Pens sign Staal to a 4 year deal!!!

Forum for Pittsburgh Penguins-related messages.

Moderators: Three Stars, dagny, pfim, netwolf

Re: Pens sign Staal to a 4 year deal!!!

Postby pulp22 on Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:35 pm

I think it might work out well. We have other positions to trade from, like d
pulp22
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 431
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:24 pm

Re: Pens sign Staal to a 4 year deal!!!

Postby Eismann on Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:37 pm

KG wrote:Another thought...I'm not sure if I would have locked up Staal yet. He has been average this year. We still don't know what we have with Staal yet. Maybe let the year play out a little more and see how his offensive game comes around?

If his long term role here is top line wing, then I think we should put him there first before we lock him up for 4 years. Because if he can't handle it, then it is overpayment...It's a very tough call. He is not worth $4MM right now, he may be or he may not be...Glad it's not my money...


Well, regardless of RS's true plans for the lad, one plus of this is that it puts the spotlight on Staal. I hope he takes it as a reason to push himself to improve, rather than a crossed-the-finish line-now-can-relax excuse.

Unfortunately, we still can't say his development or lack thereof would be all on him, because of the unknowns with his position and line number/linemates, both of which should have some weight on his future productivity, but here's hoping.
Eismann
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 10,408
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:14 am
Location: Calendar time for Buddy

Re: Pens sign Staal to a 4 year deal!!!

Postby Daniel87 on Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:42 pm

pulp22 wrote:I think it might work out well. We have other positions to trade from, like d


But now there is a 4 mil cap hit on Staal. We can't afford much anyway past this year.
Daniel87
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,077
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:06 am
Location: Pittsburgh

Re: Pens sign Staal to a 4 year deal!!!

Postby pulp22 on Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:45 pm

Daniel87 wrote:
pulp22 wrote:I think it might work out well. We have other positions to trade from, like d


But now there is a 4 mil cap hit on Staal. We can't afford much anyway past this year.


True, but if you dump salary from another area then you could make that up. Whitney makes that much and maybe could bring in the scoring winger we need.
pulp22
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 431
Joined: Fri Feb 17, 2006 12:24 pm

Re: Pens sign Staal to a 4 year deal!!!

Postby Daniel87 on Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:47 pm

One positive thing about this is that it will give Staal much needed confidence. I don't understand it, but when he's confident he plays like an animal. Then he gets in a slump and you don't even notice he's in the lineup. He can and will be a dominant force in this league if he wakes up and plays hard and with confidence each and every night. He was an alternate captain last month, he's 20 years old, and has clearly been shown by management that they have all the faiith in him. I see no reason why he should be invisible out there for long periods of time anymore.
Daniel87
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,077
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:06 am
Location: Pittsburgh

Re: Pens sign Staal to a 4 year deal!!!

Postby marek on Thu Jan 08, 2009 5:57 pm

i have a feeling that you will see the Jordan Staal that scored 29 goals in one season from here on out this year...
funny how a nice paycheck usually gives a player some confidence (well except for talbot)...
marek
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 3,747
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 1:44 am
Location: The Farms, La Jolla California

Re: Pens sign Staal to a 4 year deal!!!

Postby Corvidae on Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:01 pm

wallflower wrote:This thread has disintegrated into absolute ridiculousness. How sad.


Sorry I got here late, or else it would have disintegrated at a much earlier and common LGP rate.
Corvidae
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 14,108
Joined: Mon Aug 07, 2006 7:47 am

Re: Pens sign Staal to a 4 year deal!!!

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:02 pm

wallflower wrote:This thread = absolute ridiculousness. How sad.


agreed
Idoit40fans
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 51,710
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 2:42 pm
Location: No Reading, No Research, Just Strong Opinions

Re: Pens sign Staal to a 4 year deal!!!

