good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby KG on Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:10 pm

Bob McKenzie wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:
Bob McKenzie wrote:Why trade Staal for a winger when you can give up a #1, #2 and/or prospect for a great winger?


Because we have a salary cap. Would I like to have Staal centering the 3rd? Sure, why not. But not if it means having Crosby having to struggle with mediocre wingers.


How do you know what Staal is going to sign for? Don't you think if you trade Staal for a high scoring winger, that person is going to command a high salary as well? Probably higher than Staal's?

Staal is on pace for 48 points this year. He may get $3.5m tops. I'd surely rather have Staal on my team than Miro "the ghost" Satan.

Again, you can try Staal on Sid's line as well.



I think that's why Shero won't deal Staal during the season, if at all. The market value for Staal has to be determined first...I actually would be surprised if Shero doesn't sign Staal before he is a RFA July 1...
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby Sarcastic on Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:10 pm

Bob McKenzie wrote:How do you know what Staal is going to sign for? Don't you think if you trade Staal for a high scoring winger, that person is going to command a high salary as well? Probably higher than Staal's?

Staal is on pace for 48 points this year. He may get $3.5m tops. I'd surely rather have Staal on my team than Miro "the ghost" Satan.

Again, you can try Staal on Sid's line as well.


As I said above, sure, let's try Staal with Sidney. I think I wanted to do that early this season. Or even last year. But I don't think Staal alone is the answer. He could be a pussycat version of Boston's Lucic (meaning, he'll produce points, minus the physical play), but he'd never be Sidney's main winger. We'd still need to get an actual shooter on his line - and that will cost $.

But sure... let's see what happens. Put him with Sid for the time being.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby Why So Serious? on Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:12 pm

Idoit40fans wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:I would have no problem with Kennedy on top line. I could see him there if there was a real top line player that was also willing to do work on the other wing.


You know, at this point, I'd be willing to try anything. Put Staal and Kennedy on Sid's wing and see what happens. What harm could it do... we could lose a game? Well, we're losing games already. :pop:

Hey, the popcorn dude is back.


I'm really annoyed that Staal hasn't been given a real shot at wing this year. He isn't as slow as everyone thinks he is, he can do great board work, and he'd take up space that'd potentially make Satan more available.


I've always felt the same exact way. He skates with those long strides and because he isn't moving his feet like Kennedy or Dupuis, people think he is so slow. But in reality, Staal is faster than most people think. And I completely agree with you here Idoit. Crosby can be the playmaker, Staal can be the mucker, grinder, big body on the line, and Satan can be the sniper on that line. I've always liked Dupuis and really love the way he has been playing, but I think Staal's game complements Sid's game much better than Dupuis' game.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby KG on Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:17 pm

Hedjuk would be someone the pens should target and he shouldn't cost a boat load (staal)...He is signed for $4MM next year...
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby bhaw on Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:24 pm

KG wrote:Hedjuk would be someone the pens should target and he shouldn't cost a boat load (staal)...He is signed for $4MM next year...


That was someone I just threw out there in one of my other posts. Colorado is one of the few partners that makes sense. They need centers and a goalie. Their D isn't phenomenal either. A lot of options.

Still, you can't trade Staal until you know if he can play a wing this year. It would be dumb to trade a 20 year old capable of playing wing and center for a much older guy who will cost more. Even if he can't play wing, it's still a tough decision.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby purelebo84 on Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:36 pm

joker10277 wrote:
purelebo84 wrote:
meecrofilm wrote:I'd hit up Staal, Gogo, and a 2nd for Brad Boyes. But I don't think that one'll happen.

Or,

Staal and a 2nd for Brad Boyes.


I think you guys are underestimating the value staal has to a team that doesn't have sid and geno as their top centers. Staal alone should bring back Boyes plus Picks or players. Remember Boyes was traded for Wideman.

Staal would be St. Louis' best center (at least while MacD is out), and a Staal-Berglund 1-2 punch down the middle would be very nice.

Staal alone might not get it done, but Staal + picks could do it.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby E 14 Hornblower on Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:42 pm

Just one question for the people wanting to let Staal walk with the offer sheet? How do you plan on signing these 4 1st round draft picks and keep them under the cap?
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby Pens4Life on Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:52 pm

KG wrote:Hedjuk would be someone the pens should target and he shouldn't cost a boat load (staal)...He is signed for $4MM next year...


