Here's a deadline "what if" scenario (just for fun)

Forum for Pittsburgh Penguins-related messages.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Re: Here's a deadline "what if" scenario (just for fun)

Postby sina220 on Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:00 pm

Noise wrote:Just say no to trading Letang or Kennedy
I'd trade Goligoski before either one of them

Also that package for Antropov is hideous overpayment. The dude's a rental. And he's no Hossa. Why people keep comparing him and Horton value wise is beyond me. Horton's signed to a bargain contract for the next 4 years. Antropov's is an upcoming UFA.

Antropov's best season was last year and he had 56 pts. Hossa had one full season where he got less than 56 pts. And Hossa's a great defensive winger as well.

No way the pens pay a 1st + Letang or Kennedy for Antropov. That's a better than last years package for Hossa. Letang > Esposito, 1st 2009 > 1st 2008, and Armstrong and Christensen are worthless.



The point of trading for Antropov would be to re-sign him, probably for right around what Horton is paid, in the 4-4.5 mil range. We can't afford anyone more expensive, and you're not going to pry good players from teams without overpaying in trades, it's reality, not stupidity by the GMs. Antropov put up 56 points in 72 games last season, or roughly .7778 pts/game, good for 63 in an 82 game season. He's got 30 in 37 games this season, .81 pts/game. On pace for 66 points.

Horton only has 15 points in 27 games played this season, .55pts/game. On pace for only 45 points this 82 game season. And his career best is only 62 points in 82 games.

So how exactly is Horton a better Bargain than Antropov? He's having a much worse season this year that Antropov and hasn't really done anything to set himself apart. Antropov is 4 inches taller, has just entered his prime, and if you've seen any of him the past 2 years, he's really matured into an offensive force. They're almost exactly the same as far as the production you'd get, and Antropov is no defensive slouch either. Plus you get a mentally matured player in his prime with Antropov, who is 4 inches and 10 lbs bigger.

It depends on what your preference is I guess, youth or maturity, but to say...
"that package for Antropov is hideous overpayment. The dude's a rental. And he's no Hossa. Why people keep comparing him and Horton value wise is beyond me. Horton's signed to a bargain contract for the next 4 years." is quite ridiculous when you look at the facts.
sina220
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 479
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:02 pm
Location: "I believe in GOD, only I spell it N.A.T.U.R.E." ~ F.L. Wright

Re: Here's a deadline "what if" scenario (just for fun)

Postby Idoit40fans on Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:11 pm

Malkin0017 wrote:How about this trade scenario:

Pens trade Staal, Goligoski, and a pick to the Blues for Brad Boyes and Barrett Jackman or another player instead of Jackman.

or

Staal, GoGo, and a 1st rounder in 2010 for Kovalchuk??

Also remember they signed Talbot before they signed Staal. Could that mean that they might be using Max at 3rd line center??


They also signed Whitney before they signed Crosby. If you read between the lines, Crosby to Toronto for Antropov and a first.
Idoit40fans
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 53,623
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:42 pm
Location: I'm sorry you feel that way

Re: Here's a deadline "what if" scenario (just for fun)

Postby Noise on Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:29 pm

sina220 wrote:
Noise wrote:Just say no to trading Letang or Kennedy
I'd trade Goligoski before either one of them

Also that package for Antropov is hideous overpayment. The dude's a rental. And he's no Hossa. Why people keep comparing him and Horton value wise is beyond me. Horton's signed to a bargain contract for the next 4 years. Antropov's is an upcoming UFA.

Antropov's best season was last year and he had 56 pts. Hossa had one full season where he got less than 56 pts. And Hossa's a great defensive winger as well.

No way the pens pay a 1st + Letang or Kennedy for Antropov. That's a better than last years package for Hossa. Letang > Esposito, 1st 2009 > 1st 2008, and Armstrong and Christensen are worthless.



The point of trading for Antropov would be to re-sign him, probably for right around what Horton is paid, in the 4-4.5 mil range. We can't afford anyone more expensive, and you're not going to pry good players from teams without overpaying in trades, it's reality, not stupidity by the GMs. Antropov put up 56 points in 72 games last season, or roughly .7778 pts/game, good for 63 in an 82 game season. He's got 30 in 37 games this season, .81 pts/game. On pace for 66 points.

Horton only has 15 points in 27 games played this season, .55pts/game. On pace for only 45 points this 82 game season. And his career best is only 62 points in 82 games.

So how exactly is Horton a better Bargain than Antropov? He's having a much worse season this year that Antropov and hasn't really done anything to set himself apart. Antropov is 4 inches taller, has just entered his prime, and if you've seen any of him the past 2 years, he's really matured into an offensive force. They're almost exactly the same as far as the production you'd get, and Antropov is no defensive slouch either. Plus you get a mentally matured player in his prime with Antropov, who is 4 inches and 10 lbs bigger.

It depends on what your preference is I guess, youth or maturity, but to say...
"that package for Antropov is hideous overpayment. The dude's a rental. And he's no Hossa. Why people keep comparing him and Horton value wise is beyond me. Horton's signed to a bargain contract for the next 4 years." is quite ridiculous when you look at the facts.


Horton's a better value because he's signed longer at a decent price. There's no guarantee that the Pens would re-sign Antropov. People said we'd resign Hossa.

