Would sending Goligoski down...

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Re: Would sending Goligoski down...

Postby Daniel on Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:52 pm

Mongoose87 wrote:Gogo has been pretty solid this year, I don't understand why he doesn't play over Boucher. But, if he isn't going to, I'd rather see him get top-pairing minutes in the AHL than sit in the box up here.


Maybe they are showcasing Boucher for anything. If that is the case, Gogo sitting in the press box for a few games isn't a big deal, as he would play when Boucher goes.
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Re: Would sending Goligoski down...

Postby HomerPenguin on Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:15 pm

Mad City Mike wrote:
Draftnik wrote:The empty net goals for and against need to be stripped out to provide meaningful context. Typically Crosby, Malkin, and somebody else (1, 2, or 3) are out when the Pens are playing against or with an empty net so it kind of evens out for the Forwards. On D though it is usually Whitney as the only Dman with the Pens empty net during the big losing patch. When the Pens are playing against the empty net Scuds probably picked up a few +/- since MT has defensive Dmen out to protect the 1 or 2 goal lead. Gogo probably lost a couple of +/- because he probably was the lone Dman in Whitney's role when the Pens played with an open net during Whitney's absence.


Good point Drafty. here are the adjusted numbers:

Player +/-
1 Alex Goligoski 10
2 Rob Scuderi 4
3 Mark Eaton 3
4 Philippe Boucher 2
4 Kristopher Letang 2
6 Ben Lovejoy 0
7 Hal Gill -1
8 Ryan Whitney -5
9 Brooks Orpik -7


Good grief, Whitney is an adjusted -5 with all the time he's missed? Maybe he's the one who should be playing in WBS.
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Re: Would sending Goligoski down...

Postby HomerPenguin on Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:18 pm

Angle wrote:Whitney is a big guy and, if he can continue developing to the point that he can take over for Gonchar if and when he leaves, will be a very economical solution (I think he'll be making $4 million, where other top defenders make at least $5?)


Continue developing? He's been regressing for two years. Since he came back from injury and they've tried to plug him in to Gonchar's role as the PP quarterback, he's been so bad in that role that he should qualify for federal bailout money. And while I'm not one of those who criticizes Whitney for being big but not hitting, I'm also not going to say that a guy who plays as small as he does should be valued for being physically bigger than somebody else.
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Re: Would sending Goligoski down...

Postby Idoit40fans on Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:18 pm

HomerPenguin wrote:
Mad City Mike wrote:
Draftnik wrote:The empty net goals for and against need to be stripped out to provide meaningful context. Typically Crosby, Malkin, and somebody else (1, 2, or 3) are out when the Pens are playing against or with an empty net so it kind of evens out for the Forwards. On D though it is usually Whitney as the only Dman with the Pens empty net during the big losing patch. When the Pens are playing against the empty net Scuds probably picked up a few +/- since MT has defensive Dmen out to protect the 1 or 2 goal lead. Gogo probably lost a couple of +/- because he probably was the lone Dman in Whitney's role when the Pens played with an open net during Whitney's absence.


Good point Drafty. here are the adjusted numbers:

Player +/-
1 Alex Goligoski 10
2 Rob Scuderi 4
3 Mark Eaton 3
4 Philippe Boucher 2
4 Kristopher Letang 2
6 Ben Lovejoy 0
7 Hal Gill -1
8 Ryan Whitney -5
9 Brooks Orpik -7


Good grief, Whitney is an adjusted -5 with all the time he's missed? Maybe he's the one who should be playing in WBS.


??? Orpik's is worse.
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Re: Would sending Goligoski down...

Postby Henry Hank on Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:19 pm

Good grief, Whitney is an adjusted -5 with all the time he's missed? Maybe he's the one who should be playing in WBS.


Well, he returned right as the team was sinking, so he never had the benefit of playing with them while they were winning. Goligoski was getting scratched more frequently during the losing period and not during the winning months. By that logic, Orpik should be going down right with him.