What he is signed for 4mills only? Well that is really good price for someone like Hejduk,if you compare him to SAtan and only 0.500k raise,there is no doubt at all.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby joker10277 on Mon Dec 29, 2008 4:52 pm

E 14 Hornblower wrote:Just one question for the people wanting to let Staal walk with the offer sheet? How do you plan on signing these 4 1st round draft picks and keep them under the cap?


First : there is a cap on first contracts.

Second: the picks would be spread out over 4 years.

Third: they would have to make the nhl first to count against the cap.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby Pens4Life on Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:14 pm

Staal to Blues doesnt make sense,Blues are filled with C already(tkachuk,berglund,mcdonald,steen..) they dont have wingers,soo it doesnt make sense to aquire another center for winger. If Staal and Satan went to Blues for Boyes and maybe gritty Winchester would be more logical,but it wont happen anyway.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby Daniel87 on Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:23 pm

The Penguins don’t need the best third-line center in hockey. They don’t need five offensive defensemen. Trade luxuries for necessities.


I completely agree. As much as I love the fact of having great young D like Whitney, Gogo, and Letang, we don't need all of them. Also Staal is a wonderful person to have at 3rd line center. He would clearly be the best for many years to come. But with the salary cap era, the Pens need a good winger or 2 to be playing with Malkin and Crosby. I know the Pens organization keeps saying that they want Staal here long term, but I'm beginning to believe that it will be more worth it longterm, if we let him go.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby KG on Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:28 pm

Pens4Life wrote:Staal to Blues doesnt make sense,Blues are filled with C already(tkachuk,berglund,mcdonald,steen..) they dont have wingers,soo it doesnt make sense to aquire another center for winger. If Staal and Satan went to Blues for Boyes and maybe gritty Winchester would be more logical,but it wont happen anyway.


Tkachuk is really a LW and is a UFA at seasons end.
Mcdonald is a UFA at seasons end

The blues would LOVE to have Staal...I don't want to trade him for Boyes though...
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby AlexPKeaton on Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:29 pm

I absolutely *do not* want Staal traded for a rental. Also, I *do not* want to trade Staal, under almost any circumstances, if he is willing to take less than ~3.5mil/per.

Also, I think our offensive problems are going to be miraculously solved once Gonchar gets back. I think getting our elite PP QB is going to make the need for elite wingers significantly less.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby Noise on Mon Dec 29, 2008 5:39 pm

Bob McKenzie wrote:
Sarcastic wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:I would have no problem with Kennedy on top line. I could see him there if there was a real top line player that was also willing to do work on the other wing.


You know, at this point, I'd be willing to try anything. Put Staal and Kennedy on Sid's wing and see what happens. What harm could it do... we could lose a game? Well, we're losing games already. :pop:

Hey, the popcorn dude is back.


I agree. I'd love to see Kennedy on Sid's line. When Kennedy came up last year, didn't he play on Sid's line and score a bunch of goals to start out?

Staal - Sid - Kennedy
Tank - Geno - Sykora
Cooke - Talbot - Dupuis

I know I'd rather have Kennedy on the #1 line than Satan.


Yes
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby holeinone on Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:07 pm

They could have had Blake Wheeler if they had pursued him. Don't understand why they would not have at least tried. He went to Univ of Minn and was a good scorer there. He has got 14 goals I think and would not have cost them anything in return. As weak as they are at wing they missed the boat on him
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby Bob McKenzie on Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:10 pm

Hejduk is not the same player we've watched over the years. Think of Sykora now except he gets open a bit more and shoots the puck more. A lot of Hejduk's stats were due to Sakic being phenomenal and the likes of Deadmarsh and others to balance that line. I don't think he's the answer although he'd be an major upgrade over Satan.

I like Hejduk but I wouldn't expect him to come in here and be a superstar.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby Bob McKenzie on Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:11 pm

holeinone wrote:They could have had Blake Wheeler if they had pursued him. Don't understand why they would not have at least tried. He went to Univ of Minn and was a good scorer there. He has got 14 goals I think and would not have cost them anything in return. As weak as they are at wing they missed the boat on him


Hindsight is 20/20.

From my understanding, it was Wheeler that set the terms for which team he was going to play for.

I think it was down to 4: the Rags, Boston, NJ, and Dallas.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby pcm on Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:20 pm

If we're looking at Colorado, Wolski is a much better option than Hejduk. He's young, big, got nice hands and rather than being on the downside of his career, can develop with the team.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby Pens4Life on Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:27 pm

KG wrote:
Pens4Life wrote:Staal to Blues doesnt make sense,Blues are filled with C already(tkachuk,berglund,mcdonald,steen..) they dont have wingers,soo it doesnt make sense to aquire another center for winger. If Staal and Satan went to Blues for Boyes and maybe gritty Winchester would be more logical,but it wont happen anyway.


