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Postby Zscout on Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:16 am

Crash wrote:
Right, so what's stopping him from making a deal in KC (Which he may already have) and playing one lame duck season in Mellon Arena?


Also cities and investors from Las Vegas, Portland, Seattle, San Francisco, Houston, Cleveland, Winnipeg, Quebec, Halifax, Indianapolis and Baltimore will likely look into the prospect of bringing in a "free agent" NHL franchise. My guess is Las Vegas is the front runner.
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Postby Draftnik on Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:24 am

Zscout wrote:
Crash wrote:
Right, so what's stopping him from making a deal in KC (Which he may already have) and playing one lame duck season in Mellon Arena?


Also cities and investors from Las Vegas, Portland, Seattle, San Francisco, Houston, Cleveland, Winnipeg, Quebec, Halifax, Indianapolis and Baltimore will likely look into the prospect of bringing in a "free agent" NHL franchise. My guess is Las Vegas is the front runner.


You post the most ridiculous nonsense on this board. The mayor of LV said there was nothing in the works to build a new arena in Vegas, much less bring a team there. There was an article in the Houston Chronicle about how the CEOs of the Mirage and other large casinos were adamant that gaming taxes would not be used to finance a new arena. If you were informed before positing your nonsense you would know these facts.

Don't go outside today. It is raining. you might get wet, struck by lightening, hit by a tree or moving car....
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Postby Bowser on Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:32 am

If IOC doesn't win the slots license, new ownership will have Rendell over their laps for a large arse-whipping with the Plan B details. There is absolutely NO WAY the political pigs want blood on their hands with Republicans bungling everything on the Federal level.

Rendell has an opportunity to gain Democrats a great stronghold in Washington DC with Bob Casey defeating Rick Santorum and surely doesn't want anyone voting Slick Rick or Lynn Swann just because of their support for IOC.

Lemieux/Burkle are going to make a ton of money off this sale and though I'm not thrilled with this Fingold character, I trust Bettman does not want a 'small-market' to move on his watch just after the CBA/lockout battle with the NHLPA.

As I said two months ago, Pens are staying thanks to rope tightening on Rendell and Bettman.
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Postby NIN on Sat Jul 22, 2006 11:19 am

I think they will stay - I mean lets hope they stay. It was never at 100% but it's better than 50% that they stay. maybe even 60-40. SO I'll remain optimistic but I can't pretend that this isn't bad news.

Let's just agree for a second that every bidder no matter who they are or what they have said in the past is on board for plan B. That leaves this whole thing in the hands of the democrats (Onorato, Randell, and O' Connor) who above all else want to be re-elected. Plan B would not exist if this were not an election year. It would certainly not exist if IOC never threw their hat in the ring. After the election - whether they remain or get elected out - are we suppose to trust that the millions and millions of dollars promised will still be there? When has a politician EVER kept a campaign promise?

What about Bettman? Can he really stop the owners from moving the team when Plan B is delayed and diminished by our politicians? I don't think so and if the new owner is smart he will have a timeline of stipulations in place and signed before closing.

So I am still concerend and not in the know like I wish I were. Who would;nt want to really know all the details of what we are speculating about? I remain hopeful but I am anxious for some good news.
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Postby Zscout on Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:11 pm

Draftnik wrote:
You post the most ridiculous nonsense on this board. The mayor of LV said there was nothing in the works to build a new arena in Vegas, much less bring a team there. There was an article in the Houston Chronicle about how the CEOs of the Mirage and other large casinos were adamant that gaming taxes would not be used to finance a new arena. If you were informed before positing your nonsense you would know these facts.

Don't go outside today. It is raining. you might get wet, struck by lightening, hit by a tree or moving car....


Again - you never addressed the heart of the situation. You just make your personal attacks, because you do not like what is said.
The only reason the Penguins, a franchise that would only value at 137 million, would sell for over 175 million, is because it will be a *"free agent"* franchise. No matter what you say, several cities will get into the bidding process to move them. The owners will do what is best for their interests, and that has little to do with the city of Pittsburgh.
The city has no rights to the team. The city had several years to work and arena deal with Lemieux, and it failed. That is why Lemieux is selling, and that is why the city will have trouble convincing new owners that they can produce the best option to keep the team here.


