Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf
KG wrote:Another thought...I'm not sure if I would have locked up Staal yet. He has been average this year. We still don't know what we have with Staal yet. Maybe let the year play out a little more and see how his offensive game comes around?
If his long term role here is top line wing, then I think we should put him there first before we lock him up for 4 years. Because if he can't handle it, then it is overpayment...It's a very tough call. He is not worth $4MM right now, he may be or he may not be...Glad it's not my money...
pulp22 wrote:I think it might work out well. We have other positions to trade from, like d
Daniel87 wrote:pulp22 wrote:I think it might work out well. We have other positions to trade from, like d
But now there is a 4 mil cap hit on Staal. We can't afford much anyway past this year.
wallflower wrote:This thread has disintegrated into absolute ridiculousness. How sad.
wallflower wrote:This thread = absolute ridiculousness. How sad.
poisonfan2003 wrote:Shero has shown he can collect talent, he has not proven he can build a team.
Defence21 wrote:PLAYER A
Season 1, age 18: 82 GP, 13 G, 15 A, 28 Pts, -19
Season 2, age 19: 80 GP, 25 G, 42 A, 67 Pts, -25
Season 3, age 20: 68 GP, 23 G, 28 A, 51 Pts, -26
First 29-goal season: year 5, age 22
PLAYER B
Season 1, age 18: 55 GP, 3 G, 4 A, 7 Pts, -6
Season 2, age 19: 81 GP, 16 G, 25 A, 41 Pts, +3
Season 3, age 20: 81 GP, 23 G, 37 A, 60 Pts, -5
First 29-goal season: year 4, age 21
STAAL
Season 1, age 18: 81 GP, 29 G, 13 A, 42 Pts, +16
Season 2, age 19: 82 GP, 12 G, 16 A, 28 Pts, -5
Season 3, age 20: 41 GP, 11 G, 10 A, 21 Pts, -5
Player A is Vinny Lecavalier. Player B is Joe Thornton. Is Staal really that far off?
It's kind of ridiculous when people look at a 20-year-old and act as if he is a finished product. 95% of players his age are, at the very best, in their first year of professional hockey. Many others are still in college or juniors. Staal already has a 29-goal season under his belt. And, before anyone discounts it -- IT HAPPENED. It proves he can...he just needs to develop into that type of player consistently.
EDIT:
To do some math:
Lecavalier had 146 points and was -70 in his first three seasons
Thornton had 108 points and was -8 in his first three seasons.
So far, Staal has amassed 91 points and is +6 in his first 2 1/2 seasons, with 41 more games to go.
Dr. J wrote:This is a good move. Right now, Staal is the third best forward on the team. And he is only 20. 20!!! I cant believe how many people on this board want to trade him! He is going to be a great power forward; he will add more mass to his frame and get quicker on his feet. He already possesses great stick-handling skills and knows precisely where to be on the back check. Just everyone please have some patience!
71 wrote:
The problem with this line of thinking is Thornton was a 60 PT producer by his 3rd season and Lecavalier was a 67 PT player in his second. Also, and IMO more importantly, they showed the ability to dominate inferior talent in juniors and displayed the hockey skills needed to be a force at the next level. Very rarely do guys become a dominant player at NHL level when they weren't one in juniors or the minor leagues.
Junior Stats at age 16 and 17
Vinny Lecavalier- (QMJHL) GP-122 G-86 A-132 PTS-218
Joe Thornton- (OHL) GP-125 G-71 A-127 PTS-198
Jordan Staal- (OHL) GP-134 G-37 A-59 PTS-98
How is this even comparable? In more games played Jordan had less than half as many points as both of these guys. Lecavalier and Thornton have vision and a remarkable ability to make a pass where one doesn't appear to be and Staal doesn't.
The major issue I have with Staal's new contract is RS is overestimating what Staal's ceiling is, more based on Staal's size and name then on projectable NHL ability, and thus gave this kid no chance to match the expectations that come with such a contract. This coupled with Staal's fluky rookie year where he scored on 22.1% of his shots, not sustainable by anyone let alone someone with an average shot at best by NHL standards, left most people to have ridiculous expectations for a kid who scored only 37 goals over 2 years playing in the OHL. Certain hockey skills are ingrained and are not really able to be taught. Vision of the ice, a quick release on your shot, creativity with the puck, and being able to anticipate how a play will develop are just some of these characteristics and Staal doesn't have them.
I know he isn't a finished product and I hope I'm wrong, but I can't see Staal living up to this contract. He has potential but not as much as some people think, the last time he had seventy points in a season he was 15, and I think RS reached on this one.
