good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby KG on Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:30 pm

I also don't think it's fair for MM to say that Shero didn't have plan B in place for Hossa. There is Hossa and there is everyone else left on the market. Hossa was the only elite winger available. Shero went with the next "best" available that fit into the cap structure...
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby czwalga on Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:32 pm

Basically what I and a few others have been saying since last year. Staal doesn't really fit on this team.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby Kicksave on Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:36 pm

joker10277 wrote:
purelebo84 wrote:
meecrofilm wrote:I'd hit up Staal, Gogo, and a 2nd for Brad Boyes. But I don't think that one'll happen.

Or,

Staal and a 2nd for Brad Boyes.


I think you guys are underestimating the value staal has to a team that doesn't have sid and geno as their top centers. Staal alone should bring back Boyes plus Picks or players. Remember Boyes was traded for Wideman.


That was before Boyes turned into a 40 goal scorer.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby KG on Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:39 pm

I'm not a huge Boyes fan. I know he's on a bad team, but he is a minus machine. Trust me, I have him in my fantasy team.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby joker10277 on Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:41 pm

KG wrote:I'm not a huge Boyes fan. I know he's on a bad team, but he is a minus machine. Trust me, I have him in my fantasy team.


I have him too, he's minus every game, I wouldn't do more than gogo straight up for him...
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby DelPen on Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:43 pm

Simple answer is force Staal to play wing. Have him play with Crosby for the rest of the year stick with it. Do it when Zigomanis comes back as he will be fine with the increased role on the 3rd line. That leaves this lineup when everyone is healthy:

Staal-Crosby-Satan
Fedotenko-Malkin-Sykora
Cooke-Zigomanis-Kennedy
Dupuis-Talbot-Godard

The wing problem shouldn't even exist with the roster we have.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby KG on Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:44 pm

joker10277 wrote:
KG wrote:I'm not a huge Boyes fan. I know he's on a bad team, but he is a minus machine. Trust me, I have him in my fantasy team.


I have him too, he's minus every game, I wouldn't do more than gogo straight up for him...


-22 in 36 games to be exact! ouch...
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby bhaw on Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:57 pm

columbia wrote:It's interesting how the opinion on this board has slowly shifted over the last month, re: Staal.
You have to wonder what RS is planning/scheming, but a deal involving Staal is seeming more and more likely. He's the best (only?) shot for gaining a scoring winger, while maintaining the deep talent at the blue line.

EDIT: Notice how the "we don't need another winger" crowd has just about disappeared?


There's only so many ways to say that it is un-needed but about 9000 ways to come up with a way to get a winger. A slump brings out 10x more speculation threads and everyone jumps on board.

The Pens don't NEED to look for another winger until they have a healthy line up and can see what is actually needed. There are also very few, if any, trade partner at this point that could solve the problem. The speculation has gained momentum from rumors with no backing, and some that are actually contradictory to real reports. Gaborik is being perpetuated by Eklund, who no one believes unless it's Gaborik to Pittsburgh. Atlanta has come out and specifically said that they are not moving Kovalchuk. Horton was a made up rumor. But this is what you are seeing in thread after thread after thread.

How many times do you expect someone to point out that all of these are simply made up rumors that people run with b/c it sounds good? I believe Staal will get another stint at wing before any move is made.

EDIT: But that's not to say Shero isn't always looking. It would be bad business for a GM to just close his ears and eyes to potential moves. I think the conversations have drifted more in this direction as well. If Shero can get an upgrade now, of course no one would be against it.
Last edited by bhaw on Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby pcm on Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:58 pm

DelPen wrote:Simple answer is force Staal to play wing. Have him play with Crosby for the rest of the year stick with it. Do it when Zigomanis comes back as he will be fine with the increased role on the 3rd line. That leaves this lineup when everyone is healthy:

Staal-Crosby-Satan
Fedotenko-Malkin-Sykora
Cooke-Zigomanis-Kennedy
Dupuis-Talbot-Godard

The wing problem shouldn't even exist with the roster we have.


The only reason I can see that this hasn't been tried since Staal got his game back is that management thinks he's more effective as a 3rd center. I can't necessarily argue, since it gives this team unparralled strength down the middle. And we were seeing the rewards of having 3 lines that could put the puck in the net, until Kennedy went down.

But if you're thinking of trading Staal for a winger, it's utterly retarded barring a contract impasse when you've got a 25-30 goal scorer with the frame of Mario Lemieux at the ripe old age of 20 sitting on your roster.

The Red Line is set. Staal has never ever played with Crosby. I would put him there for 20 games and see how things produce. He can still play as a swing wing/center depending on matchups, but you need to establish that familiarity. I would also give Kennedy the chance to supplant Satan in the depth chart.

Tank-Malkin-Sykora
Staal-Crosby-Kennedy/Satan
Cooke-Talbot-Satan/Kennedy
Dupuis-Zigo-Godard

That to me is a forward group without any serious holes.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby farnham16 on Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:05 pm

Its scary that I completely agree with everything Madden said in that article.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby Sarcastic on Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:17 pm

Good article. I also agree with pretty much everything here. Considering we'll be paying Crosby and Malkin top $, we have to get used to the idea that our 3rd and 4rh line centers won't be making big money. That's pretty much it.