+/- is meaningless without context. Whitney plays huge minutes. He plays against the top players of other teams. So does Orpik. Goligoski has been relatively guarded. So has Eaton. +/- isn't a good stat even if you're just looking within one team.
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Re: Would sending Goligoski down...

Postby Henry Hank on Thu Jan 29, 2009 11:25 pm

HomerPenguin wrote:
Angle wrote:Whitney is a big guy and, if he can continue developing to the point that he can take over for Gonchar if and when he leaves, will be a very economical solution (I think he'll be making $4 million, where other top defenders make at least $5?)


Continue developing? He's been regressing for two years. Since he came back from injury and they've tried to plug him in to Gonchar's role as the PP quarterback, he's been so bad in that role that he should qualify for federal bailout money. And while I'm not one of those who criticizes Whitney for being big but not hitting, I'm also not going to say that a guy who plays as small as he does should be valued for being physically bigger than somebody else.


Player development isn't always a straight, linear path forward. Players often take steps back before they put it together as they progress as players. It doesn't help Whitney's case that he played last year with a deformed foot and is now playing with a reconstructed foot that needs time to be strengthened. Pens fans should know plenty about the development process for the typical NHL player, although they always seem to forget it. Pretty much everyone was ready to give up on Malone and Orpik before last season, yet they finally put things together. Now you have the same things going on with Whitney and Staal and to a lesser extent, Fleury.

Whitney's size is relevant whether or not he's a big hitter. Having that size allows him to take more punishment and prevents him from being overpowered by guys that are smaller than him but bigger than a guy like Goligoski or Letang. Contrary to some people's belief, Whitney does take hits to make plays. Size allows him to win physical battles. He still has work to do in that area, but again, he is still developing, he's not a finished product. Regardless of his cap hit, his actual salaries started modest and escalate by year with that expectation in mind.

If a year from now, Whitney still hasn't made positive strides, that'll be one thing. Based on his health status and the development curves for his peers, it shouldn't be the expectation that he'd have it all together at this point.
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Re: Would sending Goligoski down...

Postby HomerPenguin on Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:05 am

Idoit40fans wrote:
HomerPenguin wrote:Good grief, Whitney is an adjusted -5 with all the time he's missed? Maybe he's the one who should be playing in WBS.


??? Orpik's is worse.


Yes. It only took Orpik an extra 30 games to rack up the additional 2 net goals against. Let's see where Whitney is at when he hits 46 GP.
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Re: Would sending Goligoski down...

Postby HomerPenguin on Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:11 am

Henry Hank wrote:Player development isn't always a straight, linear path forward. Players often take steps back before they put it together as they progress as players.


And sometimes they just keep taking steps back.

It doesn't help Whitney's case that he played last year with a deformed foot and is now playing with a reconstructed foot that needs time to be strengthened.


Unless his brain is in that foot, I'm not sure how you excuse poor decision-making at the point on the PP by bringing up his foot injury.

If a year from now, Whitney still hasn't made positive strides, that'll be one thing. Based on his health status and the development curves for his peers, it shouldn't be the expectation that he'd have it all together at this point.


It's not the expectation that he'd have it all together at this point. Some sign that things are progressing in that direction would be nice, though.
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Re: Would sending Goligoski down...

Postby Draftnik on Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:30 am

I've been following Gogo since he was at U Minn and actually watched him play quite a bit during the lockout season (04/05) and then the 05/06 season because I wanted to watch Kessel. I've always thought he would be a good NHL puck moving Dman so I have no reason to bash the guy, but he looks over matched physically in the Pens zone below the hash marks, especially around the Pens net. He is easily knocked off the puck when he is pressured. I think he needs to get stronger before the Pens trust him to take a regular shift when most of the Dmen are healthy. He certainly has a knack for timing when to jump up on the play and good sense to find open holes and create good angles to receive passes, but the Pens are in still trying to break out of their losing rut right now so I suspect MT and the coaches are trying to emphasize positional integrity, playing the system conservatively, less risk taking, etc to help get things back on track. If the Pens were comfortably leading the division MT would probably be more open to playing Gogo but right now the Pens need to focus on keeping things simple so I doubt MT sees Gogo fitting into that philosophy relative to the other healthy Dmen.