Note Forbes valued the St. Louis Blues at 148 million - they sold for 150 million. Forbes valued the Penguins at 137 million - why is someone willing to pay 175 million for a franchise that twice claimed bankruptcy playing in the city of Pittsburgh?
http://espn.go.com/sportsbusiness/s/forbes.html
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Postby Guido on Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:23 pm

pessimistic logic hurts, especially when there is some fact behind it.
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Postby newarenanow on Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:24 pm

I love the sky is falling stuff. Just the other day, everyone was saying the Pens are staying for sure because the NHL blocked the move to Hamilton. THere were still the same four bidders at the time, which included Fingold. Now that FIngold is the leader, all of the news the other day changes?

Yes, there is a possiblity the team moves if he gets them. I'd feel a lot better if Murstein would have gotten them. But Pgh will offer one heck a lease deal and Fingold and everyone else that now has seen the draft copy of the lease have said Pgh is viable.

Also, there is no LOI signed yet. The Lemieux Group may be hoping that FIngold and Larry G bid against each other and bump up the price even more. IF it doesn't go higher, they still may sell to Murstein if his bid is truly only $5M less.

It's just funny watching people say how Plan 'B' was great and saved the Pens just the other day, and all of a sudden today it sucks.

I'm still optimistic the Pens will stay, but we will be sitting on pins and needles longer now if the team is sold to Fingold. I'm sure he'll make a decision by October also whether to sign onto Plan 'B' or not.
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Postby newarenanow on Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:29 pm

Also, I wish people would quit saying, "The Pens will never pay $4M a year when they can play for free in KC". Look at the revenue side also. AEG needs part of the revenue stream in KC to help pay for the cost of the arena, and the city will surely take some too. If the city of Pgh offers a lot more of the revenue to the Pens in Plan'B' and it offsets that $4M and gives them even more, it is a better deal. I'm sure the revenue from Pgh will definitley offset the $4M they are spending.

Also, I believe that Pgh is a better long term solution. KC will only make them money for the short term. Just look at the history of KC sports, the Scouts left after 2 season, the Kings left in the NBA, and the Athletics left in baseball. That is 3 teams that failed in that city.
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Postby tluke53 on Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:29 pm

Zscout wrote:
Draftnik wrote:
You post the most ridiculous nonsense on this board. The mayor of LV said there was nothing in the works to build a new arena in Vegas, much less bring a team there. There was an article in the Houston Chronicle about how the CEOs of the Mirage and other large casinos were adamant that gaming taxes would not be used to finance a new arena. If you were informed before positing your nonsense you would know these facts.

Don't go outside today. It is raining. you might get wet, struck by lightening, hit by a tree or moving car....


Again - you never addressed the heart of the situation. You just make your personal attacks, because you do not like what is said.
The only reason the Penguins, a franchise that would only value at 137 million, would sell for over 175 million, is because it will be a *"free agent"* franchise. No matter what you say, several cities will get into the bidding process to move them. The owners will do what is best for their interests, and that has little to do with the city of Pittsburgh.
The city has no rights to the team. The city had several years to work and arena deal with Lemieux, and it failed. That is why Lemieux is selling, and that is why the city will have trouble convincing new owners that they can produce the best option to keep the team here.


Note Forbes valued the St. Louis Blues at 148 million - they sold for 150 million. Forbes valued the Penguins at 137 million - why is someone willing to pay 175 million for a franchise that twice claimed bankruptcy playing in the city of Pittsburgh?
http://espn.go.com/sportsbusiness/s/forbes.html



Nice post, but I think there is more to it than just being a "free agent Franchise". They are a Free Agent Franchise loaded with young upcoming players in a sport with a new economic system that enables all teams to make money in a good venu. That said, the "Free Agent Franchise" is probably the main reason why they are selling so high.
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Postby cojac on Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:39 pm

If the Pens can control all revenue streams in the new arena, then I'm sure a $2.5 million/year "lease" over 30 years would definitely keep them here.
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Postby NIN on Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:45 pm

tluke53 wrote:
Zscout wrote:
Draftnik wrote:
You post the most ridiculous nonsense on this board. The mayor of LV said there was nothing in the works to build a new arena in Vegas, much less bring a team there. There was an article in the Houston Chronicle about how the CEOs of the Mirage and other large casinos were adamant that gaming taxes would not be used to finance a new arena. If you were informed before positing your nonsense you would know these facts.