I think Talbot is the perfect 3rd line center. Gonchar is a must-have for the next few years. We're totally lost without him, it seems. So either Whit, Letang, or Gogo, will most likely get traded. I kinda have been liking Gogo a LOT recently... I really don't want to see him moved - just saying.

What we can also do is screw this season (keep everybody) and wait until summer. But Shero better sing a quality winger or two for Crosby this time, as he totally screwed up the Hossa/Satan situation.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby pcm on Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:19 pm

Sarcastic wrote:But Shero better sing a quality winger or two for Crosby this time, as he totally screwed up the Hossa/Satan situation.


Jimmerson might help with that.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby DelPen on Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:31 pm

pcm wrote:The only reason I can see that this hasn't been tried since Staal got his game back is that management thinks he's more effective as a 3rd center. I can't necessarily argue, since it gives this team unparralled strength down the middle. And we were seeing the rewards of having 3 lines that could put the puck in the net, until Kennedy went down.


It's great when MT keeps Malkin-Crosby-Staal down the middle but when Malkin is moved to LW it changes to Crosby-Staal-Talbot. Fairly pathetic when comapring the two. Malkin-Crosby-Talbot looks a lot better if it means Staal is moved to LW.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby penmyst on Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:45 pm

Staal probably will have to go. I don't think he has filled out yet to his potential, though he has been outstanding in the playoffs both years. But the Pens would get more out of a similarly talented wing to put on the top 2 lines. 3rd line center can be more easily replaced on this team than their weak wing situation.

Kennedy is not the answer. He's a 3rd line/minor league at best. What I think they miss about Kennedy is the tenacity with which he plays. He can bring that on a 3rd line, and sometimes it can rub off on the entire team. He doesn't have the offensive skills or size to be on top 2 lines in the NHL.

This team certainly can use some talent on the top wings. But what they really need is the work ethic on those lines to increase. There is far too much waiting for the "skill" to win games for them. Can't sh*t out 3 or 4 goal periods on request.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby sina220 on Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:52 pm

columbia wrote:It's interesting how the opinion on this board has slowly shifted over the last month, re: Staal.
You have to wonder what RS is planning/scheming, but a deal involving Staal is seeming more and more likely. He's the best (only?) shot for gaining a scoring winger, while maintaining the deep talent at the blue line.

EDIT: Notice how the "we don't need another winger" crowd has just about disappeared?



I think you're generalizing some peoples opinions together. Many people feel that we don't need another winger this season (I am one of them), assuming Satan, Fedotenko, and Sykora stay healthy. That doesn't mean we wouldn't like one, it just means we don't think now is the right time. We, along with Shero, knew there would be lots of turnover this past offseason. That turnover brings many issues with it, and barring a miracle with Hossa, Shero and all of us knew we'd be "bandaiding" this season preparing for the future. That's what happens when you reach the cup with a team full of UFA\RFAs, especially after giving up assets to get there in the first place.

Many of us would rather this team play itself out rather than Shero try and give up more assets for a "proven" NHL winger, 2 seasons in a row. Especially with the draft class being as deep and talented as it is. That's why if we try and make any major moves I'd rather it be after the season in an attempt to move up into the top 10-12 in the draft, instead of before the deadline trying to bring in another winger.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby Pens4Life on Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:53 pm

pcm wrote:
DelPen wrote:Simple answer is force Staal to play wing. Have him play with Crosby for the rest of the year stick with it. Do it when Zigomanis comes back as he will be fine with the increased role on the 3rd line. That leaves this lineup when everyone is healthy:

Staal-Crosby-Satan
Fedotenko-Malkin-Sykora
Cooke-Zigomanis-Kennedy
Dupuis-Talbot-Godard

The wing problem shouldn't even exist with the roster we have.


The only reason I can see that this hasn't been tried since Staal got his game back is that management thinks he's more effective as a 3rd center. I can't necessarily argue, since it gives this team unparralled strength down the middle. And we were seeing the rewards of having 3 lines that could put the puck in the net, until Kennedy went down.

But if you're thinking of trading Staal for a winger, it's utterly retarded barring a contract impasse when you've got a 25-30 goal scorer with the frame of Mario Lemieux at the ripe old age of 20 sitting on your roster.

The Red Line is set. Staal has never ever played with Crosby. I would put him there for 20 games and see how things produce. He can still play as a swing wing/center depending on matchups, but you need to establish that familiarity. I would also give Kennedy the chance to supplant Satan in the depth chart.

Tank-Malkin-Sykora
Staal-Crosby-Kennedy/Satan
Cooke-Talbot-Satan/Kennedy
Dupuis-Zigo-Godard

That to me is a forward group without any serious holes.