Any way you slice it Gogo has done well +/-. As HH said, MT has spotted Gogo against inferior competition. Here is a site that does an adjusted 5-on-5 +/- that accounts for quality of teammates and competition (does not remove ENGs for/against or count 4-on-4 goals):

http://www.behindthenet.ca/2008/basic_5_on_5.php?sort=6&mingp=&mintoi=&team=PIT&pos=D

MT & the staff obviously analyze game film so they probably factor in their view of players contribution to goals for/against, scoring chances for/against, etc and based on that they must have come to the conclusion that Gogo isn't providing the Pens with overwhelmingly better play than the other Dmen despite the +/- ratings.
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Re: Would sending Goligoski down...

Postby Mongoose87 on Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:44 am

HomerPenguin wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
HomerPenguin wrote:Good grief, Whitney is an adjusted -5 with all the time he's missed? Maybe he's the one who should be playing in WBS.


??? Orpik's is worse.


Yes. It only took Orpik an extra 30 games to rack up the additional 2 net goals against. Let's see where Whitney is at when he hits 46 GP.

You're missing the point. Orpik played in games where we were winning, whereas Whitney has only played in the cold streak.
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Re: Would sending Goligoski down...

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:59 am

HomerPenguin wrote:
Idoit40fans wrote:
HomerPenguin wrote:Good grief, Whitney is an adjusted -5 with all the time he's missed? Maybe he's the one who should be playing in WBS.


??? Orpik's is worse.


Yes. It only took Orpik an extra 30 games to rack up the additional 2 net goals against. Let's see where Whitney is at when he hits 46 GP.


Whitney played through the worst stretch of the season. Orpik got to play through the best stretch.
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Re: Would sending Goligoski down...

Postby HomerPenguin on Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:03 am

Mongoose87 wrote:
HomerPenguin wrote:Yes. It only took Orpik an extra 30 games to rack up the additional 2 net goals against. Let's see where Whitney is at when he hits 46 GP.

You're missing the point. Orpik played in games where we were winning, whereas Whitney has only played in the cold streak.


Well shucks, if we're not going to count how the players perform when the team as a whole struggles, then why are we talking about moving anybody? This is the greatest team in hockey!
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Re: Would sending Goligoski down...

Postby Idoit40fans on Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:14 am

HomerPenguin wrote:
Mongoose87 wrote:
HomerPenguin wrote:Yes. It only took Orpik an extra 30 games to rack up the additional 2 net goals against. Let's see where Whitney is at when he hits 46 GP.

You're missing the point. Orpik played in games where we were winning, whereas Whitney has only played in the cold streak.


Well shucks, if we're not going to count how the players perform when the team as a whole struggles, then why are we talking about moving anybody? This is the greatest team in hockey!


What?

Have you suffered a head trauma in the past couple of months?
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Re: Would sending Goligoski down...

Postby Mongoose87 on Fri Jan 30, 2009 3:16 am

HomerPenguin wrote:
Mongoose87 wrote:
HomerPenguin wrote:Yes. It only took Orpik an extra 30 games to rack up the additional 2 net goals against. Let's see where Whitney is at when he hits 46 GP.

You're missing the point. Orpik played in games where we were winning, whereas Whitney has only played in the cold streak.


Well shucks, if we're not going to count how the players perform when the team as a whole struggles, then why are we talking about moving anybody? This is the greatest team in hockey!