Don't go outside today. It is raining. you might get wet, struck by lightening, hit by a tree or moving car....


Again - you never addressed the heart of the situation. You just make your personal attacks, because you do not like what is said.
The only reason the Penguins, a franchise that would only value at 137 million, would sell for over 175 million, is because it will be a *"free agent"* franchise. No matter what you say, several cities will get into the bidding process to move them. The owners will do what is best for their interests, and that has little to do with the city of Pittsburgh.
The city has no rights to the team. The city had several years to work and arena deal with Lemieux, and it failed. That is why Lemieux is selling, and that is why the city will have trouble convincing new owners that they can produce the best option to keep the team here.


Note Forbes valued the St. Louis Blues at 148 million - they sold for 150 million. Forbes valued the Penguins at 137 million - why is someone willing to pay 175 million for a franchise that twice claimed bankruptcy playing in the city of Pittsburgh?
http://espn.go.com/sportsbusiness/s/forbes.html



Nice post, but I think there is more to it than just being a "free agent Franchise". They are a Free Agent Franchise loaded with young upcoming players in a sport with a new economic system that enables all teams to make money in a good venu. That said, the "Free Agent Franchise" is probably the main reason why they are selling so high.


The bottom line is that it comes down to the democrats. If that does'nt worry you than you have'nt paid any attention to the Pittsburgh area hockey or otherwise for the last 7 years.
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Postby Crash on Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:50 pm

newarenanow wrote:I love the sky is falling stuff. Just the other day, everyone was saying the Pens are staying for sure because the NHL blocked the move to Hamilton. THere were still the same four bidders at the time, which included Fingold. Now that FIngold is the leader, all of the news the other day changes?

Yes, there is a possiblity the team moves if he gets them. I'd feel a lot better if Murstein would have gotten them. But Pgh will offer one heck a lease deal and Fingold and everyone else that now has seen the draft copy of the lease have said Pgh is viable.

Also, there is no LOI signed yet. The Lemieux Group may be hoping that FIngold and Larry G bid against each other and bump up the price even more. IF it doesn't go higher, they still may sell to Murstein if his bid is truly only $5M less.

It's just funny watching people say how Plan 'B' was great and saved the Pens just the other day, and all of a sudden today it sucks.

I'm still optimistic the Pens will stay, but we will be sitting on pins and needles longer now if the team is sold to Fingold. I'm sure he'll make a decision by October also whether to sign onto Plan 'B' or not.


What sucks is the lower bidder owners were asked to up the ante and they claim they did, and that still wasn't good enough.

That is where the concern lies.

If Fingold decides in OCTOBER that he's not signing onto Plan B then the politicos would have done NOTHING to improve this situation, which in reality is what they want anyway.

Bettman holds the cards here, no one else.
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Postby NIN on Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:54 pm

Crash wrote:Bettman holds the cards here, no one else.



Actually Plan B is sharing that hand. If it is an ofer that cannot be denied than Bettman cannot allow the team to move even if for some reason he thought it would be better for the league.

It's really very terrifying to think that these stooges (God bless O' Connor's health and family) are all that's left of the team staying here.
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Postby Crash on Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:56 pm

NIN wrote:
Crash wrote:Bettman holds the cards here, no one else.



Actually Plan B is sharing that hand. If it is an ofer that cannot be denied than Bettman cannot allow the team to move even if for some reason he thought it would be better for the league.

It's really very terrifying to think that these stooges (God bless O' Connor's health and family) are all that's left of the team staying here.


