.

But...I would be curious to see what this team would like under Tortorella (sp?). When Tampa won the Cup, they had a very similar make-up to this current Pens team. I liked watching that Tampa team play. They played a very up-tempo game and never took their foot off the gas.


The other thing that Tampa team had was constant hard work, if a player didn't bring that he got an earful. Hell the year after the lockout I remember Martin St.Louis being demoted to the fourth line because he wasn't working hard enough in Tort's eyes. He has been known as a hated coach but I believe Dan Boyle put it best in this interview. http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/columns/s ... id=2816121 A question about Torts is put to him about 3/4 the way down on the page. It's a good read and I think he'd be great for this team. The only downside would be since Fleury is considered to be a bit of a headcase in his confidence Torts might not be good for him.

Torts would bring discipline, hard work, and accountability with him. Whether the Bolts were playing well or not you rarely saw them lose battles against he boards, or watched them be second to a loose puck. Safe is dead would be a great philosophy for this current team IMO.
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby Va Beach Pens Fan on Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:24 pm

You guys made me type tonight, giving full props of course....

http://www.kuklaskorner.com/index.php/t ... d_by_fans/
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby Pavel Bure on Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:27 pm

Va Beach Pens Fan wrote:You guys made me type tonight, giving full props of course....

http://www.kuklaskorner.com/index.php/t ... d_by_fans/


Just a small off topic question but is the Pens main board considered a wasteland? Cause MT has been questioned since before last season on there, hell they dug up threads from when MT was hired that are on a Canadiens board that is saying the exact same things Pens fans are saying now. Nothing has changed with MT and his coaching style/philosophy and he was fired because of it once already.
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby Va Beach Pens Fan on Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:35 pm

LOL, ya know honestly, I completely forgot about them....

LGP and HF are the two main boards IMO, whatever that's worth... :D
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Re: Is MT losing control?

Postby ExPatriatePen on Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:38 pm

Va Beach Pens Fan wrote:LOL, ya know honestly, I completely forgot about them....

LGP and HF are the two main boards IMO, whatever that's worth... :D


RULE #1 of LGP:

THERE ARE NO OTHER BOARDS !!!
:D :lol: :lol: :D
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