Haha, funny.
We're discussing Whitney's plus/minus. The point, which you're so deliberately eluding, is that Whitney has not had the benefit of playing with the team when they were playing well, which skews his plus/minus toward the negatives. You would find that the other players, with the possible exception of Scuderi, would be significantly worse if they had only played during this period. That is why you cannot use the plus/minus to measure Whitney's performance when compared to his teammates. The stats don't tell the whole story. They don't even really tell the story. Fleury and Sabourin were also cold during this period. Everything is stacked to make Whitney's plus/minus lower, deserved or not.
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Re: Would sending Goligoski down...

Postby darkstar57 on Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:29 am

Angle wrote:
lifetimefan wrote:He has been a top performer on the PP. He has been relatively solid defensively.


Wow, a top performer on a 19.5% power play is like the smartest kid on the short bus.

Furthermore, the team powerplay scored 4 goals in the last 5 games... Gog was dressed for 2 of these 5 games... one of these games the Pens were shut out on the PP, and the other game, Gogo wasn't even on the ice for the PP goal. I think his point totals (7 powerplay points) are more a function of playing with Crosby and Malkin and getting significant powerplay ice time with the injuries to Gonchar and Whitney, than an indication of skill.



Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner!!!

Look I like Gogo and i think he is going to be a good offensive d-man in the years to come but he is not there yet. I think he would really benefit by going down and working on his defensive game and logging top minutes. When Gonchar comes back Gonchar, Orpick, Whitney, Letang and Scuds are pretty much locks at this point to play and Eaton has really stepped up his game lately. The only reason to keep Gogo up would be for him to watch Gonchar and learn how to QB the PP at the NHL level, but that is the onyl reason. His PP stats are inflated because he plays with Malkin and Crosby, ****, put me on the Point of a powerplay with them and i bet i have at least 2 assist just from passing them the puck
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Re: Would sending Goligoski down...

Postby burghsportsguys on Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:49 am

Angle wrote:I tend to think that Whitney and Letang are more the future of this team's puck-moving defensemen than Gogo.... Gogo is small... he'd even make a small forward, which may limit his upside. Letang is also small, but he has a few pounds and maybe an inch or two on Gogo, not to mention he's shown a willingness to make a hit now and again. Whitney is a big guy and, if he can continue developing to the point that he can take over for Gonchar if and when he leaves, will be a very economical solution (I think he'll be making $4 million, where other top defenders make at least $5?)

I'd be an advocate of dangling Goligoski as trade bait. I'm not sure what he would bring in, but if he could bring in a long-term solution top-two line wing (especially he he's signed to a long term cheap deal), I say go for it.

Just so I'm clear, you think Whitney is an economical solution IF he can continue developing (which is certainly arguable one way or another). Gogo, who is younger, cheaper, and has as much upside as Whitney, maybe even further along at this point of his career, and already better on the PP is a guy that you'd advocate trading.

There's a major disconnect there. Gogo is younger, cheaper, and arguably on a path that will exceed Whitney (you've already stated yourself that Whitney must continue to develop - note that he's in his second year making $4MM already).

From the Pens perspective, it's an absolute no-brainer which player is better for them to deal.... it's Whitney. I can't see the logic that would say it's better to deal Gogo, when both players are still valued largely on potential and one is already making top-end money.
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Re: Would sending Goligoski down...

Postby wallflower on Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:54 am

I can't believe people are arguing about players' +/-. I mean, seriously. Why don't we debate how each player tapes their stick & how that affects their play next? That might be almost as useful of a stat.
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Re: Would sending Goligoski down...

Postby columbia on Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:08 pm

wallflower wrote:I can't believe people are arguing about players' +/-. I mean, seriously. Why don't we debate how each player tapes their stick & how that affects their play next? That might be almost as useful of a stat.


+/-
1 Dennis Wideman, BOS 28
2 Blake Wheeler, BOS 27
3 Marc Savard, BOS 26
4 David Krejci, BOS 25
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Re: Would sending Goligoski down...