Postby Daniel87 on Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:06 pm

Where's kovyman1127? I'm sure he loves the Staal signing.
Daniel87
AHL All-Star
AHL All-Star
 
Posts: 5,077
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 1:06 am
Location: Pittsburgh

Re: Pens sign Staal to a 4 year deal!!!

Postby NeddieVedder on Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:09 pm

Looooooooooooul.

poisonfan2003 wrote:Shero has shown he can collect talent, he has not proven he can build a team.


That sounds deep but is actually just silly. I guess the to-die-for balance of the Cup Finals team (two great scoring lines, two great checking lines) just came together accidentally. The teams he put together in '06 and '07 magically featured the Penguins' first legitimate checking lines (instead of failed Euro prospects playing less ice time) since the Cup years. Roberts to instill in them what it's all about to raise your intensity in the playoffs, Laraque as "The Enforcer To Protect Our Stars so no one would ever hit them again" (previously the most whined for acquisition before the mythic Winger To Play With Sid), Gill as the last piece of the puzzle that gave us such a stellar playoff PK were all some real pure talent grabs too.
NeddieVedder
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 416
Joined: Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:35 am

Re: Pens sign Staal to a 4 year deal!!!

Postby 71 on Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:19 pm

Defence21 wrote:PLAYER A
Season 1, age 18: 82 GP, 13 G, 15 A, 28 Pts, -19
Season 2, age 19: 80 GP, 25 G, 42 A, 67 Pts, -25
Season 3, age 20: 68 GP, 23 G, 28 A, 51 Pts, -26
First 29-goal season: year 5, age 22

PLAYER B
Season 1, age 18: 55 GP, 3 G, 4 A, 7 Pts, -6
Season 2, age 19: 81 GP, 16 G, 25 A, 41 Pts, +3
Season 3, age 20: 81 GP, 23 G, 37 A, 60 Pts, -5
First 29-goal season: year 4, age 21

STAAL
Season 1, age 18: 81 GP, 29 G, 13 A, 42 Pts, +16
Season 2, age 19: 82 GP, 12 G, 16 A, 28 Pts, -5
Season 3, age 20: 41 GP, 11 G, 10 A, 21 Pts, -5

Player A is Vinny Lecavalier. Player B is Joe Thornton. Is Staal really that far off?

It's kind of ridiculous when people look at a 20-year-old and act as if he is a finished product. 95% of players his age are, at the very best, in their first year of professional hockey. Many others are still in college or juniors. Staal already has a 29-goal season under his belt. And, before anyone discounts it -- IT HAPPENED. It proves he can...he just needs to develop into that type of player consistently.

EDIT:

To do some math:

Lecavalier had 146 points and was -70 in his first three seasons

Thornton had 108 points and was -8 in his first three seasons.

So far, Staal has amassed 91 points and is +6 in his first 2 1/2 seasons, with 41 more games to go.


The problem with this line of thinking is Thornton was a 60 PT producer by his 3rd season and Lecavalier was a 67 PT player in his second. Also, and IMO more importantly, they showed the ability to dominate inferior talent in juniors and displayed the hockey skills needed to be a force at the next level. Very rarely do guys become a dominant player at NHL level when they weren't one in juniors or the minor leagues.

Junior Stats at age 16 and 17
Vinny Lecavalier- (QMJHL) GP-122 G-86 A-132 PTS-218
Joe Thornton- (OHL) GP-125 G-71 A-127 PTS-198
Jordan Staal- (OHL) GP-134 G-37 A-59 PTS-98

How is this even comparable? In more games played Jordan had less than half as many points as both of these guys. Lecavalier and Thornton have vision and a remarkable ability to make a pass where one doesn't appear to be and Staal doesn't.