The fact is: Antropov = UFA after this season, Horton isn't. You have to treat Antropov's value as that of a rental whether or not you think you can re-sign him. These trade and sign things are shaky and very unrealistic. We don't know how Antropov would fit in here, or if he'd want to stay. Maybe he'd go back to Toronto after this season. You just don't know, and it's ridiculous to pay that much for a guy that you may only have for 2 months and who's never scored more than 30 goals in a season. Horton's younger, signed longer for cheaper than Antropov, and while smaller, he's had two 60 pt seasons. Playing with Olli Jokinen helped him out obviously. Right now he's not doing well because Florida's all defense and goalie and no offense. Who's he creating space for? Who's feeding him the puck?
Noise
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,439
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:35 am

Re: Here's a deadline "what if" scenario (just for fun)

Postby Noise on Wed Dec 31, 2008 4:52 pm

Horton's also a much better goal scorer- Antropov's had one season where he's scored more than 20 goals, Horton's had 28, 27, and 31 goal seasons. Antropov's also never played a full 82 game season, Horton has 2 of which.
Noise
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,439
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:35 am

Re: Here's a deadline "what if" scenario (just for fun)

Postby holeinone on Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:26 pm

Why would you want anothe high end player What this team needs is some well rounded players that will work together. You can't have all superstars and win because you have a salary cap You need players that fit in with the stars and i guess it is like life. High class Low class You need the middle class to make it work and the Pens are sorely lacking on the middle class
holeinone
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,155
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2007 11:30 pm

Re: Here's a deadline "what if" scenario (just for fun)

Postby Noise on Wed Dec 31, 2008 5:43 pm

Did you seriously just ask why we'd want Tavares or Kane?

Sure, even if we couldn't afford to keep them, after 3 years you let them walk for picks or trade them. You'd still have 3 years of bargain.

There's no such thing as drafting too many future superstars.

People brought this up when they were talking about Staal getting the Pens 4 1sts (which he wouldn't, would probably only get the Pens a 1st, 2nd, and a 3rd compensation.) Someone asked how the Pens could afford to keep all of them? Well you don't. The point is you have them help you while they're on entry level deals and then trade them/let them walk as an RFA for more assets.
Noise
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,439
Joined: Sun Nov 05, 2006 2:35 am

Re: Here's a deadline "what if" scenario (just for fun)

Postby WWGRD on Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:35 pm

I'm sure this has been mentioned before..

What about Staal and one of Whitney/Letang/Goligoski for Horton and Booth?

Horton-Crosby-Dupuis
Booth-Malkin-Sykora
WWGRD
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 3,699
Joined: Tue Nov 27, 2007 4:41 pm
Location: Pittsburgh, PA - Follow @EricP55

Re: Here's a deadline "what if" scenario (just for fun)

Postby sina220 on Wed Dec 31, 2008 10:08 pm

Noise wrote:
Horton's a better value because he's signed longer at a decent price. There's no guarantee that the Pens would re-sign Antropov. People said we'd resign Hossa.

The fact is: Antropov = UFA after this season, Horton isn't. You have to treat Antropov's value as that of a rental whether or not you think you can re-sign him. These trade and sign things are shaky and very unrealistic. We don't know how Antropov would fit in here, or if he'd want to stay. Maybe he'd go back to Toronto after this season. You just don't know, and it's ridiculous to pay that much for a guy that you may only have for 2 months and who's never scored more than 30 goals in a season. Horton's younger, signed longer for cheaper than Antropov, and while smaller, he's had two 60 pt seasons. Playing with Olli Jokinen helped him out obviously. Right now he's not doing well because Florida's all defense and goalie and no offense. Who's he creating space for? Who's feeding him the puck?


Horton may be signed to a fairly reasonable deal but that doesn't really make him that much more valuable. If anything it may decrease his value from the perspective of our GM, as it would cost more to attain Horton than it would Antropov due to that contract. As far as what you'd get in production on the ice, it's just about even offensively, but if you look back over the past few seasons Antropov flat out blocks a lot more shots, has a lot more takeaways, and even considerably more hits.

Horton is also much less likely to be moved compared to Antropov, which throws another kink into your plan that you haven't even discussed. Re-signing Antropov also wouldn't be that hard, he's not a huge ticket FA and he has already signed several short-term "cheap" contracts, leading one to believe he isn't too concerned with making top dollar, which would only be about 5.5 million for him or Horton anyhow. As far as him returning to Toronto, if he's dealt it's because Burke is purging the team of veterans and rebuilding, so it's highly doubtful he could go back if he's dealt.

Like I said before it really comes down to if you prefer Antropov's size or Horton's age, keeping in mind your looking at needing Kennedy or Dupuis + a 1st + a minor leaguer for Antropov but a Goligoski or Letang + a 1st + a minor leaguer for Horton. You can argue those trades all you want but that's about what it will take to get either of them. For my money I'm taking the extra defensive play, experience, and 4 inches with Antropov. But as I've said many times before, I'd rather trade up in the draft this year instead of for a player, but if we're going for a player I think Antropov is the best option and probably the most available.
sina220
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 479
Joined: Wed Oct 29, 2008 4:02 pm
Location: "I believe in GOD, only I spell it N.A.T.U.R.E." ~ F.L. Wright

Previous

Return to Pittsburgh Penguins

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Dan H and 16 guests


e-mail