Postby wallflower on Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:19 pm

columbia wrote:
wallflower wrote:I can't believe people are arguing about players' +/-. I mean, seriously. Why don't we debate how each player tapes their stick & how that affects their play next? That might be almost as useful of a stat.


+/-
1 Dennis Wideman, BOS 28
2 Blake Wheeler, BOS 27
3 Marc Savard, BOS 26
4 David Krejci, BOS 25

It can be a worthwhile stat, if you look more deeply than just what the number is. Most people don't, that's my issue.
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Re: Would sending Goligoski down...

Postby Angle on Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:24 pm

HomerPenguin wrote:
Henry Hank wrote:Player development isn't always a straight, linear path forward. Players often take steps back before they put it together as they progress as players.


And sometimes they just keep taking steps back.

It doesn't help Whitney's case that he played last year with a deformed foot and is now playing with a reconstructed foot that needs time to be strengthened.


Unless his brain is in that foot, I'm not sure how you excuse poor decision-making at the point on the PP by bringing up his foot injury.

If a year from now, Whitney still hasn't made positive strides, that'll be one thing. Based on his health status and the development curves for his peers, it shouldn't be the expectation that he'd have it all together at this point.


It's not the expectation that he'd have it all together at this point. Some sign that things are progressing in that direction would be nice, though.


Leave it to Henry Hank to eloquently say what I was struggling to.

And HomerPenguin - Look at the Pens PP over the last 5 games. They scored powerplay goals against the best Penalty Killing team in the leauge (Rangers) in two separate games for a % of 22%. Whitney had two assists. Not to mention Whitney has logged 25-30 minutes in each of the five games... Since Dec 22, Gogo has played 11 games and hasn't even been on the ice for a power play goal.

I'm not saying Gogo is crap. He's good. But I think he's a one-trick pony that has a ways to go. I think Whitney, although not at his potential yet (because of injury and he's ONLY 25!), is playing well above the level of Gogo and should continue to be a cornerstone of this defense along with Orpik and Gonch when he returns.
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Re: Would sending Goligoski down...

Postby Angle on Fri Jan 30, 2009 12:39 pm

burghsportsguys wrote:
Angle wrote:I tend to think that Whitney and Letang are more the future of this team's puck-moving defensemen than Gogo.... Gogo is small... he'd even make a small forward, which may limit his upside. Letang is also small, but he has a few pounds and maybe an inch or two on Gogo, not to mention he's shown a willingness to make a hit now and again. Whitney is a big guy and, if he can continue developing to the point that he can take over for Gonchar if and when he leaves, will be a very economical solution (I think he'll be making $4 million, where other top defenders make at least $5?)

I'd be an advocate of dangling Goligoski as trade bait. I'm not sure what he would bring in, but if he could bring in a long-term solution top-two line wing (especially he he's signed to a long term cheap deal), I say go for it.

Just so I'm clear, you think Whitney is an economical solution IF he can continue developing (which is certainly arguable one way or another). Gogo, who is younger, cheaper, and has as much upside as Whitney, maybe even further along at this point of his career, and already better on the PP is a guy that you'd advocate trading.

There's a major disconnect there. Gogo is younger, cheaper, and arguably on a path that will exceed Whitney (you've already stated yourself that Whitney must continue to develop - note that he's in his second year making $4MM already).

From the Pens perspective, it's an absolute no-brainer which player is better for them to deal.... it's Whitney. I can't see the logic that would say it's better to deal Gogo, when both players are still valued largely on potential and one is already making top-end money.


I think you're comparing apples and oranges here... it's like saying that Mike Zigormantis is a more economical solution than Peter Sykora. One is a penalty killer who runs a 4th line and comes in for key faceoffs; the other is winger that rides one of the top lines and plays on the power play.