The major issue I have with Staal's new contract is RS is overestimating what Staal's ceiling is, more based on Staal's size and name then on projectable NHL ability, and thus gave this kid no chance to match the expectations that come with such a contract. This coupled with Staal's fluky rookie year where he scored on 22.1% of his shots, not sustainable by anyone let alone someone with an average shot at best by NHL standards, left most people to have ridiculous expectations for a kid who scored only 37 goals over 2 years playing in the OHL. Certain hockey skills are ingrained and are not really able to be taught. Vision of the ice, a quick release on your shot, creativity with the puck, and being able to anticipate how a play will develop are just some of these characteristics and Staal doesn't have them.

I know he isn't a finished product and I hope I'm wrong, but I can't see Staal living up to this contract. He has potential but not as much as some people think, the last time he had seventy points in a season he was 15, and I think RS reached on this one.
71
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 896
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2006 12:18 pm
Location: Delaware

Re: Pens sign Staal to a 4 year deal!!!

Postby brwi on Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:23 pm

I think this was a very difficult decision for RS to make and that's one of the tough calls a GM has to answer in the salary cap era and where a 1st and 3rd isn't beyond the realm of several GMs giving up to sign Staal in the off-season. Regardless of pro or anti-Staal sentiments, this has the makings of a high-risk/reward signing, sort of the same risk as drafting him ahead of better developed players in the first place.

This move could pay some serious dividends or people will be calling for RS' head. It's a real gamble on:
a) how much better will Staal get? When?
b) Is he going to move to wing at least semi-permanently and have success?

I don't care how many minutes Staal gets as a 3rd line center when it's how much dollars he gets that dictates what kind of wingers the Pens can obtain. Anyone thinking that the Pens have good top-6 wingers in the system ready to step up next year is deluded. Staal either becomes that top-6 winger or the Pens have 2 great centers AND Staal as 3rd center and something thrown together on the wings.

The safe route was to offer 3.5 a year for a few years and accept the 1st and 3rd draft choices if some other GM outbid the Pens. Pens' farm club needs restocking anyway and this is a deep draft of talent coming up. The route RS has taken may payoff bigger in the long-run. WHo knows? Glad it wasn't me making the decision because I don't think it's abundantly clear like the hardcore pro/anti factions see it.

Brad
brwi
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 11,129
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 1:36 am

Re: Pens sign Staal to a 4 year deal!!!

Postby Pens4Life on Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:32 pm

too much money for Staal,he just didnt deserved yet that kind of contract,no matter what.. I hope he proves me wrong as Sid's winger now.
Pens4Life
AHL'er
AHL'er
 
Posts: 3,479
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 1:02 pm
Location: Slovenia

Re: Pens sign Staal to a 4 year deal!!!

Postby columbia on Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:37 pm

Dr. J wrote:This is a good move. Right now, Staal is the third best forward on the team. And he is only 20. 20!!! I cant believe how many people on this board want to trade him! He is going to be a great power forward; he will add more mass to his frame and get quicker on his feet. He already possesses great stick-handling skills and knows precisely where to be on the back check. Just everyone please have some patience!


I really want to see kovyman respond to this part.
columbia
NHL Third Liner
NHL Third Liner
 
Posts: 45,852
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:13 am

Re: Pens sign Staal to a 4 year deal!!!

Postby Stevo on Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:52 pm

Didn't read all the posts in this thread but i bet ya stall is going to be forced into being a winger.
Stevo
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 369
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2008 4:32 pm

Re: Pens sign Staal to a 4 year deal!!!

Postby Cosmo_kramer on Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:54 pm

Unlike an apparently 'mob'-majority on here, I'm glad they got him signed. :D

As (I think it was) pcm said, it's a good contract for a 20-year old, 2nd overall draft pick, who has Stanley Cup experience, has shown offensive potential, and is arguably the best young forward in his own end (and gets top ice time).

Some of you don't seem to realize that in order to get him locked up for four years, Shero had to give a bigger price. This deal is the best contract for both sides. Let's say, for example, that Shero was only going to give him 2 million. Staal would never have signed for 4 years, because there's the potential that next year he would've been a 30 goal scorer, and that contract would've been under-priced for him (and we would've had to pay him 5 million or more or more probable, we would've lost him). In order to get the long term deal and ensure his place on this team, Shero had to pay more; simple negotiation.