Tkachuk is really a LW and is a UFA at seasons end.
Mcdonald is a UFA at seasons end

The blues would LOVE to have Staal...I don't want to trade him for Boyes though...


I knew Keith played LW and as he was listed as C-- I thought that Blues moved him there..
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby Bob McKenzie on Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:35 pm

Tkachuk would be horrid.

Shanahan would add 10x to this team with leadership and have the same PP capabilities.

Tkachuk 10 years ago would be fine.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby Geezer on Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:36 pm

Well, it's an article and it's by Madden. I suppose the "good" part part is that you agree that we should be trading Staal, Goligoski and LeTang for some fantasy league wingers. I'm confident that Shero is smarter than Madden.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby Nizzy on Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:39 pm

If Staal signs an offer sheet, taking the Picks won't be the worst thing ever.

I agree/disagree at the same time with Madden about "Winning is now"

HOWEVER

Look at Datsyuk/Zetterberg. They just won the cup and they are mid-to-late 20's. If we take more picks, let some more players develop we will still be fine.

I think the Pens are still going to be good easily for a solid 5-6 years no matter what happens.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby meecrofilm on Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:59 pm

KG wrote:
Pens4Life wrote:Staal to Blues doesnt make sense,Blues are filled with C already(tkachuk,berglund,mcdonald,steen..) they dont have wingers,soo it doesnt make sense to aquire another center for winger. If Staal and Satan went to Blues for Boyes and maybe gritty Winchester would be more logical,but it wont happen anyway.


Tkachuk is really a LW and is a UFA at seasons end.
Mcdonald is a UFA at seasons end

The blues would LOVE to have Staal...I don't want to trade him for Boyes though...


Don't get me wrong, I'm not an advocate of the "get rid of staal, he's not enough / not worth the money" camp. But if that deal were available straight up you do it in a heartbeat. 43 goals last year, and he's on pacae to do just about the same this year, but finish with a lot more total points. He's signed for a relatively cheap contract (4 mil and change) for the next 4 years I believe. Which for a 40 goal scorer these days is almost robbery. Plus he's played with Sid before and they seemed to work well then (not saying that means it would work now, but it's at least encouraging). That's why Staal alone wouldn't net Boyes, or that deal would've been made already. I'm not a fan of playing armchair GM, since really, I don't know more than the people actually running the show, but if Staal and Gogo (or Staal and a pick) would get you Boyes, I'd definitely be in favor of that trade.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby Bob McKenzie on Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:17 pm

Nizzy wrote:If Staal signs an offer sheet, taking the Picks won't be the worst thing ever.

I agree/disagree at the same time with Madden about "Winning is now"

HOWEVER

Look at Datsyuk/Zetterberg. They just won the cup and they are mid-to-late 20's. If we take more picks, let some more players develop we will still be fine.

I think the Pens are still going to be good easily for a solid 5-6 years no matter what happens.


I get where Madden is going with the article about that point. Detroit could find themselves having serious issues with being "major" competitors for the cup if Zetterberg doesn't resign with Detroit. What are the odds? Who knows. What I do know is that Ken Holland has made it a point in the past that no one has gotten paid more than Steve Yzerman. He did the same thing with Hossa in stating that no one is getting paid more than Lidstrom.

Zetterberg is 28 years old. This is likely his only time to sign a big payday for long-term (should he choose a long-term deal).

Franzen is most likely going to test the UFA market (and he'd be magic with Sid) :twisted:

Someone is going to offer Hossa the bank as well (and also he's in the same situation as Zetterberg withthe big payday for long-term contract.

Madden's point is, we have a window to win from now and for the next few years. So, go for it. It's not about being solid, but about winning it all. Gary Roberts made a good point to the players last year. He won the SC as a young player for the Calgary Flames. He never imagined it would take him 19 or 20 years later just to get to the Stanley Cup again.

I feel the same way. If we can win it by adding some players (like we did in the early 90's) then it paid off. Those cup teams were instrumental in the franchise, the community and so forth. No one cares about the team in 93' that was better but lost.
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Re: good article from Mark Madden on Pens wing situation

Postby profpolisci on Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:46 pm

All's I got to add is that I miss you Madden....... as good as you are, I can't get with that format of yours.
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