The Stooges don't want them here. It has to be Bettman.
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Postby skullman80 on Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:58 pm

Stoosh always gives me some faith when he makes these kinds of posts. It's refreshing.
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Postby NIN on Sat Jul 22, 2006 12:58 pm

Crash wrote:
NIN wrote:
Crash wrote:Bettman holds the cards here, no one else.



Actually Plan B is sharing that hand. If it is an ofer that cannot be denied than Bettman cannot allow the team to move even if for some reason he thought it would be better for the league.

It's really very terrifying to think that these stooges (God bless O' Connor's health and family) are all that's left of the team staying here.


The Stooges don't want them here. It has to be Bettman.


OK but you are aware of the existance of Plan B are you not? That is the anchor that Bettman needs to deny relocation. Who is going to buy a team that loses money every year? It's Capri, B, or out to sea,
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Postby penny lane on Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:08 pm

I'm the first to admit I don't know what is going to happen to the pens so I'll just continue to read here and between the lines of the newspapers. :wink:

I know for sure if Harrahs gets the slots, property tax relief ; another
fairy tale.

Tom Ridge could have possibly made the route to the pens bldg easier
but September 11, 2001 happened and homeland securty established with Ridge chosen to lead.

With Mark Cuban & Dan Marino you learn people always willing to
sell their names for buck or 2.

Intergrity :?: blowin in the wind

Finally is there a cluster of hockey fans in Kansas City who know how much it will cost to finance tickets and possibly seat licensining at the
NHL price range? Who fills the seats of new arena in KC? NOT, the
boxes, the seats?
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Postby HomerPenguin on Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:26 pm

penny lane wrote:Tom Ridge could have possibly made the route to the pens bldg easier but September 11, 2001 happened and homeland securty established with Ridge chosen to lead.


Forgive me, but Tom Ridge was given that job in DC with all of a year remaining in his eight year stint in office. If he was really going to get a new arena built in Pittsburgh, what did he spend his first seven years in office doing? Laying blame on 9/11 is simplistic and ignores the facts of the issue.
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Postby Daniel on Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:36 pm

Draftnik wrote:No other cities are offering the Pens a better deal. That is a fact, not my opinion. Believe what you want to believe but you are wrong.


I don't know how much leeway a city would have right now in making an offer, since the Pens have a lease. Not that they can't, but we don't know what cities are just watching this situation.

If the arena deal expires next June, without a new arena plan in place, I imagine a lot of cities will start making offers. Not that they will be better, but I can see competition. The best thing is to keep the team in Pittsburgh.
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Postby penny lane on Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:48 pm

HomerPenguin wrote:
penny lane wrote:Tom Ridge could have possibly made the route to the pens bldg easier but September 11, 2001 happened and homeland securty established with Ridge chosen to lead.


Forgive me, but Tom Ridge was given that job in DC with all of a year remaining in his eight year stint in office. If he was really going to get a new arena built in Pittsburgh, what did he spend his first seven years in office doing? Laying blame on 9/11 is simplistic and ignores the facts of the issue.


It was only during the summer of 1999 that Mario & group had
ownership of the pens. Before then I can't speak to the relationship
of Roger Marino with state & local politicos. Recall from 1994 people
still angry about pirates/steelers plan b. Not a climate to hear
about new arena.

County comminsioners Cramner, Larry Dunn & 1 other
guy... were also the ones who spoke of new arena to Mario's group.
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Postby Steve Latin on Sat Jul 22, 2006 1:56 pm

Bowser wrote:I'm not thrilled with this Fingold character, I trust Bettman does not want a 'small-market' to move on his watch just after the CBA/lockout battle with the NHLPA.


Not a fan of Fingold either... he seems to be very motivated by the bottom line and not much else. Even if the Pens stay, I have serious reservations about how he'd be as an owner... we might end up seeing our beloved franchise becoming the next Blackhawks or Bruins.