Furthermore, to put this into perspective for the Staal-haters out there. This deal makes him more attractive. If Shero wants to deal him at the deadline, we'll get a lot more for a 20-year-old center signed for 4 years at a reasonable price, than say a 20-year-old RFA at the end of the year.

Let's talk realistically here... Staal would be a top line center on the majority of other teams in this league, so stop using 3rd line center as evidence of him being a bust.
Cosmo_kramer
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,373
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:13 pm

Re: Pens sign Staal to a 4 year deal!!!

Postby Pens15 on Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:55 pm

71 wrote:
The problem with this line of thinking is Thornton was a 60 PT producer by his 3rd season and Lecavalier was a 67 PT player in his second. Also, and IMO more importantly, they showed the ability to dominate inferior talent in juniors and displayed the hockey skills needed to be a force at the next level. Very rarely do guys become a dominant player at NHL level when they weren't one in juniors or the minor leagues.

Junior Stats at age 16 and 17
Vinny Lecavalier- (QMJHL) GP-122 G-86 A-132 PTS-218
Joe Thornton- (OHL) GP-125 G-71 A-127 PTS-198
Jordan Staal- (OHL) GP-134 G-37 A-59 PTS-98

How is this even comparable? In more games played Jordan had less than half as many points as both of these guys. Lecavalier and Thornton have vision and a remarkable ability to make a pass where one doesn't appear to be and Staal doesn't.

The major issue I have with Staal's new contract is RS is overestimating what Staal's ceiling is, more based on Staal's size and name then on projectable NHL ability, and thus gave this kid no chance to match the expectations that come with such a contract. This coupled with Staal's fluky rookie year where he scored on 22.1% of his shots, not sustainable by anyone let alone someone with an average shot at best by NHL standards, left most people to have ridiculous expectations for a kid who scored only 37 goals over 2 years playing in the OHL. Certain hockey skills are ingrained and are not really able to be taught. Vision of the ice, a quick release on your shot, creativity with the puck, and being able to anticipate how a play will develop are just some of these characteristics and Staal doesn't have them.

I know he isn't a finished product and I hope I'm wrong, but I can't see Staal living up to this contract. He has potential but not as much as some people think, the last time he had seventy points in a season he was 15, and I think RS reached on this one.


You make some great points. I basically agree, Staal really does not have that much offensive talent, at least not enough to justify being the second overall pick. And the comparisons to Big Joe and Vinny are flawed, as you demonstrate.

I only pause because Staal does show flashes of elite caliber talent, albeit rarely. He can undress defenders with stick-handling, remember that goal against Philly his rookie year?. Remember that pass he made to Dupuis in the Islander blow-out game this year for a goal? It was so beautiful that I still think it must have been an accident.

95% of the time he plods along though.
Pens15
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 2,103
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:49 pm

Re: Pens sign Staal to a 4 year deal!!!

Postby Eismann on Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:56 pm

Cosmo_kramer wrote:Let's talk realistically here... Staal would be a top line center on the majority of other teams in this league...


:pop:
Eismann
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 10,408
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:14 am
Location: Calendar time for Buddy

Re: Pens sign Staal to a 4 year deal!!!

Postby 2headedmonster8771 on Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:58 pm

Ok Staal would be a top line center on the majority of OTHER teams...
So what does that do for us??? Is that supposed to make me feel any better about the signing??? Because it doesnt.
The only thing I see is we now have about 23 million invested in centers--and hardly anything on legit wingers. Its going to come back and kill us.
2headedmonster8771
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 803
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:11 pm

Re: Pens sign Staal to a 4 year deal!!!