Dupuis is a better player than a 4th liner,he is between 2nd - 3rd line LW..
Staal should be tested as LW with Sid very soon,to see if they can click,if JS can actually play as good winger.. It would be shame to trade him for a rental winger and then even loose rental once again. Staal is good 3rd line C,will develop more,but we need him a lot more on wing.. If he cant produce there,well then is probably hit the road jack via trade.. We really cant afford to pay 3rd liners 3mills per year or more.. We have Talbot,Zigomanis,Jeffrey,Taffe for 3rd-4th line C duty.. And with Pierre-Zabotel,Veilleux down the road,we really need to test Jordan as winger
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby Sarcastic on Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:58 pm

I also was for keeping Staal on the wing for a long time, but I don't think he feels comfortable there. Plus, his size is a non-factor. He isn't a physical player like Lucic. He's a huge pussycat who won't crash the net or get in people's faces. This honestly is a personality thing with him - some people just like the rough stuff from the day they are born. Staal is just super nice, so good luck turning him into a power forward.
Last edited by Sarcastic on Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby Bob McKenzie on Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:58 pm

I'd like to keep Staal. Yes, it's a luxury to have him, but that's our luxury.

I'd rather give up a low round #1 pick, a #2, and/or prospect to get a winger than give up Staal. When Staal puts his game together, he's going to be really good. That may not be this year. It could be next year or the year after. He gives us a formidable 3rd line and is money in the playoffs. He's definitely the kind of guy I want on a playoff team.

Why trade Staal for a winger when you can give up a #1, #2 and/or prospect for a great winger? For those that say, you can't keep trading draft picks away, I say you have a high #1 pick that is 20 years old and is a known commodity with a high upside. Why not trade the picks since who knows what they will be in the future. Go back in the 90's after Jagr, Straka, and Naslund, and see where those #1 picks are. Those players were bums.

Plus, our WBS talent looks bleak because everyone has moved up to the NHL. Isn't that what we wanted? Sure, we could have WBS filled with Staal, Letang, Goligoski, Kennedy, etc, but they are players that make us better now.

Put Staal on Sid's line for 20 games like someone mentioned above. See how he does then. He could develop into that PF winger that every team covets. Staal may not rock you with body checks but he's one of the best in the league at using his frame to control the puck. He's only going to get better at it.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Dec 29, 2008 3:59 pm

I would have no problem with Kennedy on top line. I could see him there if there was a real top line player that was also willing to do work on the other wing.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby Sarcastic on Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:03 pm

Bob McKenzie wrote:Why trade Staal for a winger when you can give up a #1, #2 and/or prospect for a great winger?


Because we have a salary cap. Would I like to have Staal centering the 3rd? Sure, why not (from the hockey standpoint). But not if it means having Crosby having to struggle with mediocre wingers.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby Bob McKenzie on Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:05 pm

Sarcastic wrote:
Bob McKenzie wrote:Why trade Staal for a winger when you can give up a #1, #2 and/or prospect for a great winger?


Because we have a salary cap. Would I like to have Staal centering the 3rd? Sure, why not. But not if it means having Crosby having to struggle with mediocre wingers.


How do you know what Staal is going to sign for? Don't you think if you trade Staal for a high scoring winger, that person is going to command a high salary as well? Probably higher than Staal's?

Staal is on pace for 48 points this year. He may get $3.5m tops. I'd surely rather have Staal on my team than Miro "the ghost" Satan.

Again, you can try Staal on Sid's line as well.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby Sarcastic on Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:06 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:I would have no problem with Kennedy on top line. I could see him there if there was a real top line player that was also willing to do work on the other wing.


You know, at this point, I'd be willing to try anything. Put Staal and Kennedy on Sid's wing and see what happens. What harm could it do... we could lose a game? Well, we're losing games already. :pop:

Hey, the popcorn dude is back.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby Bob McKenzie on Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:07 pm

Sarcastic wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:I would have no problem with Kennedy on top line. I could see him there if there was a real top line player that was also willing to do work on the other wing.


You know, at this point, I'd be willing to try anything. Put Staal and Kennedy on Sid's wing and see what happens. What harm could it do... we could lose a game? Well, we're losing games already. :pop:

Hey, the popcorn dude is back.


I agree. I'd love to see Kennedy on Sid's line. When Kennedy came up last year, didn't he play on Sid's line and score a bunch of goals to start out?

Staal - Sid - Kennedy
Tank - Geno - Sykora
Cooke - Talbot - Dupuis

I know I'd rather have Kennedy on the #1 line than Satan.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby Idoit40fans on Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:08 pm

Sarcastic wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:I would have no problem with Kennedy on top line. I could see him there if there was a real top line player that was also willing to do work on the other wing.


You know, at this point, I'd be willing to try anything. Put Staal and Kennedy on Sid's wing and see what happens. What harm could it do... we could lose a game? Well, we're losing games already. :pop:

Hey, the popcorn dude is back.


I'm really annoyed that Staal hasn't been given a real shot at wing this year. He isn't as slow as everyone thinks he is, he can do great board work, and he'd take up space that'd potentially make Satan more available.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby Bob McKenzie on Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:09 pm

Bob McKenzie wrote:
I know I'd rather have Kennedy on the #1 line Miro "the neutral zone anchor" Satan.


Fix'd :twisted:
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