Then again, nobody could possibly be worse than McClatchey and the Nuttings. Then again, that's why I haven't watched baseball for 6 years.
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Postby Draftnik on Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:10 pm

Zscout wrote:Again - you never addressed the heart of the situation. You just make your personal attacks, because you do not like what is said.
The only reason the Penguins, a franchise that would only value at 137 million, would sell for over 175 million, is because it will be a *"free agent"* franchise. No matter what you say, several cities will get into the bidding process to move them. The owners will do what is best for their interests, and that has little to do with the city of Pittsburgh.
The city has no rights to the team. The city had several years to work and arena deal with Lemieux, and it failed. That is why Lemieux is selling, and that is why the city will have trouble convincing new owners that they can produce the best option to keep the team here.


Note Forbes valued the St. Louis Blues at 148 million - they sold for 150 million. Forbes valued the Penguins at 137 million - why is someone willing to pay 175 million for a franchise that twice claimed bankruptcy playing in the city of Pittsburgh?
http://espn.go.com/sportsbusiness/s/forbes.html


The Pens are worth $137M playing in Mellon arena. The Blues sales price of $150M included Savvis Center or whatever the St. Louis arena will be named. The Pens sales price will include the rights to operate a new arena in Pittsburgh. Fingold said the financing for the purchase can't be done until the franchise signs a lease here or somewhere else so the financiers can place an accurate valuation on the franchise. If you paid attention instead of listening to things fairies whispered in your ear you would know that, but I'm not surprised you are the 12th man on the deal team.
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Postby Stoosh on Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:14 pm

Fingold does seem like a somewhat-knowledgable hockey guy, so that may work to our advantage as far as the on-ice product is concerned (assuming he gets the team...at this point, he's assumed to be the frontrunner, but nothing's final). I wouldn't have a problem with him being a bottom-line guy as long as he doesn't lose his mind like Charles Wang from the Islanders or the Wirtz family from Chicago. Those guys make McClatchy look like...well, let's not go there.

But that leads me to the Nuttings and the Pirates. I don't get the sense that they know or care much about baseball. I'm not saying all owners of sports franchises have to be astute when it comes to the game their team plays (does Malcolm Glazer look like a football guy to you?). But it certainly helps if the ownership at least has a bit of a background in the game.
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Postby Zscout on Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:49 pm

Draftnik wrote: The Pens sales price will include the rights to operate a new arena in Pittsburgh. Fingold said the financing for the purchase can't be done until the franchise signs a lease here or somewhere else so the financiers can place an accurate valuation on the franchise.


Why would anybody buy a team and assume they would hold the rights to all revenue from an arena that is not even conceptulized, approved, or funded (other than in your loopy head). The new owners are bidding so high because they know they can shop the team to several cities. Of course, if the financing can't be done until an accurate valuation can be done on the franchise; than no arena here means a lease will likley be signed elsewhere to coincide with the sale of the team.
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Postby Draftnik on Sun Jul 23, 2006 10:29 am

Zscout wrote:
Draftnik wrote: The Pens sales price will include the rights to operate a new arena in Pittsburgh. Fingold said the financing for the purchase can't be done until the franchise signs a lease here or somewhere else so the financiers can place an accurate valuation on the franchise.


Why would anybody buy a team and assume they would hold the rights to all revenue from an arena that is not even conceptulized, approved, or funded (other than in your loopy head). The new owners are bidding so high because they know they can shop the team to several cities. Of course, if the financing can't be done until an accurate valuation can be done on the franchise; than no arena here means a lease will likley be signed elsewhere to coincide with the sale of the team.


You are the most clueless person on the board. You say the Pens will move to LV the very week the mayor and local business leaders say there is no way LV will build a new arena. You have no clue about how KC had to get a $50M contribution from AEG and another tens of millions contribution from Sprint to fund their arena and how that will prevent an NHL team from maximizing their revenues in KC. You listed a bunch of cities that either have other entities controlling their new arenas or don't even have new arenas. Bettman wouldn't even let a Hamilton bid go to the BOG before smacking it down. Pittsburgh with Plan B is light years ahead of any place but KC in terms of building a new arena and with Bettman wanting to keep the team here there is almost no chance the team will leave. It has always been that way.

What city is willing to build a new arena and give the Pens 100% of the revenue for all events? Only Pittsburgh.

What a miserable existence it must be to have such a negative depressed outlook on life.
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