Cosmo_kramer wrote:Let's talk realistically here... Staal would be a top line center on the majority of other teams in this league...
Pens15 wrote:71 wrote:
The problem with this line of thinking is Thornton was a 60 PT producer by his 3rd season and Lecavalier was a 67 PT player in his second. Also, and IMO more importantly, they showed the ability to dominate inferior talent in juniors and displayed the hockey skills needed to be a force at the next level. Very rarely do guys become a dominant player at NHL level when they weren't one in juniors or the minor leagues.
Junior Stats at age 16 and 17
Vinny Lecavalier- (QMJHL) GP-122 G-86 A-132 PTS-218
Joe Thornton- (OHL) GP-125 G-71 A-127 PTS-198
Jordan Staal- (OHL) GP-134 G-37 A-59 PTS-98
How is this even comparable? In more games played Jordan had less than half as many points as both of these guys. Lecavalier and Thornton have vision and a remarkable ability to make a pass where one doesn't appear to be and Staal doesn't.
The major issue I have with Staal's new contract is RS is overestimating what Staal's ceiling is, more based on Staal's size and name then on projectable NHL ability, and thus gave this kid no chance to match the expectations that come with such a contract. This coupled with Staal's fluky rookie year where he scored on 22.1% of his shots, not sustainable by anyone let alone someone with an average shot at best by NHL standards, left most people to have ridiculous expectations for a kid who scored only 37 goals over 2 years playing in the OHL. Certain hockey skills are ingrained and are not really able to be taught. Vision of the ice, a quick release on your shot, creativity with the puck, and being able to anticipate how a play will develop are just some of these characteristics and Staal doesn't have them.
I know he isn't a finished product and I hope I'm wrong, but I can't see Staal living up to this contract. He has potential but not as much as some people think, the last time he had seventy points in a season he was 15, and I think RS reached on this one.
You make some great points. I basically agree, Staal really does not have that much offensive talent, at least not enough to justify being the second overall pick. And the comparisons to Big Joe and Vinny are flawed, as you demonstrate.
I only pause because Staal does show flashes of elite caliber talent, albeit rarely. He can undress defenders with stick-handling, remember that goal against Philly his rookie year?. Remember that pass he made to Dupuis in the Islander blow-out game this year for a goal? It was so beautiful that I still think it must have been an accident.
95% of the time he plods along though.
2headedmonster8771 wrote:Ok Staal would be a top line center on the majority of OTHER teams...
So what does that do for us??? Is that supposed to make me feel any better about the signing??? Because it doesnt.
The only thing I see is we now have about 23 million invested in centers--and hardly anything on legit wingers. Its going to come back and kill us.
The U wrote:Anyone in favor of this extension better never show their faces in the ACQUIRE A WINGER!!! threads. If you're paying 4 million to a 3rd liner, you can't afford to bring in line 1 wingers. Real line 1 wingers...not Satan-clones. I like Staal but not at 4 mil. I can think of about 15 other 3rd line centers we could sign for about 1 million-2 million who would bring the same stuff as Staal would to the team.
I don't think Staal's speed, hitting, mean streak, play-making, or goal scoring will improve. He's a defensive center right now and I don't see that changing. Those types of guys can be grabbed each and every offseason for a fraction of the cost.
skullman80 wrote:Staal would not be a top line center on most other teams in the league. I'm sorry but he wouldn't. He's not anywhere near there yet. He's not good enough to carry his own line in a top 6 role.
To be a top line center you have to be able to score, which he can't hit the broadside of a barn most nights, and be able to set up others, and Staal lacks big time in that area as well.
I want the kid to succeed, and I really hope he does because this team is going to need him to turn into a top 6 winger, and not be a 3rd line center if they are going to pay him this kind of money over the long haul.
I hope this deal works out, I really do, but I have my doubts... just have to wait and see though.
Cosmo_kramer wrote:Yea, Eismenn, that's ironically not realistic.Sorry.
I was more trying to make a point.
2headedmonster8771 wrote:Ok Staal would be a top line center on the majority of OTHER teams...
So what does that do for us??? Is that supposed to make me feel any better about the signing??? Because it doesnt.
The only thing I see is we now have about 23 million invested in centers--and hardly anything on legit wingers. Its going to come back and kill us.
You do realize we have two of the top centers in the league, yes? I'm not saying you can't use Staal as trade-bait (I'm for it if the right deal comes), and this contract makes him more interesting to teams, but you can't use him being a third-line center on a team with 'two of the top centers in the league' as an excuse to argue he's a bust. He could be a 35 goal-scorer and he'd still be the third best center on the team. That was my argument.. Bust related, not trade related.