Same with Whitney and Gogo. Whitney is a bigger, stronger defensemen capable of playing top-pairing minutes. Since he's come back, he's averaged 25:41, good enough for 9th in the league (ATOI). Yeah, he's been a -8 since he's come back, but he's been nursing an injured foot... his last 5 (against the big guns of the NYR twice and the CAPS), he's been even while putting up a goal and five assists. Something tells me he's turning the corner. It's this kind of performance (and role) that will put him in the same catagory as Zdeno Chara and Scott Neidermeyer.... I'm not saying he's as good as them, but he plays the same role and honestly, I don't think he's nearly as bad at it as this board makes him out to be. $4 million for your workhorse #1 defender is a steal.

Gogo, on the other hand, will be limited by his size. He's listed as 5'11 - 180lb, but I honestly think that's with his skates on. Could you imagine him being paired an Ovechkin or Iginla? He'd get tossed aside like a child's toy. Gogo's career potential is strong as a power play qb, but his overall ice time will be limited because in 5-on-5 capabilities. If you want a pp qb and nothing else, call Dick Tarnstrom.
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Re: Would sending Goligoski down...

Postby Steve on Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:01 pm

wallflower wrote:I can't believe people are arguing about players' +/-. I mean, seriously. Why don't we debate how each player tapes their stick & how that affects their play next? That might be almost as useful of a stat.


The problem with Whitney, is that he tapes his stick from the toe, and works back to the blade. He's got it backwards and opposing players know this and are exploiting it. He used to do it the proper way, and his +/- was stronger, I don't think it's a coincidence...
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Re: Would sending Goligoski down...

Postby Angle on Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:07 pm

Steve wrote:
wallflower wrote:I can't believe people are arguing about players' +/-. I mean, seriously. Why don't we debate how each player tapes their stick & how that affects their play next? That might be almost as useful of a stat.


The problem with Whitney, is that he tapes his stick from the toe, and works back to the blade. He's got it backwards and opposing players know this and are exploiting it. He used to do it the proper way, and his +/- was stronger, I don't think it's a coincidence...


Ryan Whitney goes from toe to blade and plays defense.
Ray Whitney goes from blade to toe and plays wing.

Coincidence?
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Re: Would sending Goligoski down...

Postby Mongoose87 on Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:21 pm

Angle wrote:
Steve wrote:
wallflower wrote:I can't believe people are arguing about players' +/-. I mean, seriously. Why don't we debate how each player tapes their stick & how that affects their play next? That might be almost as useful of a stat.


The problem with Whitney, is that he tapes his stick from the toe, and works back to the blade. He's got it backwards and opposing players know this and are exploiting it. He used to do it the proper way, and his +/- was stronger, I don't think it's a coincidence...


Ryan Whitney goes from toe to blade and plays defense.
Ray Whitney goes from blade to toe and plays wing.

Coincidence?

I'll get the aluminum foil.
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Re: Would sending Goligoski down...

Postby darkstar57 on Fri Jan 30, 2009 1:57 pm

Sorry people but Gogo is not the answer this year or even next year. He needs to learn to play better defensively and he needs to get stronger so that he is not easily pushed around the net. Letang is a small dude but he plays alot bigger then he really is. I was watching him on the PK against the rags and he was punishing which ever Ranger was in front of the net. I never saw gogo punish anyone in front of the net.

As for the whole he is better on the PP then whitney, i am sorry but our PP sucked with Gogo et all. playing the points this year. We actually have turned it around the past 5 games with whitney. i know Yeo switch the point of attack on the PP to have crosby handle the puck more and that is part of the turnaround (plus we have all lefties lets change the point of attack for more one timers, GENIUS!!!), but whitney is more confident back there. Right now we need a guy that has produced in his career at the NHL level on the PP back there, not a guy that has the potential to be a PP QB. Whitney might not be the greatest guy to have back there, but i would rather him back there then anyone else on the team.

Gogo has done a great job and stepping up and filling avoid for us, but his play really has tailed off and its proof that he needs more time to develop.
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