Postby heshootsandscores on Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:59 pm

Pens15 wrote:
71 wrote:
The problem with this line of thinking is Thornton was a 60 PT producer by his 3rd season and Lecavalier was a 67 PT player in his second. Also, and IMO more importantly, they showed the ability to dominate inferior talent in juniors and displayed the hockey skills needed to be a force at the next level. Very rarely do guys become a dominant player at NHL level when they weren't one in juniors or the minor leagues.

Junior Stats at age 16 and 17
Vinny Lecavalier- (QMJHL) GP-122 G-86 A-132 PTS-218
Joe Thornton- (OHL) GP-125 G-71 A-127 PTS-198
Jordan Staal- (OHL) GP-134 G-37 A-59 PTS-98

How is this even comparable? In more games played Jordan had less than half as many points as both of these guys. Lecavalier and Thornton have vision and a remarkable ability to make a pass where one doesn't appear to be and Staal doesn't.

The major issue I have with Staal's new contract is RS is overestimating what Staal's ceiling is, more based on Staal's size and name then on projectable NHL ability, and thus gave this kid no chance to match the expectations that come with such a contract. This coupled with Staal's fluky rookie year where he scored on 22.1% of his shots, not sustainable by anyone let alone someone with an average shot at best by NHL standards, left most people to have ridiculous expectations for a kid who scored only 37 goals over 2 years playing in the OHL. Certain hockey skills are ingrained and are not really able to be taught. Vision of the ice, a quick release on your shot, creativity with the puck, and being able to anticipate how a play will develop are just some of these characteristics and Staal doesn't have them.

I know he isn't a finished product and I hope I'm wrong, but I can't see Staal living up to this contract. He has potential but not as much as some people think, the last time he had seventy points in a season he was 15, and I think RS reached on this one.


You make some great points. I basically agree, Staal really does not have that much offensive talent, at least not enough to justify being the second overall pick. And the comparisons to Big Joe and Vinny are flawed, as you demonstrate.

I only pause because Staal does show flashes of elite caliber talent, albeit rarely. He can undress defenders with stick-handling, remember that goal against Philly his rookie year?. Remember that pass he made to Dupuis in the Islander blow-out game this year for a goal? It was so beautiful that I still think it must have been an accident.

95% of the time he plods along though.


Yeah, but he has the long pickle-stabber!
heshootsandscores
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,281
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 8:25 pm
Location: Johnstown, PA

Re: Pens sign Staal to a 4 year deal!!!

Postby Cosmo_kramer on Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:03 pm

Yea, Eismenn, that's ironically not realistic. :shock: Sorry. :lol: I was more trying to make a point.

2headedmonster8771 wrote:Ok Staal would be a top line center on the majority of OTHER teams...
So what does that do for us??? Is that supposed to make me feel any better about the signing??? Because it doesnt.
The only thing I see is we now have about 23 million invested in centers--and hardly anything on legit wingers. Its going to come back and kill us.


You do realize we have two of the top centers in the league, yes? I'm not saying you can't use Staal as trade-bait (I'm for it if the right deal comes), and this contract makes him more interesting to teams, but you can't use him being a third-line center on a team with 'two of the top centers in the league' as an excuse to argue he's a bust. He could be a 35 goal-scorer and he'd still be the third best center on the team. That was my argument.. Bust related, not trade related.
Cosmo_kramer
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,373
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:13 pm

Re: Pens sign Staal to a 4 year deal!!!

Postby skullman80 on Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:09 pm

Staal would not be a top line center on most other teams in the league. I'm sorry but he wouldn't. He's not anywhere near there yet. He's not good enough to carry his own line in a top 6 role.

To be a top line center you have to be able to score, which he can't hit the broadside of a barn most nights, and be able to set up others, and Staal lacks big time in that area as well.

I want the kid to succeed, and I really hope he does because this team is going to need him to turn into a top 6 winger, and not be a 3rd line center if they are going to pay him this kind of money over the long haul.

I hope this deal works out, I really do, but I have my doubts... just have to wait and see though.
skullman80
NHL Fourth Liner
NHL Fourth Liner
 
Posts: 18,812
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:55 pm
Location: New Kensington, PA

Re: Pens sign Staal to a 4 year deal!!!

Postby Dave's_a_Killer on Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:16 pm

The U wrote:Anyone in favor of this extension better never show their faces in the ACQUIRE A WINGER!!! threads. If you're paying 4 million to a 3rd liner, you can't afford to bring in line 1 wingers. Real line 1 wingers...not Satan-clones. I like Staal but not at 4 mil. I can think of about 15 other 3rd line centers we could sign for about 1 million-2 million who would bring the same stuff as Staal would to the team.

I don't think Staal's speed, hitting, mean streak, play-making, or goal scoring will improve. He's a defensive center right now and I don't see that changing. Those types of guys can be grabbed each and every offseason for a fraction of the cost.


If this turns out to be a good deal, I better not see any of you belly achers in the Jordan Staal is awesome thread.
Dave's_a_Killer
Junior 'A'
Junior 'A'
 
Posts: 407
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:52 pm
Location: Charlestown

Re: Pens sign Staal to a 4 year deal!!!

Postby Cosmo_kramer on Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:17 pm

skullman80 wrote:Staal would not be a top line center on most other teams in the league. I'm sorry but he wouldn't. He's not anywhere near there yet. He's not good enough to carry his own line in a top 6 role.

To be a top line center you have to be able to score, which he can't hit the broadside of a barn most nights, and be able to set up others, and Staal lacks big time in that area as well.

I want the kid to succeed, and I really hope he does because this team is going to need him to turn into a top 6 winger, and not be a 3rd line center if they are going to pay him this kind of money over the long haul.

I hope this deal works out, I really do, but I have my doubts... just have to wait and see though.


Oh I agree. I'm already walking back from that extreme statement like any good politician would do. :wink:

I'm sure Staal is just as much frustrated with his offensive game as everybody else. You have to be impressed, however, that he continues to be impressive in his own end. Whereas, with other players like Satan, when his offensive game trails off, he has nothing else to bring to the team, Staal is still valuable. I think that (and the fact that he is so young) helps to excuse his performance. (Or I'm just an unabashed Staal apologist)

I would like to see his physical game develop.
Cosmo_kramer
ECHL'er
ECHL'er
 
Posts: 1,373
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2006 10:13 pm

Re: Pens sign Staal to a 4 year deal!!!

Postby Eismann on Thu Jan 08, 2009 7:27 pm

Cosmo_kramer wrote:Yea, Eismenn, that's ironically not realistic. :shock: Sorry. :lol: I was more trying to make a point.

2headedmonster8771 wrote:Ok Staal would be a top line center on the majority of OTHER teams...
So what does that do for us??? Is that supposed to make me feel any better about the signing??? Because it doesnt.
The only thing I see is we now have about 23 million invested in centers--and hardly anything on legit wingers. Its going to come back and kill us.


You do realize we have two of the top centers in the league, yes? I'm not saying you can't use Staal as trade-bait (I'm for it if the right deal comes), and this contract makes him more interesting to teams, but you can't use him being a third-line center on a team with 'two of the top centers in the league' as an excuse to argue he's a bust. He could be a 35 goal-scorer and he'd still be the third best center on the team. That was my argument.. Bust related, not trade related.


S'ok; you're still the ***-Man :P

I'd agree with you when the Jordan Staal On-Switch is flipped to "ON"; disagree viscerally when it's flipped to "OFF."
Eismann
NHL Healthy Scratch
NHL Healthy Scratch
 
Posts: 10,408
Joined: Sun Aug 13, 2006 8:14 am
Location: Calendar time for Buddy

PreviousNext

Return to Pittsburgh Penguins

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

e-mail